|
Collosus
Tested this unit vs mech. Its still UP. Even with the upgrade, it easily losses straight up vs tanks. While it should be cost ineffective vs sieged up tanks, it IMO got owned just as much as pure Dragoons would have done, which is problematic due to the higher infastrucutre costs associated with the Collosus + the fact it has no AA.
The real probelm, however, is when terran mixes in Vultures. The collosus splash is just awfull and borderline useless vs mech. As Vultures doesn't clump up in a straihgt line when told to a-move, Collosus takes forever to kill them. This actually means that Dragoons are alot better at dealing with Tanks + Vultures, which IMO shouldn't be the case. Collosus should be desgined in such a way that it has high single-target damage vs armored units, and high effective damage vs smaller light/medium units (due to splash) --> Strong allround vs ground unit. This is unlike the Dragoon that takes a while to kill light/medium units.
Therefore, I believe two changes would be nice;
1) Small damage buff. I wanna see 10 vs light, 15 vs medium and 20 vs armored (from 8,12,16).
2) Splash should work as in Sc2. That will make it better in most real battles and especially vs Vultures. We can still maintain the "needs to stand still x seconds before splash works"-thing.
Our fear that the ability to step over friendly units turned out to be completely unjustified. In fact, While it now is more microable, it actually scales alot worse vs splash units due to the fact that it clumps up absolutely insanely when mixed with Dragoons. This makes it very weak vs Tanks if a-moved, which IMO is a good thing because it makes it so neccsary to flank before battles.
|
Unit test map "Starbow Tester 2.0" Updated!
|
On December 13 2013 02:11 Kabel wrote:
But I am still not 100% fond of removing AA vulnerability. It removes something players are so familiar with, which will lead to frustration?
As I have been saying - make it not a Colossus. People will expect a unit named Colossus to do certain things within the game - and those things simply make for a bad unit. Calling it something else, and using another model if possible will remove any preconceptions people might have. The idea of a midgame AOE unit with decent mobility but with great in-battle weaknesses is solid - the iconic Colossus features are not.
|
On December 13 2013 07:56 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2013 02:11 Kabel wrote:
But I am still not 100% fond of removing AA vulnerability. It removes something players are so familiar with, which will lead to frustration? As I have been saying - make it not a Colossus. People will expect a unit named Colossus to do certain things within the game - and those things simply make for a bad unit. Calling it something else, and using another model if possible will remove any preconceptions people might have. The idea of a midgame AOE unit with decent mobility but with great in-battle weaknesses is solid - the iconic Colossus features are not.
I don't think we can choose another model since we only have Immortal and Collosus available at robo tech, but I agree with giving it another name, however that's less of a priority for now.
|
Do we really want colossus to be strong vs mech? I thought it was suppose to be strong vs bio and hydra/ling.
Does not toss have enough tools vs mech already? I don't want the colossus to be a no-brainier "get it vs everything" unit.
|
TBH - the "non-colossus" is a midranged somewhat fragile expensive unit. That kind of unit is extremely easy to focus fire, and could never be great vs something like mech.
Sure, its damage is theoretically suited really well to break tank lines, but what good does that damage do when tanks can hit it at twice the range, and it is an obvious target.
|
On December 13 2013 15:38 Xiphias wrote:
Do we really want colossus to be strong vs mech? I thought it was suppose to be strong vs bio and hydra/ling.
Does not toss have enough tools vs mech already? I don't want the colossus to be a no-brainier "get it vs everything" unit.
I think the most complaint there has been about protoss is that it lacks another core-unit. Going around with zealots + Dragoons with one or two spellcasers can be tedious at some point. Getting the Collosus into the core compostiion when opponent has lots of armored units could be fun.
Also we already have the Reaver as the Robo unit to beat bio/hydra compositions (while being bad vs mech). The idea here is that we make the Reaver a bit worse vs armored units and make the Collosus somewhat better vs armored units in order to differnetiate them somewhat.
TBH - the "non-colossus" is a midranged somewhat fragile expensive unit. That kind of unit is extremely easy to focus fire, and could never be great vs something like mech.
Sure, its damage is theoretically suited really well to break tank lines, but what good does that damage do when tanks can hit it at twice the range, and it is an obvious target.
Upgraded Collosus doesn't take more than 40 damage per Tank shot.
|
why not do a heavy immortal kind of a thing then?
make it 400hp or something and 3armor and make it able to tank damage.. but dont give it enough firepower to slaughter zerg early game?
perhaps as a tanks first shots unit?
then the tank owner has to avoid shooting the useless unit 
|
that would actually be fun i think
with a slow movementspeed, and like 4range. Seems kind of easy to implement
Not necessarily 400hp, but high hp.
Good against armored, but still lose vs tanks
His role is tank mostly
But still decent dmg against armored, and kinda bad vs light and medium, but still tanks decent against them or something
|
On December 13 2013 20:38 Izerman wrote:why not do a heavy immortal kind of a thing then? make it 400hp or something and 3armor and make it able to tank damage.. but dont give it enough firepower to slaughter zerg early game? perhaps as a tanks first shots unit? then the tank owner has to avoid shooting the useless unit
Dragoon is too tanky IMO, so a high-hp Immortal wouldn't have a clear cut role IMO. Previously I suggested to buff Dragoon dps and nerf its HP in order to open up a role for the Immortal as a tanky slower 4-range unit. Something like 10% DPS buff and 30 HP less could maybe do it.
However, I like the idea of a Collosus more as it is more microintensive than an Immortal. But it just needs a much higher effective DPS than it currently has.
perhaps as a tanks first shots unit?
Too a large extent Zealots already fulfill that role. Difference here is that the Immortal will be tanky vs both Vultures and Siege Tanks.
|
On December 13 2013 21:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2013 20:38 Izerman wrote:why not do a heavy immortal kind of a thing then? make it 400hp or something and 3armor and make it able to tank damage.. but dont give it enough firepower to slaughter zerg early game? perhaps as a tanks first shots unit? then the tank owner has to avoid shooting the useless unit Dragoon is too tanky IMO, so a high-hp Immortal wouldn't have a clear cut role IMO. Previously I suggested to buff Dragoon dps and nerf its HP in order to open up a role for the Immortal as a tanky slower 4-range unit. Something like 10% DPS buff and 30 HP less could maybe do it. However, I like the idea of a Collosus more as it is more microintensive than an Immortal. But it just needs a much higher effective DPS than it currently has. Too a large extent Zealots already fulfill that role. Difference here is that the Immortal will be tanky vs both Vultures and Siege Tanks.
But tanks slaughter goons?
I mean.. goons are useful in openers and harass, dont buff them in those situations?
i would more see it like put a colossus at the third to make opponent have to send 6-8 vultures and a tank just to deal with it?
+ as i usually mentions.. keep the number of splash units down please.. 
|
On December 14 2013 02:38 Izerman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2013 21:10 Hider wrote:On December 13 2013 20:38 Izerman wrote:why not do a heavy immortal kind of a thing then? make it 400hp or something and 3armor and make it able to tank damage.. but dont give it enough firepower to slaughter zerg early game? perhaps as a tanks first shots unit? then the tank owner has to avoid shooting the useless unit Dragoon is too tanky IMO, so a high-hp Immortal wouldn't have a clear cut role IMO. Previously I suggested to buff Dragoon dps and nerf its HP in order to open up a role for the Immortal as a tanky slower 4-range unit. Something like 10% DPS buff and 30 HP less could maybe do it. However, I like the idea of a Collosus more as it is more microintensive than an Immortal. But it just needs a much higher effective DPS than it currently has. perhaps as a tanks first shots unit? Too a large extent Zealots already fulfill that role. Difference here is that the Immortal will be tanky vs both Vultures and Siege Tanks. But tanks slaughter goons? I mean.. goons are useful in openers and harass, dont buff them in those situations? i would more see it like put a colossus at the third to make opponent have to send 6-8 vultures and a tank just to deal with it? + as i usually mentions.. keep the number of splash units down please..
tanks slaughter everything.
The thing is - If you want to make the Immortal much more tanky than the Dragoon, then you IMO needs to give it some insane HP values --> that will probably cause unintended consequences for the gameplay.
|
well.. without intentionally going total blizzard here.. make it weak against everything else? make it like Megasuperduper armor but everyone does 150dmg extra to it?
|
Archon movement
Something feels wrong with the way it somes times. Below is an example. Look at the end of this replay where the Archon just moves forward in slowmotion before it attempts to attack. What causes this?
http://drop.sc/367827
Banshee
Tested this in the editor and I really have a hard time seeing it being useful atm. In TvP I feel that if you want to be aggressive with starport-tech, dropships are superior. Vs Zerg (when going mech), getting Vikings are a lot better due to the Mutalisk threat.
In TvT, they are probably decent though as terrans AA is pretty weak. Dropships, however, may still be better.
Regardless, I think it could use a range buff from 5 to 6 (similar as in Sc2), that will make it more easy to micro vs Hydralisks for instance. According to my testings, a small group of Hydralisks (3) easily beat a micro'ing banshee since the 5-range of the banshee isn't really enough to do anything. I tested this against Hydralisks that were upgraded with range (but no speed) and another time with speed (but no range). In both test results, the outcome made it quite obvious that the banshee isn't very good.
In terms of being usefull for worker-harass only, its also a bit worse than in Sc2 since it 3-shots workers, and I will also argue that if a unit only can kill workers, then its quite boring. What I like about Mutalisks is the fact that Mutalisks can harass mineral lines and engage a small-midsized army, and with good micro you can be cost effective. I think in order to obtain the same thing with Banshee's, it probably needs 6 range.
Cloack duration is 140 seconds in Sbow which is more than the 110 seconds in Sc2.
Another thing - I don't really understand why Cloak works differently than in Sc2. In Sc2, the mechanic works fine and it makes it possible to switch Cloak off when you want to in order to save energy. In Sbow you need to use Cloak for the entire 30-second duration, and then wait the cooldown before you can use it again. That feels quite pointless - especially as the 30-second duration is long enough in order to make detection a neccesity.
Psy Storm
Instead of cooldown - why not just give HT's a maximum energy of 100 so they only can use one Psy Storm per battle. IMO it feels very "unclean"/artificial that you need to wait 2-3 seconds before you can "spam" Psy Storm again. So if multiple Psy Storms in a row is the problem, I believe reducing maximium energy is simply a much cleaner and effective solution.
|
I agree with banshee-cloak, energy feels much cleaner, every race has detection available easy enough anyway. Like for toss it doesn't matter, if terran one-bases at start, you need to get detection anyway to fight off possible vultures.
|
Like I said earlier. I would like to see either:
1. The old 3-5 sec cloak which comes without an upgrade OR
2. The SC2 cloak.
What we have now is just very weird. I think the banshee could become more useful with solution # 1
|
On December 15 2013 00:00 Xiphias wrote:
Like I said earlier. I would like to see either:
1. The old 3-5 sec cloak which comes without an upgrade OR
2. The SC2 cloak.
What we have now is just very weird. I think the banshee could become more useful with solution # 1
Im not sure changing cloak is enough to make it usefull. I just find the current solution somewhat pointless. Hydra's for instance also almost always have an overseer with them when out on the map (due to spider mines). The main thing here is to make it possible for a banshee to be able to engage a small group of Hydralisks --> micro a bit, and then retreat after one kill or so.
Untill that is possible, I see very little usage for the banshee in the game.
|
Well if we have the 3 sec cloak with without upgrade then the banshee becomes more useful in the early game (before overseers), and then we might add a speed and / or range upgrade instead to make them more useful to kite hydras / marines later in the game.
|
Its enough with one flyingunit that functions like the mutalisk imo
Dont need a second one.
Banshee good in tvt, can have his use
I can see him beeing used strategally in tvp somewhat
He forces dragoon to defend, while his damage is still good. I imagine he will be good when terrans force is big, with banshees+tanks+vults.
"critical mass", forces air units from toss to, while his airunits suck vs ground mostly.
|
Was just messing around with the test map. Probably an old change, but I'm really glad you removed the Dragoon idle twitch. ><
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
