EPTThe splash does nothing (1 hp dmg or less) and each missile shoots painfully slow.
Also, the scourge still turns around like an idiot, I feel sooo helpless with it.
Except for that, things are looking interesting!
[A] Starbow - Page 478
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
The splash does nothing (1 hp dmg or less) and each missile shoots painfully slow. Also, the scourge still turns around like an idiot, I feel sooo helpless with it. Except for that, things are looking interesting! | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Also, the scourge still turns around like an idiot, I feel sooo helpless with it. I feel this way to. But kabel loves it  | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
We did one muta vs one viking and the viking won, but only with 40 hp left...  | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On December 17 2013 07:22 Xiphias wrote: Yeap We did one muta vs one viking and the viking won, but only with 40 hp left... Plus it only splashes for 1 damage every what 2 seconds? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On December 17 2013 09:08 Foxxan wrote: Its irrelevant who wins 1v1 Well, yes. But when there is no splash dmg (or almost none) then 1v1 becomes more interesting. But. The viking should be good because it has slightly longer range (and can thus micro vs mutalisks) and because it has good splash dmg, not because it beats mutalisks 1v1. Also, if you try to shoot and scoot vs mutalisk you only get 1 (maaaybe 2) missiles off which does very little. Right now, mass mutas works wonders vs mech. Maybe even bio. Anyhow, please fix it Kabel | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
You dont know mech Mass mutas does not work wonders vs mech. Viking is supposed to support your armee, not be a one-man-armee(one type armee) And they support wonders. Infact, they are imbalanced. They support well as hell. Cheap as hell. They do decent aoe to. they do not do 1 damage. Wtf? They do 4? 25% of 16 is 4 Thats not bad Mech players should go goliaths, not relie on the viking itself. It neglects mutas to well. If they go bio, well marines support vikings damn hell good | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
I think it's important to know what we want out of the viking, do we want a corsair-ish unit? then it needs to be faster. Do we rather want a valkyrie-ish unit, then remove speed, give it a bit more armor/hp and bigger splash. Probably best to try some out in unit-tester before changing. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I just tried him he is very incosisistent in his aoe. Sometimes he do 3aoe sometimes 2. I dont know Will think about some suggestions for him i have something in mind, but will think more. Its sort of valkyrie-style, not sure how kabel feels about it. Myself feels quite good, and i believe it encourage micro since u need to protect those units. And at the same time it works differnet from corsair which can moveout on their own while valkyrie cant do that the same Mutas vs viking could be fine if it was more valkyrie-style, and also if mutas could get a auto-split ability like before since its so hard to split them. Although the ability should not split alot just tiny bit | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On December 17 2013 17:32 Foxxan wrote: No! You dont know mech Mass mutas does not work wonders vs mech. Viking is supposed to support your armee, not be a one-man-armee(one type armee) And they support wonders. Infact, they are imbalanced. They support well as hell. Cheap as hell. They do decent aoe to. they do not do 1 damage. Wtf? They do 4? 25% of 16 is 4 Thats not bad Mech players should go goliaths, not relie on the viking itself. It neglects mutas to well. If they go bio, well marines support vikings damn hell good Are you reading what I am trying to say? Please read before responding. I am saying that the viking is suppose to do 25 % splash damage and it does nothing atm. It is broken. Not in a balance sense, in a literal sense. It does not work. It needs to be fixed in the editor. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
you say viking is broken You didnt say bug, error or anything like that Write more clear when u write stuff Please read before responding. Please stfu | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
"No! You don't know mech" and "Please stfu" does not really help on calming me down and making good design atmosphere. I agree that I could have phrased myself better. Please agree that so could you. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On December 17 2013 17:34 SolidSMD wrote: I feel the same way about vikings, even with the speed-upgrade muta's catch up too quickly and doing backshot-micro only gets your units killed. That together with very little splash. I think it's important to know what we want out of the viking, do we want a corsair-ish unit? then it needs to be faster. Do we rather want a valkyrie-ish unit, then remove speed, give it a bit more armor/hp and bigger splash. Probably best to try some out in unit-tester before changing. I agree that its weak/unliable in the early game phase when your severely outmatched against Mutalisks harassing your base. However, they do have a very interesting advantage to make up for that. When the Muta phase is over it is very usefull as a harass-unit that can pick up overlords or harass bases. IMO that is quite an important advantage as Vultures aren't particlarly usefull as harassing in the later game (after the zerg has set-up bases with spines) or has well positioned Hydralisks around the map to defend against Vulture runby's. So I think we shouldn't view Vikings as a unit that "easily" prevents Mutalisk harass. Rather, it should be seen as a support-unit to turrets + Goliaths early game vs Mutalisks that later on (when you get critical mass + speed upgrade) gives the mech player a strong harass option. But there is indeed a bit to figuring out regarding build orders and gameplan when going mech in Sbow as it requires a more refined playstyle than when going bio. | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
I kind of agree with solids point about corsairs are too powerful if they can mess with your eco too. I would rather see something it can be useful in the heat of battle. Why not a more of supporter role? like the broodwar spell that disables anything under it? about the Colossus. What were so wrong with making it a giant tank? make it cost ridicoulously much and 10supply. so its hard to mass. a great thing with mech is its super powerful if they splash dmg across a surface, but you can negate some of it by splitting units. but then maybe it slows down mid-game armies? | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On December 17 2013 23:46 Hider wrote: I agree that its weak/unliable in the early game phase when your severely outmatched against Mutalisks harassing your base. However, they do have a very interesting advantage to make up for that. When the Muta phase is over it is very usefull as a harass-unit that can pick up overlords or harass bases. IMO that is quite an important advantage as Vultures aren't particlarly usefull as harassing in the later game (after the zerg has set-up bases with spines) or has well positioned Hydralisks around the map to defend against Vulture runby's. So I think we shouldn't view Vikings as a unit that "easily" prevents Mutalisk harass. Rather, it should be seen as a support-unit to turrets + Goliaths early game vs Mutalisks that later on (when you get critical mass + speed upgrade) gives the mech player a strong harass option. But there is indeed a bit to figuring out regarding build orders and gameplan when going mech in Sbow as it requires a more refined playstyle than when going bio. I fully agree that it shouldn't be a magic unit to stop muta, but this is from experience in a real game where i had 4 vikings with speed upgraded (rushed it out when scouting spire) to zerg's 8-9 muta, they did not feel too useful to be frank. Kiting is not possible because the muta's catch up quickly and they are definitely no unit that the muta fears. So atm they don't feel beter at all than the goliath, so why bother making vikings and instead mass out more goliath's. I think it is necessary for them to have a role: either they are slow and beefy and a couple are strong enough for the muta to actually not want to trade and instead fly around picking off things. Otherwise they are a tad faster and still do little damage, but then i can at least micro them around so i at least put a clock on the mutaharass (zerg can pick off stuff but he will lose a few muta's during his harass), i don't think this is a good solution because the vikings might become a corsair 2.0. Atm the muta player tries to trade and if he succeeds your vikingcount gets reset and then the game spirals out of control => GG, not a fun dynamic. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
If the Colossus is suppose to be decent vs mech, it needs one kind of balance. If it rather shall be more useful vs bio, hydras/roaches, gateway units, it needs another type of balance. I am not sure you are aware of it, but it deals 30 damage vs everything. If it shall deal different dmg vs different armor classes, and full damage vs shields, it will take me a lot of hours to get to work. (Need to create new attack animations, each for every different damage type and make sure the splash works correctly.) And if I create all this, and it turns out it was not needed, then I wasted loads of hours on unnecessary work. Time I kinda don´t want to waste now. Well my frustration is more related to the fact that Sbow is supposed to be released in 40 days, and I believe the main problems related to the Collosus are balance-issues. Introducing new unts at this time just doesn't feel like the right thing to do. So I suggest we fix that asap by spending some tweaking stats untill we get the desired outcome (slightly stronger than Dragoon in battles). Now ofc, if it isn't supposed to be strong vs mech, that's a design choice, but from reading your posts, I don't think that's the case (?) When that is said, I will try to look into the editor-thing when I have time. I fully agree that it shouldn't be a magic unit to stop muta, but this is from experience in a real game where i had 4 vikings with speed upgraded (rushed it out when scouting spire) to zerg's 8-9 muta, they did not feel too useful to be frank. Kiting is not possible because the muta's catch up quickly and they are definitely no unit that the muta fears. So atm they don't feel beter at all than the goliath, so why bother making vikings and instead mass out more goliath's. Yeh I had same experiences against Dirty mulitiple times who keeps telling me how imbalanced Vikings are..... (that was back before latest patch when I think Viking HP was 125 - Its 140 now). But I think they still are a bit better than Goliaths right? I mean we also saw how poorly a small group of Goliaths fare vs Mutalisks, so they are kinda in the same booth in that regard. Viking, however, has the advantage of being able to fly away while Goliaths die very quickly. Anyway, if Viking splash is bugged, it should ofcourse be fixed before we evalute the strenght of it. I think it is necessary for them to have a role: either they are slow and beefy and a couple are strong enough for the muta to actually not want to trade and instead fly around picking off things. Otherwise they are a tad faster and still do little damage, but then i can at least micro them around so i at least put a clock on the mutaharass (zerg can pick off stuff but he will lose a few muta's during his harass), i don't think this is a good solution because the vikings might become a corsair 2.0. Atm the muta player tries to trade and if he succeeds your vikingcount gets reset and then the game spirals out of control => GG, not a fun dynamic. Yeh I think I have experienced something similar: If your consistent with your Viking control, and obtains a critical mass then your absolutely fine vs Zerg. However, if you have a little mistake, then the zerg player can just absolutely steamroll you. But I think this type of gameplay is just very hard to get rid of without big sacrificies. If the alternative is too replace the Viking with a "thor'ish" super slow/super strong AA-unit that is unmicroable, then I prefer the microable but unforgiving Viking. And I also think this will become less of an issue as strategies and build orders in TvZ mech becomes more figured out as the terran player will learn how and when to build turrets/Goliaths + when to get Vikings. But yeh untill we get too that point, playing mech TvZ may feel a bit frustrating. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On December 17 2013 23:51 Izerman wrote: people.. people.. I kind of agree with solids point about corsairs are too powerful if they can mess with your eco too. I would rather see something it can be useful in the heat of battle. Why not a more of supporter role? like the broodwar spell that disables anything under it? about the Colossus. What were so wrong with making it a giant tank? make it cost ridicoulously much and 10supply. so its hard to mass. a great thing with mech is its super powerful if they splash dmg across a surface, but you can negate some of it by splitting units. but then maybe it slows down mid-game armies? Why would Protoss need such a unit? What would it do for the race placing it as an extra unit in robo? The reason we have been trying a more mobile cheap Colossus is because Protoss lacks a midgame Robo unit to bolster the main army. The thing is... Colossi have a really bad design to start with, and it will be stuck with this unless we change it to something completely different (hense my points on changing its name and model to avoid confusion). @Foxxan: Next time you feel angry about something said in this thread - take five minutes to read out loud what you are saying and wonder how others will read it. Degrading to insulting others, will always make your previous points seem weaker, and make you look like a douchebag - no matter how justified it is. You have really good points, and great ideas - but your temper has more than once made you look a bit stupid. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
While they also got their techlab buffed to while no compensation for protoss While its true that in the "long run" they are balanced, there is a bit of assymmetry early game. This assymmetry favours protoss quite a bit. First of all, protoss can spend around 2 CB's on range upgrade --> 20 seconds faster. Yes, they are sacrificing a bit of econ by not CB'ing the Nexus, but this one easily pays off as it relative to BW gives protoss around 10-15 extra seconds where they have range and terran doesn't have sieged up tanks. Further, be aware that the fact that Nexus upgrade finishes faster than OC gives protoss two advantages; 1) Protoss can start building probes from Nexus faster 2) Nexus starts regenerating Nexus faster The combo of these two advantages more than outweights the disadvantage of Scv-calldown being instant while CB on Nexus having a delay-effect. In fact, one may argue that protoss gets the second advantage for free. The 2nd advantage provides roughly 7.5 of extra energy for each Nexus. If we multiply that by 2 (as you have two Nexus's), thats equal to 1 CB, which means that protoss only has one less CB available for the economy. Secondly, they can CB gateway constantly and get a 100% boost. Terran only gets a 50% boost on factory. So if both boosts their production constantly, then it takes roughly 1minute and 5 seconds before protoss has catched up the 29-second headstart the terran got by his techlab-switch. So this means that relatively to BW, we have the following diferences; 1) Protoss uses 1 less CB's on worker production than terran. That's roughly a 1-worker disadvantage 2) Protoss can start attacking the bunker 10-15 seconds earlier 3) Terran has fewer Marines in Bunker. 4) Terran has a slightly higher Siege Tank/Dragoon-ratio for roughly 1 minute. 5) Runby's (behind bunker) are more scary in Sbow than in BW as protoss can rift home. Overall, this seems pretty damned balanced relatively to BW. I feel 35 energy is to small in mid/late game while at the same time i feel they unlock their seperate scan to late I suggest to make it 50energy, and 36BT on ebay Yeh terran almost has maphack early game/early midgame. 50 energy would probably be better and then reduce the research time of the ebay upgrade. The latter just takes too long atm, which feels like an indirect nerf to bio (as they need to use the ebay for bio upgrades). Ehm you say viking is broken You didnt say bug, error or anything like that Write more clear when u write stuff Broken = Something doesn't work as it is supposed to do. I think most people can interpret that as a bug/error as well. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
I think it's decently balanced right now if you open up fe into siege tank. After the usual dragoon pressure both terran and toss seem to be on equal footing, terran had a slightly bigger income during it but toss can take a quick third because he knows terran can't put pressure yet. Seems balanced and interesting enough given the eco-greedy openings, there are some small things both terran and toss can do in these microbattles to get an edge, but nothing game ending. About the pathing system, I think many players agree that it's really annoying and is not helping the game at all. We had a long try-out for this system and I think it's time to let it go. I'm pretty sure Foxxan can write walls of text about how much he hates it, if you wanna have a go at it, PM him.  | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Lets play later? Hider,solid? | ||
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