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On December 15 2013 00:23 Foxxan wrote:
Its enough with one flyingunit that functions like the mutalisk imo
Dont need a second one.
Banshee good in tvt, can have his use
I can see him beeing used strategally in tvp somewhat
He forces dragoon to defend, while his damage is still good. I imagine he will be good when terrans force is big, with banshees+tanks+vults.
"critical mass", forces air units from toss to, while his airunits suck vs ground mostly.
Yeh I know you don't like banshee's and thus don't want them to be played very much. But assuming we want to make it more viable, then I believe it needs to be able to kill other units in small micro battles.
In TvP, I think tank or Vulture drops are simply superior. In TvT, I think turrets deal pretty decently with Banshee's. I guess one advantage Wraiths had in BW was that they were faster than dropships and could pick them off. Banshee's, however, are probably a bit weaker in TvT than Wraiths are in BW and dropships are stronger in Sbow. Anyway, I think the range buff will have the least effect on TvT. It is mostly targetted at TvP and TvZ.
Well if we have the 3 sec cloak with without upgrade then the banshee becomes more useful in the early game (before overseers), and then we might add a speed and / or range upgrade instead to make them more useful to kite hydras / marines later in the game.
If cloack research time goes down to 110 seconds, then cloak finishes just shortly after the first banshee arives at zerg base. Zerg can always have an overseer or a spore crawler at that point in time, but never speed overseers. So the only effect of giving terran cloak for free is that they save 100/100. In terms of harass efficiency, it won't have a particularly noticeable effect.
Secondly, I don't believe those types of battles are particularly fun. E.g. a cloaked banshee kills 1 chanceless Hydralisks and then retreats. I feel like there is very little skill and uncertainty involed in those types of battles. I much prefer real micro battles rather than excessive use of gimmicks (which cloak IMO is).
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I love the banshee, wtf are you talking about
I see myself as a designer. Always what is good for gameplay, even if it means buffing a unit i despise
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Zerg burrow
Would be great if it received a button "unburrow"
If he press burrow twice, the units will burrow and than unburrow immediately afterwards.
In big battles it feels rather unconsistent with the lurkers.
In bw, they always burrowed first priority, if one unit were burrowed. They always burrowed the other units if u pressed that button.
This was bad ofcourse but great in battles
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Yes! That might explain why burrowing lurkers feels buggy. Please add this if possible.
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Sentinel can't move while using Glare. Makes it pretty bad (?)
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Also, make lurkers have higher priority. (Over lings / scourge / hydra / roach), now I have to select them individually to burrow them.
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Reaver AI targets bunker with nothing in it over scv's. Is that intended?
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A.I priority is the same as other units even if no units are inside the bunker
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@Stuff
+ Show Spoiler +Banshee cloak
- SC2 Cloak: More build order gamble - if T gets Cloak, and the opponent is far from having detection, the 50-60 seconds of Cloak energy can be enough to kill enough workers to win the game. Ha.ha.
- Shorter cloak with faster cooldown - Encourages more hit-and-run attacks and an other way of escaping from combats.
Unless anyone has a superior suggestion for the exact numbers for Cloak with shorter duration + a potential cloak upgrade,
I will just go for normal SC2 Cloak. Even though I do not like it. But its just easier and will not generate confusion.
I agree that Banshees can need attack range 6 so they can micro vs Dragoons, Hydras etc. One problem might be that they will be uncatchable vs early Marines in TvT. (If that is a problem) Maybe a range upgrade, or just starting range 6. (instead of 5)
Lurker burrow hotkey - Easy fix
Selection priority for Lurkers - Easy fix
Archon movement - Easy fix
Nexus/Upgraded Nexus - I got a bug report that if a Nexus with upgraded CB is selected together with a normal Nexus, both structures do not produce workers if ordered to do so. (Only one of them queues up workers)
When I try this in the editor, it seems to work fine. Both structures produces Probes if selected. Just as a Command center + Orbital command works. (Both structures produces SCVs if they are selected.)
Reavers shoot Bunkers - All units have an AI priority value. Units will attack enemy units with the highest priority. All fighting units and structures (like Bunker, Cannon etc) have a higher value than workers. Which means that if a Reaver, Dragoon, or whatever is dropped near a Bunker and SCVs, the bunker will be attacked first.
The easist way of changing this is to increase the time when a Reaver is unloaded and when it is able to shoot its first shot. This gives room for the P player to drop his Reaver, select it, focus fire on whatever he wants and KABLAM!1!!11!
@New units
+ Show Spoiler +People ask me what I think about the new units we use in the test patch - Roach, Marauder, Stalker and Colossus. (Thor and Swarm host are removed.) Two general things I think is important: (Apart from the exact balance) - New units must improve areas of the BW gameplay. (Since Sbow uses a lot of the BW balance and dynamics.) - Units must feel unique/fun/interesting enough to play with. Without going into details, I would say Marauder, Roach and Stalkers fullfill this ok enough to justify them remaining in the test patch. For example the Stalker: >>> + Show Spoiler +Gameplay improvements:
- Allows P to get an another unit vs Muta play, besides heavy Cannons or Corsairs. (BW-meta)
- Might become a part of the PvP meta game, as a way to deal with heavy Zealot play.
- Depending on how its ability ends up, it might become a unit that can engage Mech positions in a new way.
- Allows an additional harassment/scouting option for P in an other route of their tech tree
Fun-and-unique-factor:
- Has very high movement speed, fast attack speed with low damage per shot, only P unit who is extra good vs light targets, unique way of mobility with Blink etc. Perhaps as unique as it can become in a simple way, in comparison to the Dragoon. Which IMO is acceptable at least.
- Blink + fast mobility is quite fun. <<<
@And what about the Robo unit?
+ Show Spoiler +
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Ok I just found the largest bug ever...
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Chrono boost does not work on the upgraded Nexus. You can cast it, but it does not give any worker production bonus...
(It works on normal Nexus, Gateway and all other structures though)
I have no idea if this is something that has happend recently, or if it has been like this since the Nexus upgrade got implemented 2-3 months ago. Maybe it happend when I modified the macro mechanic values ca 2 weeks ago?
O_o
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On December 15 2013 21:29 Kabel wrote:Ok I just found the largest bug ever... >>> + Show Spoiler +
Chrono boost does not work on the upgraded Nexus. You can cast it, but it does not give any worker production bonus...
(It works on normal Nexus, Gateway and all other structures though)
I have no idea if this is something that has happend recently, or if it has been like this since the Nexus upgrade got implemented 2-3 months ago.
O_o
<<<
Haha, that can explain why pvt felt so terran-favored :D.
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Kabel what are your thoughts on changing the Collosus splash to how it works in Sc2. I feel the current line-splash generally has less utility in battles than the Sc2 splash - mainly in smaller-to-midsized battles which is where the Sbow-Collosus is supposed to pretty decent.
In general, I believe line-splash works better than "Sc2 Collosus"-splash in these two situations;
1) When you can flank
2) In defensive positions above ramps.
But since you can't really flank with the Collosus as its too slow + too low range for that and since we already have Reaver and Psy Storm as strong defensive AOE abilities, I don't believe the Collosus needs that as well.
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Bug fixes uploaded. I gotta go now but I will respond later-
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@Colossus
>>>+ Show Spoiler +Kabel what are your thoughts on changing the Collosus splash to how it works in Sc2. For those who do not know, the Colossus in Sbow attacks in a line like this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iufm9lc.jpg) It allows two "types" of micro for the Colossus: - shoot and back away immediately (this deals damage only to the target) - shoot, stand still and let the full attack happen during 2 seconds (this allows it to deal splash damage) (also gives a chance for enemy units to actually catch the Colossus - thus you benefit from a good position) That does not work with normal SC2 splash for a couple of editor reasons. (Unless we remove the "stand-still-to-deal-splash-damage-animation" of course) Sc2 splash also makes this ball of units much harder to attack into. As soon as Hydras, Goons or Bio gets a concave, they melt very easily. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YLHNTht.jpg) This type of ball scenario is not a problem vs mech due to siege tanks + spider mines. They can punish armies like this. Maybe Protoss can too in PvP due to Storm and Reavers. Zerg can kinda only punish it with late game spells: Ensnare + Plague. A similar scenarion can occur in late game PvZ in BW: Loads of Archons + Dragoons in one deathball. Also kinda lame IMO. Zerg can at least win those fights by having the terrain to his advantage. (Control ramps etc) The difference might be that Colossus deathballs benefit from superior mobility and negates terrain. Does this mean that I prefer our current version of the splash attack? Not really. I kinda feel that neither version is particularly great. But if there is no improvement in a change I make, then we might as well use what is already in the base game. I am trying other types of attacks atm, which hopefully can involve some more micro.
@Phalanx
>>>+ Show Spoiler +I tried your idea in the editor. The model looked surprisingly good as a fast moving hovering ground unit. And it felt very fun to control and micro. Maybe this can actually become something good. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sRtn9e3.jpg)
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+1 for the Phalanx. The idea fits into Protoss both thematically and in terms of what the race needs atm.
Protoss units are named after historical military groups, so phalanx is a great name - the model fits the robo techline nicely and the idea of a mobile sniping specialist might be really cool. Maybe with a lineshot - like Lurkers, but only damages the first unit it hits.
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@Phalanx
I´m just doing some loud thinking and speculation here. Might aswell post my thought process.
Here is what I try to achieve with the Stalker + Colossus:
+ Show Spoiler + - Add another tech tree choice vs Mutas (Since BW meta is heavy Corsair or Cannon play until enough Dragoons/Archons are made)
- Add a unit with early/mid game map presence potential (since everyone loves when action happens)
- Add a unit who can deal with mainly Marauder + Marine, without forcing P to rush for late game AoE (Reaver, Storm)
- Add another unit who can attack, harass and abuse mech play. (Since Mech sometimes can be lame to play against)
- Add another unit for PvP that changes the BW metagame of mass Dragoon vs mass Dragoon
What does the Stalker do out of all this?
+ Show Spoiler + - Tech tree choice vs Muta
- Unit with early/mid game map presence potential (fast enough to scout and harass since it starts with Blink)
- Abuse mech play by Blinking into Tanks and using the new unfinished Evade ability
- Might change PvP as a way to deal with Zealots, since it is good vs light
What does the Colossus do out of all this?
+ Show Spoiler + - Unit who can deal with Marauder + Marine, without forcing P to rush for late game AoE
- Might change PvP meta
- Unit with early/mid game map presence potential (Thats why I made it faster and cheaper, so players dare to move away with it.)
Would it be possible to fit all of this into the Phalanx?
+ Show Spoiler +This is just a thought: - The Stalker and Colossus are removed from the game. - Dragoon MIGHT become warpable the Warp gate instead, but will need to be balanced. (20 sec warp in??) (If this is even possible to make due to animations) Phalanx stats example+ Show Spoiler + - Built at Robo
- Costs 100/75 or something like this?
- 2 or 3 supply
- High movement speed (Close to a Muta or Vulture?)
- 120-140 total life
- Medium armor (Makes Dragoons, Hydras, Tanks and Marauders not insane vs them)
- Attack range 4-6
- Can snipe and do hit-and-run attacks like the Phoenix or maybe as the Diamondback in the editor
- Hover (to avoid spider mines, and it makes thematic sense since the model looks like it hovers)
- Damage... Hmm.. Same damage vs everything? Better vs Light units?
- Can attack ground and air - Add another tech tree choice vs Mutas
- Add a unit with early/mid game map presence potential
- It kinda can "abuse" mech play since mines do not affect it at least. (But something more can surely be done)
It does NOT:
- Change the PvP meta game (unless it becomes good vs light, since that can help vs speed Zealots?)
- Really force any new reactions from the races?
- Deal with Marauder + Marines (Not hard counter, just being able to fight them)
But it still will probably not be useful vs Bio. Unless it is swift enough to do hit-and-run attacks, kinda like Mutas, to dwindle the units down one by one.. (Requires open space to be useful and is not efficient in narrow chokes!) Might become a fun way of dealing with Bio, Hydra, Roaches, if done correctly in the editor. Requires micro at least.
Ok, what can we further do with it?+ Show Spoiler +Give it some kind of Blink/teleport ability upgrade.
- Would allow P a new way to fight vs Siege Tanks. Since this unit will not be as massable as Stalkers are, balls of Blinking stuff will not be easy to get.
- Would give it even more harass/scouting/map presence potential in all match-ups (and fuuun micro since everyone loves Blink & teleport, right? RIGHT?! :D)
Make something with its attack:
- Bounces on units?
- Line attack?
- Penetration?
- Its damage is very important. Good vs what? Bad vs what? Decent vs all?
- Fast attack speed, low dmg.. or slow attack speed with strong attack?
(depends on what type of micro we want to encourage)
Upgrade ability: "Levitate"
- Activate it to make it avoid attacks/spells aimed at the ground during X seconds. Siege Tanks, Lurkers, Nerve Jammer, Psi Storm do not affect it. (Either make Siege Tanks/Lurkers not able at all to hit them, or make only target fireing possible.) If the Phalanx does not avoid Spider mines by natural, this ability can do that aswell... and burrowed Banelings who detonate ^^
- This would furhter make it better vs mech. Good combo with Psi storm? Dodge enemy Psi storms? Pick off enemy lurkers?
It should not be fast enough to outspeed Vultures, Speedlings or maybe not even Mutas?
Just random thoughts
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1LxTLV8.jpg)
