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@revelation
In any case it does its job if that was the criticism  .
I think those issues are mainly psychological.
If it's casted on muta, the muta probably cannot hit where toss is not, but that doesn't mean muta can't do damage, for example on winter spirit you still have the high ground behind the minerals in the nat, this is a great spot to harass, even if toss knows you're gonna harass there. I also think this ability was in the game when we still had the OP stalkers, you have a much tougher time to defend vs muta with current dragoon/stalker, so this ability is more justified, toss does not need to spread himself thin.
Revelation vs vultures/dropship/banshee. This is an issue where terran feels like he can't do anything at this moment, but that isn't necessarily the case. This can be a great way to distract the toss, because you know he can see you coming and he's making himself ready for catching those units. So fake it and harass somewhere else with other units.
Revelation on reaver, I think it is a good thing that reaver can't harass, reaver has been too dominating in pvp and this is a great 'nerf' and allows other playstyles to be viable.
In any case, I don't think 30-60 seconds of no harass with said unit(s) is that big a deal and will not stale the game, it will rather make terran more active at taking out the sentinel. To me this feels like a metagameproblem that will figure out itself.
*something to note:
This ability is not that strong that it should require fleet beacon tech, this was a big problem atm. With revelation stargate-openers become decent without forcing you deeper in that tech-route.
@vessel
Yes, I was thinking about the ghosts ability, problem with the ghost is that it's only on 1 target and this means you'd need many ghosts (and much spamming and hoping the other terran does not have detection, otherwise your ghosts get smacked down and your investment does not pay off) for it to be useful. I have liked the idea behind this ability, but it is not practical on the ghost.
I also think it's a good thing that it is only useful vs some certain units, this means vessel has less massing potential, we want it to have supporting role. In zvt/tvt lurkers/siegetanks are core units, so it will still see enough play if the numbers are well balanced. With this line-up it feels like SV would be useful in all 3 match-ups without being soo good that you want to mass them.
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Some fast notes on revelation.
I still think people will be able to harass with their dropship/mutas or w.e
even if they have reveleation on them.
Harass is not only "suprise attacks", it can be tactical/strategic attacks to.
Making him busy in main while you attack somewhere he doenst have defence
Hitting a frontalattack and than multitask with a harass in main.
There are still many possibilities.
I feel pvp for example will become more strategic with it.
And another reason to try stargate there
It will be really helpful in pvz, which i think is good,
escpecially if we succed in making zerg have some micro power against criticalmass of corsairs/vikings
and fix some other stale-metathings->which will encourage zerg to go more agressive.
I like this spell
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Plague
Kabel, positively surprised you liked the idea of a disease-plague. I didn’t expect you to be willing to look at this ability (yet) since it hasn’t received much attention, but I have been thinking of changing for at least a couple of months now.
To be more specific, I am thinking it will work like this;
1) You cast the new Plague on one unit.
2) After 3 seconds, the HP of the unit will drop down to 1 and it will spread the new Plague through to nearby friendly units.
3) After 3 seconds their HP will drop down to 1 and they will spread it through to other nearby units.
4) This plague can affect a maximum number of units of 15-20 (so one “Plague” doesn’t have too big of an impact).
Is this the type of disease you thought about as well?
Sentinel’s 3rd ability
I have to say I kinda like the way the upgraded ability works. At least I prefer it to Nerve Jammer as it has an effect on how you micro your own units after the spell has been casted. I just think the upgrade-costs are way too high. Fleet Bacon is already like 300/200 and then you need to spend extra money to research it. If it was just 300/200 I think a lot more players would get it, and it would also reduce the transition costs to Carriers which would give them a slight indirect buff.
Regardless of whether Revealuation adds less action or not, I think it’s one of the least exciting abilities in the game.
Abduct
Is there any way we can add a bit more micro/uncertainty to Sc2-Abduct. In Sc2, Abduct is extremely OP vs mech if you don’t have critical mass of Vikings, so without a doubt it needs to be much weaker in Sbow than in Sc2. What would happen if it was 6 or 7 range? Wouldn’t that make it a bit difficult for Viper’s to pull out Siege Tanks protected by Goliaths? At least it would force the Vipers to take damage during the process. Then in situations where the Goliaths are a bit out of positions, the Viper’s can get “free” Siege Tanks.
Some fast notes on revelation.
I still think people will be able to harass with their dropship/mutas or w.e
even if they have reveleation on them.
Harass is not only "suprise attacks", it can be tactical/strategic attacks to.
Making him busy in main while you attack somewhere he doenst have defence
Hitting a frontalattack and than multitask with a harass in main.
There are still many possibilities.
Well but ceteris parbius, I think the most likely effect is less action. I mean if you assume that there are two types of attacks:
1) Normal attacks
2) Attacks where you are catching your opponent OOP,
then we are removing the latter type of action for a certain period in the game. If "normal action" doesn't increase as a reponse to the decline of the latter --> less action in the game.
At least that's my experience from TvP, I simply don't attack with my main army while the ability is casted on me. But regardless, that's not my main issue with it. Rather, I simply think it is just really boring.
I feel pvp for example will become more strategic with it.
And another reason to try stargate there
Im not sure I follow your argument for Revealation. As I understand you, you argue that Revealation makes the Sentinel (and Stargate-tech) better thus adds for more options. However, that's purely balance-related, and the same outcome can be obtained with a different spell (as long as it is strong enough).
Another problem with Revealation is that it takes away the Sentinels only real battle-ability, thus making the Sentinel a hit and run unit rather than a spell-caster and a hit-and-run unit.
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I will be online in ca 4 hours on B.net. Then it will take some days before I can be online again. Would be fun if we could get some games going.
I´ll upload a patch with normal pathing + tons of bug fixes. (All the stuff that broke recently)
@Plague
Something like that yes. (Single target Plague who spreads between the units.. seperate them to avoid the plague from spreading. )
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Sentinel’s 3rd ability
I have to say I kinda like the way the upgraded ability works. At least I prefer it to Nerve Jammer as it has an effect on how you micro your own units after the spell has been casted. I just think the upgrade-costs are way too high. Fleet Bacon is already like 300/200 and then you need to spend extra money to research it. If it was just 300/200 I think a lot more players would get it, and it would also reduce the transition costs to Carriers which would give them a slight indirect buff.
Regardless of whether Revealuation adds less action or not, I think it’s one of the least exciting abilities in the game.
Well but ceteris parbius, I think the most likely effect is less action. I mean if you assume that there are two types of attacks:
1) Normal attacks
2) Attacks where you are catching your opponent OOP,
then we are removing the latter type of action for a certain period in the game. If "normal action" doesn't increase as a reponse to the decline of the latter --> less action in the game.
At least that's my experience from TvP, I simply don't attack with my main army while the ability is casted on me. But regardless, that's not my main issue with it. Rather, I simply think it is just really boring.
Im not sure I follow your argument for Revealation. As I understand you, you argue that Revealation makes the Sentinel (and Stargate-tech) better thus adds for more options. However, that's purely balance-related, and the same outcome can be obtained with a different spell (as long as it is strong enough).
Another problem with Revealation is that it takes away the Sentinels only real battle-ability, thus making the Sentinel a hit and run unit rather than a spell-caster and a hit-and-run unit.
There are 2 ways the current sentinel ability can be used.
For an early attack or mid/late-game.
Early game you're better off using warp prisms to break the terran's natural. (cheaper and better + you will need robo for observer anyway), so even if it only requires fleet beacon, it is a big investment.
Mid/lategame it is either strong enough to get it or it is not. If it is strong enough then it will become a no-brainer ability where you spam the screen with it and move in with your army. Strategic depth = 0
Also abilities do not need to be exciting to be interesting. Observer ability is not exciting, yet it is a good addition to the game. Vultures placing mines is not exciting, yet it is a very important piece of the game. I don't think that the excitement-factor of the spell should be your main focus. Rather look at gameplay, strategic possibilities etc.
About attack where you are catching your opponent OOP:
If players play and scout perfectly with the tools they have, then nobody gets caught off guard (p can put probes/pylons on the map to scout incoming drops, or observers/scan/...). This part of the game exists purely because humans are not perfect and can be distracted to not see things coming. Usually harass does more damage whenever a player gets caught off guard, but it can still do damage even if the person is prepared, the outcome is controlled by multitasking and micro.
So revelation does not necessarily implicate less action, rather different action.
As for your experience, this is what i meant with psychological problem, you think you can't do anything with your army, so you will not try. I believe this get more figured out after a while.
The same outcome can be obtained with a different spell. This is correct, but it is not an argument why we should not add revelation.
Revelation supports the army in an indirect way, by giving it vision, but rather than just moving the sentinel with your army you have to control it separately. This is imo much more interesting than yet another supporting caster that you move with your army and spam its spells during the battle.
You should look at it like the equivalent of terran's scan, but harder to perform.
@plague
sounds interesting
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Tested Roaches and Lurkers synergy vs Protoss
My reaction based after 15-20 battles in the unit tester with various unit compositions = Positively suprised!
The optimal zerg midgame composition is Roaches in front, Hydra's behind Roaches, and Lurkers behind Hydralisks.
This means that there is some type of synergy with Roaches and Lurkers, so we avoid the dominance-problem. Balance-wise (relatively to BW), this will probably favor zerg a bit, but after taking into account the extra infastrucutre-costs related to the Roach Warren, its not that significant. At least, I believe a balanced Collosus is enough to work as a counter-weight in that regard.
Something like that yes. (Single target Plague who spreads between the units.. seperate them to avoid the plague from spreading. )
Yeh exactly. In theory that sounds like zergs version of Psy Storm. If it works that way then it would be awesome. But in practice ofc it may turn out to be frustrating to play against. That could especially occur if the visuals aren't strong enough, so you have trouble noticing/seeing the plague'd units before its too late.
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Anyone up for a game at 21 CET tonight ? So i can finally see some games on Bloody ridge ^^.
Tau cross' going well , 2/3 of map finished !
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I will be on soon. Just fixing an update
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New update uploaded on the test patch
Almost only bug fixes. Pathing is normal SC2 pathing + idle spread. One new feature is that Dropships can once again upgrade to pick up sieged Tanks. (Like we used to have in the game a while ago.) They are ofc unsieged when unloaded again. Hopefully will this solution be much better. Thanks to DeltaV at sc2mapster.com for the trigger!
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On December 20 2013 03:37 Kabel wrote:
New update uploaded on the test patch
Almost only bug fixes. One new feature is that Dropships can once again upgrade to pick up sieged Tanks. (Like we used to have in the game a while ago.) Hopefully will this solution be much better. Thanks to DeltaV at sc2mapster.com for the trigger!
As a tech-lab upgrade?
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^ looks great!
edit: if anyone could stream some games that would be awesome, I'm currently not at home so I can't play, but I can watch! :p
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Not home either, so I won't be able to cast 
Kabel, I'll look at the pathing since I did the porting. Nice work IeZaeL!
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I will not be online for some days now. Maybe visit TL though.
I still aim to "release" the game at January 21. I need to wrap this thing up. After the release we can still get more balance patches. But they will be careful and accurate. I will however not add or remove units or anything crazy like that. It will be what it will be.
I know many of you want me to change spell A, B, C and unit D, E, G into H, I, J. But I need to put a limit on it. Otherwise I will go on for all eternity. Some things in the game are good, some things are decent, some things are bad. Thats how it goes.
Here are larger things of the game I consider to improve:
(Apart from detail balance, bug fixes and graphical improvements)
Zerg
- Maybe improve the SC2 Abduct we use
- Maybe improve Plague
- Maybe improve Dark Swarm (it still feels very messy to play with)
- Maybe improve Scourges turn rate....... 
Terran
- Maybe improve Ghosts & its Shock spell
- Maybe improve/swap Nerve Jammer & modify Irradiate
- Check out if Siege Tank Drop works well or not. (It is sooo fun but probably imba)
Protoss
- Complete the Robo unit. (Colossus?)
- Maybe improve the Stalker further (especially its secondary ability)
- Maybe add some kind of Shield battery (that encourages unit defence rather than mass Cannons)
- Protoss air! (I explain in the spoiler)
+ Show Spoiler +We have:
- Corsair with Graviton beam
- Scout with Phase Missile (An ability that destroys energy)
- Sentinel with Null ward, detecion spell, and time-slow spell within an area
- Carriers with SC2 micro (makes them much worse and more lame to control, compared to BW Carriers)
- Arbiters
If Carrier micro can´t be fixed, they will either remain weak (and can be compensated in an other way..) or will be swapped for the Tempest. Many of the regular players (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!) have expressed disatisfaction with Graviton beam and Protoss air in general. It is probably an area of P that can become more interesting, preferably with small methods. I will stay open to suggestions.
And the reason I consider to improve those things is due to what our playtesting has showed. This is at least what I aim for, if there is time.
And of course: Thanks for all games tonight. It was really fun. First time in a while I was online. Great to see so many people joining us!
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or will be swapped for the Tempest.
Tempest as in a very long range unit? Sounds worse than the current Carrier - Let's just stick to that one IMO.
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Can someone specify what the problem is with Dropship + Warp Prism? Some kind of bug when they try to pick up units?
Tempest as in a very long range unit? Sounds worse than the current Carrier - Let's just stick to that one IMO.
It must of course not be the SC2 Tempest. Just use that unit as a base and then modify it to fit into Sbow.
Again, this is only a maybe. All depends on what is doable with the SC2 Carrier. (Especially the micro part)
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Yeah, tempest is a mess, even when trying to change the values to "fit" Starbow. Decembers, can you fix carriers?
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Dec said that he can't fix the carrier. Letting it start with the catapult upgrade might be a band-aid fix. In either case, the SC2 carrier is still a lot more exciting of a unit than any version of the tempest (these were Dec's words as well as mine...)
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It didnt work to increase the "launch interceptor to instant" for the carriers upgrade?
It doesnt fix him 100% but its one big way on the right track.
edit: If this doesnt even work somehow. Making them instantly launch out from the carrier!
Then i would maybe test a tempest(?)
Give him 8range. Almost same stats as carrier, so it will be micro relationship goliath vs tempest.
MAke goliath cost effecient vs him. And hydras to actually
20damage
2attackspeed
8range
(?)
Can someone specify what the problem is with Dropship + Warp Prism? Some kind of bug when they try to pick up units?
The load/unload radius is very big.
You click to the right of the dropship for example, and he unloads units inside it even tho you dont hit the dropship/warpprism with your units
Maybe the same problem is with overlords, iam not sure
Viking
Iam thinking here abit, if he got abit more vulnerable like the valkyrie. He stands still for 3-4seconds.(He will need support till he reaches bigger number, almost like now)
At the same time, increase his aoe slightly, and his range.
And let him start with the speedupgrade
To compensate for the potential irradiate nerf, and to compensate for the wraith.
Maybe we cant 100% compensate but atleast something for the wraith
The biggest reason is to encourage zerg to be able to do micro against critical mass.
If terrans irradiate gets nerfed, it will maybe be hard to fight guardians for example, and if he go bio its hard to kill carriers or bcs and stuff since he cant techswitch to goliaths, and there is no wraith
8range
8explosive damage(x2)
= 8total aoe vs light
=16total vs armored
Maybe against armored its a bit to much.
At the same time, armored air units usually have alot of base-armor.
So lets say viking shoots at carriers health. The carrier redudes 8total damage from him. Maybe he will need his aoe actually against armored units.
Anyway.
Guardians have 8range
Carriers(tempest) have 8range
Viking can here fight against many things
This way, zerg can micro even against a speed viking.
By building a valkyrie to deflect a warpprism, i dont think its that easily either since he stands still.
He will be faster than a warpprism till it have speed tho, but i think it should be pretty okay.
I believe the wraith would still be better fighting off guardians for example since he can micro quite easy, and high single-target damage.
Anyway, maybe it can help terran. And if reactor stays, he can actually make 2from one starport which is quite huge in the long run to, and dont forget his transform.
Abudct
I mentioned a suggestion for kabel about this one.
Redesign it abit, to be more micro.
Lets see if he likes it or hates it.
I wanna encourage zerg as i said before, to do micro against critical cors/vikings,
with this spell
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pc6ZAL8.png)
