EPTThe system itself could be fine - but it may be implemented too harshly.
[A] Starbow - Page 480
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
The system itself could be fine - but it may be implemented too harshly. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
December recommended me to disable the movement pathing. Only Idle spread will remain. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Highest priorities - Collosus - Abduct - Graviton Beam (would like to see a completely different ability for the Corsair) Lower priorities - Reaver worse vs armored units - Correct me if I am wrong, but if Sentinels upgrade-abiltiy require both a Fleet-Bacon and an upgrade thereafter, then its borderline useless. Maybe, if it didn't require an actual upgrade, but only the Fleet-Bacon building? - Vulture 4 range (not sure if it already has been changed?) - Sentinel can move while using Glaire (again not sure if it has been fixed) - Tranfuse should be used on finished buildings instead of Nurturing Swarm Stuff I would like to see tested post-release (abilities that work fine balance-wise but have a small design-flaw) - Irradiate as a splash-damage ability only - so it doesn't kill single-target units like Defilers and Lurkers). Instead, the SV can receive a small compensation-buff (in some intelligent way. - Redesign of Plague. Yeh, I know this hasn't really been mentioned before, but I don't believe that just because korean-casters hyped it of, that it is immune to criticism. I previously told Dirty that the ability seemed quite boring, and I think he agreed with me. Maybe this is also an ability that suffers somewhat from smart-casting as it makes it easier to use and hence removes the uncertainty/skill ceiling of it. I would like to see a redesign here in order to make remicro possible - I have an idea with giving one unit a "disease" that spreads it self, but probably hard to implement and as it doesn't have a high priority, I leave this for now. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + - Collosus - Abduct - Graviton Beam (would like to see a completely different ability to the Corsair) - Colossus - Abduct can be SC2 abduct in case no one has any better idea. Your idea sounded fun Hider, but too hard to me to make. - I don´t mind changing Graviton beam if anyone has a better idea. So far people have requested Disruption Web from BW, but without Fleet Beacon upgrade. This means that both Vessel + Sentinel need another spell, since both uses variations of Disruption web. And I don´t want to invent, discuss and build three new spells... -_- I consider to just let Graviton beam deal no damage, or only damage vs light. - Reaver worse vs armored units - Reaver worse vs armored units can happen if we get the new Robo unit to work properly. (So Reavers are not insanely lame hard counters vs Bio, as in BW) - Correct me if I am wrong, but if Sentinels upgrade-abiltiy require both a Fleet-Bacon and an upgrade thereafter, then its borderline usage. Maybe, if it didn't require an actual upgrade, but only the Fleet-Bacon building? Or just make the ability better for its required tech? I have never seen it used in a game. - Vulture 4 range (not sure if it already has been changed?) Is this necessary? - Sentinel can move while using Glaire (again not sure if it has been fixed) I don´t want Sentinels to be Observers 2.0. Glare is a channeled ability that reveals and detects units within a large area around itself, but it must stand still while doing so. It is suppose to be a weaker version of Observers and I prefer that it works in a different way, and also in slightly different situations. If it is too bad (?), I rather buff it than just make it work exactly like Observers. For those who wonders what I talk about - check out the Sentinel in the Starbow unit tester and try Glare. - Tranfuse should be used on finished buildings instead of Nurturing Swarm Seems like you mixed up the words? Nurturing Swarm = another name for Transfuse. (due to the new graphic) It heals target unit/structure by 75 life. If used on a morphing structure, it speeds up the morphing time. - Irradiate as a splash-damage ability only - so it doesn't kill single-target units like Defilers and Lurkers). Instead, the SV can receive a small compensation-buff (in some intelligent way. You mean so it stops at 1 HP? It is a risky thing to do for the balance. But if it can help to stop the lame massing of Vessels vs every late game unit Zerg has, then I am willing to try it. BUT how is the compensation buff suppose to be? It can be used on any kind of unit? Irradiate vs P and T! : D - Redesign of Plague. Yeh, I know this hasn't really been mentioned before, but I don't believe that just because korean-casters hyped it of, that it is immune to criticism. I previously told Dirty that the ability seemed quite boring, and I think he agreed with me. Maybe this is also an ability that suffers somewhat from smart-casting as it makes it easier to use and hence removes the uncertainty/skill ceiling of it. I would like to see a redesign here in order to make remicro possible - I have an idea with giving one unit a "disease" that spreads it self, but probably hard to implement and as it doesn't have a high priority, I leave this for now. XiA has already built an ability like this in one of his maps. I might be able to just rebuild it exactly like his since it is a very fun ability. Requires some hours of work and testing though. But might happen. Additional things to add to the priority list: + Show Spoiler + Banshee cloak and range Two suggestions: - It starts with range 4 or 5. It starts with cloak. Cloak lasts maybe 8 seconds and then has a cooldown of maybe 24 seconds. Can upgrade range bonus at the Starport. - It starts with range 6. Can upgrade SC2 Cloak at the Starport. I see advantages and disadvantages with each suggestion. Just need to decide. Comments? Carrier Neiter I, December or any of the map-makers I have contacted at SC2mapster.com knows how to make Starbow Carriers act like BW Carriers. Which makes them very bad and lame in Sbow. (Carrier micro does not work) Two ways: - Invent another way of making Carriers work better (Foxxan has suggested a thing, but it does not work well enough) - Replace Carrier with Tempest | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Or just make the ability better for its required tech? I have never seen it used in a game. Yeh Carrier tech isn't very good so in order to research this ability you need to invest a lot of money that doesn't give you any other side-benefits. So if this ability will ever see usage, then it needs to be extremely good and I am not sure I like the idea of making abilities OP to compensate for high tech costs. It is a risky thing to do for the balance. But if it can help to stop the lame massing of Vessels vs every late game unit Zerg has, then I am willing to try it. BUT how is the compensation buff suppose to be? It can be used on any kind of unit? Irradiate vs P and T! : D Well I want to remove the extra damage it does to the single-target, so it does the same damage to the targetted units as nearby units. Indeed, it could have balance complications, and thus I didn't put it into the stuff I want to see improved prerelease. Nurturing Swarm = another name for Transfuse. (due to the new graphic) It heals target unit/structure by 75 life. If used on a morphing structure, it speeds up the morphing time. The point here is that it doesn't work. It doesn't heal the HP of buildings (at least not Spine Crawlers). I don´t want Sentinels to be Observers 2.0. Glare is a channeled ability that reveals and detects units within a large area around itself, but it must stand still while doing so. It is suppose to be a weaker version of Observers and I prefer that it works in a different way. If it is too bad (?), I rather buff it than just make it work exactly like Observers. I tried it and thought of any way that could be usefull in practical situations, but... I just can't think of one situation where I believe its worth the effort, so its very close to useless atm. Further, we are changing a design that works pretty well in Sc2 and thus raises the learning costs in an unnessary way (I believe we should only raise learning costs if we can increase gameplay value). If we don't want Sentinel detection to be too strong, its just a much better solution (IMO) to make the energy cost/energy drain really high. This way Glaire becomes a backup-solution only rather than something you need to rely on. When that is said, I am not sure I can follow the reasoning for not making Sentinel a strong detector? Right now you have to get Robo really early vs terran - Why not try to add some more build order variety and make Robo less of a neccesity? Further, isn't it better for the amount of harass/action in the game that players use Sentinel instead of Observers. Observers can't - unlike the Sentinel - harass or do damage in battles, Is this necessary? If this is the best replication of BW balance, then I believe we should do that. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
I don´t mind changing Graviton beam if anyone has a better idea. So far people have requested Disruption Web from BW, but without Fleet Beacon upgrade. This means that both Vessel + Sentinel need another spell, since both uses variations of Disruption web. And I don´t want to invent, discuss and build three new spells... -_- I consider to just let Graviton beam deal no damage, or only damage vs light. The spell on the vessel has been either too strong or too weak and has never felt like a fun/interesting ability anyway. And the spell on sentinel (if it's still the damage reduction shield?) is a deathball ability while disruption web is an anti-deathball ability with a thought-out possibility for early micro-dances (corsair harass vs hydra def) that can give small edges to players => promotes action in pvz similar to the dragoon vs bunker/siegetank in pvt. If we keep any of these three abilities i think disruption web wins clearly. @banshee I actually like the concept of the 5 range banshee with 8 second cloak and +2 range upgrade at the moment. | ||
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IeZaeL
Italy991 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xbo0klx.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ohgwk81.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U8sC13h.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T6UkXvm.jpg) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
@banshee I actually like the concept of the 5 range banshee with 8 second cloak and +2 range upgrade at the moment. Sorry misread the banshee suggestion. Yeh Im fine with that suggestion as well. Letting the banshee start with a weaker cloak and instead give it a range-upgrade seems like the optimal thing. The spell on the vessel has been either too strong or too weak and has never felt like a fun/interesting ability anyway. And the spell on sentinel (if it's still the damage reduction shield?) is a deathball ability while disruption web is an anti-deathball ability with a thought-out possibility for early micro-dances (corsair harass vs hydra def) that can give small edges to players => promotes action in pvz similar to the dragoon vs bunker/siegetank in pvt. If we keep any of these three abilities i think disruption web wins clearly. I have to wonder though - If Nerve Jammer isn't particularly exciting, why would Disruption Web work a lot better? Another thing - Can we make Disruption Web good enough in order to make it usefull vs terran? It would feel a bit lame if it you only wanted to go Corsair vs zerg. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The spell on the vessel has been either too strong or too weak and has never felt like a fun/interesting ability anyway. And the spell on sentinel (if it's still the damage reduction shield?) is a deathball ability while disruption web is an anti-deathball ability with a thought-out possibility for early micro-dances (corsair harass vs hydra def) that can give small edges to players => promotes action in pvz similar to the dragoon vs bunker/siegetank in pvt. If we keep any of these three abilities i think disruption web wins clearly. Check them out in the unit tester if you need to be updated. I don´t mind Disruption web on Corsair. But I do mind having to fix one more Vessel spell and one more Sentinel spell. If anyone here has good ideas that are easy to build, then I am willing to consider it. But it requires a full solution across the board. Just adding Disruption web will only give me two new headaches. There is also an AI bug related to abilities who disables the attack of units in an area. I have worked around it with Nerve Jammer by giving them a 75% reduction in damage, instead of disabling the attack. I don´t know how to solve it properly, and I do think there might be the same issue with Disruption web. @leZaeL + Show Spoiler + Looks great ! Please send me the file as a PM! I can´t wait to upload it! | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
Looks very nice! @Gossen Not at home till friday, sorry :/ I will try to think of better spells. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I think 8 sec cloak for banshee is a bit long if it does not require upgrade. Well, if the cooldown is like 30-45 sec then sure. I just remember the old 5 sec cloak with such short cooldown that you could dart in and out all the time. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
I don´t mind Disruption web on Corsair. But I do mind having to fix one more Vessel spell and one more Sentinel spell. If anyone here has good ideas that are easy to build, then I am willing to consider it. But it requires a full solution across the board. Just adding Disruption web will only give me two new headaches. Yeh good point. As a temporary solution, what about just removing the damage and instead increase the range of Graviton by 2 or 3. This way it could perhaps become usefull for neutralizing units in larger battles as it could lift them from a relatively safe distance. This could give them a bit of utility in both TvP and ZvP. Scout Along with the changes to the Corsair, what about making these two changes to the Scout; 1) It starts with the ability to attack lifted up units [noone wants to invest in Scouts + research this upgrade in order to attack lifted up units. The value of this ability simple isn't high enough, so I propose we just let them start with it for free]. 2) Give them an upgrade where they do +15 damage vs buildings. This makes the Scout good at taking out turrets/spores --> synergizes with Sentinel, DT's, Warp Prism, Arbiter and too a lesser extent Corsairs and Carriers. So instead of protoss just having to attempt to avoid turret rings, they now have a way of killing them in the late game (ofcourse assuming that your Scout control and multitasking is good). | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On December 19 2013 03:28 Hider wrote: Yeh good point. As a temporary solution, what about just removing the damage and instead increase the range of Graviton by 2 or 3. This way it could perhaps become usefull for neutralizing units in larger battles as it could lift them from a relatively safe distance. This could give them a bit of utility in both TvP and ZvP. Scout Along with the changes to the Corsair, what about making these two changes to the Scout; 1) It starts with the ability to attack lifted up units [noone wants to invest in Scouts + research this upgrade in order to attack lifted up units. The value of this ability simple isn't high enough, so I propose we just let them start with it for free]. 2) Give them an upgrade where they do +15 damage vs buildings. This makes the Scout good at taking out turrets/spores --> synergizes with Sentinel, DT's, Warp Prism, Arbiter and too a lesser extent Corsairs and Carriers. So instead of protoss just having to attempt to avoid turret rings, they now have a way of killing them in the late game (ofcourse assuming that your Scout control and multitasking is good). @corsair Then it still stays a numbers game. Graviton doesn't allow countermicro and it is no usable when their numbers are bigger than yours. @Scout In the lategame carriers deal fine with turrets imo. Not too sure about this, it would also only fit if corsair doesn't have disruption web. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Then it still stays a numbers game. Graviton doesn't allow countermicro and it is no usable when their numbers are bigger than yours. Its useless without support units indeed.. However, its not easily countered if opponents units can't get into the range of Corsair. That's the real difference between that solution and the current where opponents units can always target it. I agree its not the best solution ever, but I think its an improvement over the current. In the lategame carriers deal fine with turrets imo. Well this isn't really about Carriers. This is about giving the Scout a harass-oriented role that synergizes with other units in a way that is good for the gameplay (to increase action and multitasking). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Dropships are bugged. When you click units to move nearby the dropship, the dropships picks them up, which means the "aoe-pickup size" of the dropship is too large. This. This is what i meant when i talked about it before, i dont know if anyone understood me | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On December 19 2013 04:22 Hider wrote: Dropships are bugged. When you click units to move nearby the dropship, the dropships picks them up, which means the "aoe-pickup size" of the dropship is too large. Its useless for it self indeed. However, its not easily countered if opponents units can't get into the range of Corsair. That's the real difference between that solution and the current where opponents units can always target it. Well this isn't really about Carriers. This is about giving the Scout a harass-oriented role that synergizes with other units in a way that is good for the gameplay (to increase action and multitasking). * Imagine a pvz where you opened corsair, so you have like 3-4 corsairs and a couple zealots. The zerg happens to pressure you with hydra. Is it gonna help you at all vs 10-ish hydra's? nope Is it gonna help you vs 6-ish hydra's? it might, you mass pickup hydra's and hope the enemy makes micro-mistakes with his hydra's. Is this interesting/fun micro? nope Imagine a pvz where you opened corsair, you are harassing the zerg with 6-ish corsairs. If zerg has few hydra -> you pick them up and kill the overlords with the other corsairs. Micro possibilities? nope If zerg has a moderate amount of hydra -> picking few up is not gonna help anything -> either no harass or kamikaze harass. in any case getting 2 spores at each mineral line sounds like the best answer -> boring gameplay * Counter to lategame scout-force: make more turrets. Interesting ability? I don't think so. Mind that disruption web can also help deal with turret rings. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The spell on the vessel has been either too strong or too weak and has never felt like a fun/interesting ability anyway The spell on the Vessel has basically been Disruption web for over a year. (Disable attacks of ground units within an area) Why is D-web more fun on the Corsair? @Graviton beam nevermind @Dropship I see no such value in the editor. No idea what causes it :S | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On December 19 2013 04:54 Kabel wrote: @Disruption web The spell on the Vessel has basically been Disruption web for over a year. (Disable attacks of ground units within an area) Why is D-web more fun on the Corsair? Because it works vs static defense, because it counts for both parties and purely in relation to the units where you'd see it used. The ability does not mix well with pvt metagame (mech vs zealot/dragoon) and with siegetanks in general. I imagine it would be a tad more interesting if it did actually work for both parties, but it still does not feel too interesting when you combine it with siege tanks (if you want me to go into further detail about why it feels like a bad ability with siege tanks, then just ask, i just assume everyone understands what i mean). Disruption web is most interesting in small microbattles, so on the vessel this does not see play. Only concern I have is what do we do with lurkers, does disruption web work vs it or not? Might feel OP if it did, I am not sure. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Is it gonna help you at all vs 10-ish hydra's? nope In situations where you have 6 zealots and 4 corsairs vs 10 Hydra's - maybe a bit. But this isn't really where I believe Corsair needs utility. Im generally thinking more about mid-large sized battles where you have enough support so targetting the Corsairs isn't very easy. Is this interesting/fun micro? nope Agree its not very good. But I just put it in as a temporary solution as I do believe it is has more mid/late game utility (in smaller numbers) than the current Corsair. If zerg has a moderate amount of hydra -> picking few up is not gonna help anything -> either no harass or kamikaze harass. Im not sure why you are so focussed on picking up Hydralisks? I guess I could have communicated this more clearly, but I see the ability is designed to neutralize more expensive units (Lurkers and Siege Tanks). Protoss has lots of AOE-abilities but no real single-target ability, so I think this fits in somewhat decently here. Because it works vs static defense, because it counts for both parties and purely in relation to the units where you'd see it used. I think the main thing here is the combo of neutralizing static defense + higher mobiltiy of the Corsair. Giving either the Corsair or the Scout an anti-static defense ability could severely buff their harass potenital in the later game. I see no such value in the editor. No idea what causes it :S Maybe the dropship model is just bugged (?) Can you replace it with a medivac without healing? Its quite annoying. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On December 19 2013 05:13 Hider wrote: In situations where you have 6 zealots and 4 corsairs vs 10 Hydra's - maybe a bit. But this isn't really where I believe Corsair needs utility. Im generally thinking more about mid-large sized battles where you have enough support so targetting the Corsairs isn't very easy. Agree its not very good. But I just put it in as a temporary solution as I do believe it is has more mid/late game utility (in smaller numbers) than the current Corsair. Im not sure why you are so focussed on picking up Hydralisks? This ability is designed to neutralize more expensive units (Lurkers and Siege Tanks). Protoss has lots of AOE-abilities but no real single-target ability, so I think this fits in somewhat decently here. Corsair is a major unit in pvz earlygame, that's why it's relevant. I agree it's better than the current corsair, but disruption web is much better than both the current version and the hypothetical version we're discussing right now. If the purpose is to neutralize expensive units like lurkers and siege tanks then disruption web does exactly the same, only better. The enemy can actually countermicro (even if it's not easy for lurker/siegetank) and disruption web is much more interesting in pvz earlygame than this lift would ever be. I think the main thing here is the combo of neutralizing static defense + higher mobiltiy of the Corsair. Giving either the Corsair or the Scout an anti-static defense ability could severely buff their harass potenital in the later game. yes | ||
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