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when you have both an upgraded nexus and an unupgraded one in your control group, only the upgraded nexus build probes.
@ Sentinels upgrade
Not sure I like the idea that it requires the Carrier building to research. That's like 300/200 - not something you wanna invest in, and takes a lot away from the utility of the Sentinel.
Also, tanks are still 13 range.
Queen
Kabel I mentioned yesterday that I thought inject was harder/more unforgiving than the other races macromechanics. There are two reasons for this;
1) As terran I am not particularly punished for not using macromechanics every 25th second, becasue I can use excess energy on scv calldown and overcharge at the same time + scan also has decent utility. As protoss you can use CB on multiple buildings I believe. When you go queens, however, you have less nearby macro hatcheries, which makes spending excess energy harder.
2) The queen probably has the worst secondary abilities of all races.
Suggestions
I previously thought it may have been better to make inject take as long time as in Sc2 and make it 25-energy. However, I think this solution may be better;
- Queen inject buffed to 65-70% boost.
- Protoss gets access to faster legspeed/hydra speed delayed a bit.
- Tech lab cost reduced --> buffs terran production.
These changes add more diversity to PvZ openings (this allows 1gate expand to be safe vs hydra bust I believe - as long as you use chrono on army and not economy). As a compensation, it makes alot of sense to just buff Queen inject. This will have the most significant effect on the early game where zerg players should be able to hit their injects very well --> it means zerg will have more Hydra's out for instance. So compared to an identitical situation from BW, zergs have more Hydra's, but they no longer have like a 2 minute time frame where they have speed against slowzealots.
This IMO creates a new better balance as it makes it gives more room for protoss diversity early game without breaking the game.
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How can we balance scv calldown?
65-70%, wouldnt that make zergs macro better than terr,toss?
Iam assuming zergs inject is balanced with 60 now?
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On December 12 2013 01:37 Foxxan wrote:
How can we balance scv calldown?
65-70%, wouldnt that make zergs macro better than terr,toss?
Iam assuming zergs inject is balanced with 60 now?
Yes they are pretty balanced in the case where you inject really really well throughout the entire game.
However, as time goes on it becomes easier to fail on your injects. The punishment is pretty high here as you typically don't have several macrohatcheries near your queen that you can use to spend the additional energy. (Note maybe in the latelate game where you have high income you will build multiple macrohatcheries, - however, for instance during the 10-15 minute mark I believe it is normal to how 1 hatchery in main, 1 in nat, and then the rest of your hatchereis as expansions on the map).
This is contrary to how terran and protoss macromechanics works. Further, queens secondary abilities are quite weak, and I actually believe we could make creep tumour regenerate new tumours faster.
But by buffing inject, we will give zerg a buff (relative to BW) in the period where zerg will hit their injects very well - that is the early game. To balance the game, terran gets cheaper tech lab and protoss gets faster access to leglot-speed (both of these changes will have the most impact on the early game as well).
The reason I like these changes are that I previously was a bit fearsome of what would happen to PvZ if we made it a lot easier for protoss to do leg-lots timings. Would it make protoss too strong early midgame and not allow the zerg player to drone up?
But by going with 65-70%, I believe zerg will be able to squeeze out 1 or 2 extra drones or another Hydralisk relative to BW which should create approximate balance.
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Roach vs Lurker
A bit unsure about the roles of these two units? Obviously vs mech I think Roach may have utility with Lurker being pretty bad. Vs bio it is probably the reworse. However, what about vs protos? Both synergizse with Hydralisks. Both have burrow as a harass tool and are decently mobile. Both = tier 2.
I feel like they fulfill the same function vs protoss (?)
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They are more similar vs toss than vs other races, but I do feel there is enough difference between them. Lurkers are much more immobile and thus (hopefully) stronger. You cannot contain with roaches the same way you can with lurkers / lings + scourges.
I do like how zerg now has a new tech switch in roaches as well. Not just mutas or hydras?
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I think they function quite different against protoss
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Just some comments on what you have written recently:
@Vessel being able to pull units
+ Show Spoiler +I have received some instructions over at sc2mapster.com regarding Dropships being able to picked up sieged Tanks. I think I might get it to work properly now. Just need a free day in the editor since it requires a bit of work. When we had it in the game a while ago, it was IMO very fun. It added more micro to mech play and harassment.(But there were some bugs with it unfortunately) Maybe it needs an upgrade for balance purposes.
@Abduct+ Show Spoiler +
I will look into it to see editor limitations. Or rather my limitations with the editor xD
@Queen having bad secondary abilities
+ Show Spoiler +If that is the case, maybe Nurturing swarm can receive a small buff. Maybe Creep spread should be more encouraged too. So there is something more useful to do with the Queen energy, apart from only Injecting.
Atm, Creep heals all Zerg ground units life by 1 per second. (All Zerg units heal 0.27 life per second anyway.) If Creep bonus is too strong from the start, it kills early attacks vs Zerg.
One potential way is to add a Lair/Hive upgrade. All Zerg units double or tripple life regeneration or armor is boosted by 1, or something similar. A Zerg who has spent APM creeping the entire game can now gain benefits from it. Also adds some more utility to Overlord creep spread, maybe as a way to heal up wounded units after a combat.
@balance + Show Spoiler +
Atm the ingame discussion is focused on Terrans opening vs P and Z. Tech labs affect this a bit, compared to BW.
Tech lab requirements seems to make Bio weaker early vs Z, while mech become stronger vs P, for a couple of reasons.
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@hiders abduct
i like this, would like to see it in the game also
@Queen secondary abilities
I found his abilities quite good.
His creep spread gives vision, faster queens. Faster statis defence.
I feel we will see this come in hand more later on, at 2 or 3bases.
Also very handy in general against drops
@Creep giving more life reg
I feel its kinda unfair it gives so much reg, "for free".
Anyway, why not add some defend things from toss, and terran then?
TOSS: shield battery, from broodwar. Tweak it just a tiny bit and i think it will be "viable" for sure.
Maybe chronoboost can be used on it to reg his "energy" faster.
I have a tiny suggestion if u like this
TERRAN:
Using his macro boost on a bunker gives more repair. Something along this line`?
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On December 13 2013 00:28 Foxxan wrote:
TOSS: shield battery, from broodwar. Tweak it just a tiny bit and i think it will be "viable" for sure.
Maybe chronoboost can be used on it to reg his "energy" faster.
I have a tiny suggestion if u like this
This. I do not understand why Blizzard never considered this as a way to give Protoss a defensive advantage in the actual SC2 instead of the bandaid fix that is the MSC. I never understood why they removed this at all, to be frank.
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On December 12 2013 21:25 Foxxan wrote:
I think they function quite different against protoss
For the past couple of days I've been tring to think of situations where you would want to build a Roach but not a Lurker and vice versa, or just situations where the protoss would react differently (in terms of his strategy) to whether the zerg is going Roaches or Lurkers, but I simply couldn't really come up with anything really. Would you mind being a bit more specific?
@ Queen
The main thing here is simply that it is alot easier to spend excess energy well with terran and protoss macromechanics than with zerg macromechanics. The only buff I would want for creep spread is just that it should regenerate active tumours faster so a high APM player can spread creep even faster. That seems like a more "fun" solution than just buffing Hp regernation outright.
Nuturing swarm, while great, has limited usage since you only can use it on morphing structures. That means that it isn't usefull for 90% (or so) of the game.
The inject larva buff I suggest will/should balance zerg relative to protoss/terran in the midgame assuming roughly a 70% inject efficiency from the zerg player. It will, however, give zerg a buff in the early game if we assume a 80% efficiency in the early game. To reobtain balance, protoss and terran gets these small buffs with cheaper tech-labs and faster access to legspeed.
@ Collosus
I think this unit should have highest priority atm. and Kabel we both seem to agree that it has to problems right now; 1) Useless vs static defense and 2) Too clumpsy.
So I wonder what your plan for this unit is now? I believe it functions quite differentiated from the Reaver (after this unit gets nerfed vs armored) and the Dragoon for these reasons;
- Dragoon has low DPS vs light/medium units. Collosus can due to its splash provide higher overall DPS
- Collosus is more fragile to target-firing than the Dragoon. Therefore, it is therefore also neccsary that it becomes unclumpsy (IMO that implies ability to walk over friendly units).
- Reaver is worse vs armored clumped up units than the Collosus (e.g. vs Maurauder/Roach you would prefer Collosus).
So I still really want this in the game and I presented my suggestions with 2 variations. One of them is that we completely remove AA vulnerability, w/ the other one we just make upgraded Collosus immune to AA static defense.
So I wonder Kabel, how are you gonna proceed from now on with the Collosus?
@ Corsair
I think both Dirty, Solid and I has expressed dissatisfaction with Graviton. Personally, I disliked both using it and playing against it. Kabel asked why Graviton harass was different from Muta harass and I believe these are the differences;
1) Mutalisks can engage a larger Marine squad. To do that, however requires skills from both sides. Corsair micro isn't really as much skills as simply spamming. Further, I actually believe that a small groups of Marines (when faced against a larger mutalisks squad) can manage to kill 1 or 2 Mutalisks off before they get killed them selves. This isn't possible when going up against Corsairs.
2) Mutalisks "are supposed" to counter small groups of units out on the map as we are buildng upon the BW balance core, and they did that in BW. However, when you also give that ability to the standard BW Corsair build, then you might just be changing early midgame balance. Personally, I prefer that we buff builds that were unused in BW (such as 1gate expo vs zerg) rather than the standard forge into Corsair build. Thus, IMO we can't give the Corsair an ability that makes it noticeable stronger in the early midgame.
Solid's suggestion was to give them its BW ability for free. I would like to hear Dirty's thoughts of this one as he seems to know BW the best (?).
I believe that it should be replaced with a unit that has mid/late game battle micro utility.
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@Roaches
+ Show Spoiler +If we are talking specific vs Protoss, some things I´ve seen Roaches do in ZvP
- Help to break ramps with burrow move ability
- Catch and snipe enemy units or pockets of enemy units (Reavers, HT, Colossus)
- Unburrowed to seperate parts of Protoss armies from each other (in the middle of the P deathball sometimes)
- Overall just some mobile hit-and-run & assault stuff vs quite heavily defended Protoss expansions
Would any of those situations make Z choose to build Roaches over Lurkers? Not sure.
Dragoons however do quite fine vs both Roaches + Lurkers, and I its a good unit to get vs both Lurkers + Roaches. Keep in mind Reavers might get a splash reduction vs armored (to make it not as insanely brutal vs bio), Colossus & Stalker are still unfinished, Storm & Archon might need more work (In case any of those things can help to encourage one choice over the other.) Maybe factors like Roaches being cheap in gas & earlier and less expensive in tech than Lurkers can help too.
@Queen with creep spread
+ Show Spoiler +Yes I think faster Creep tumors can be a fun thing, especially since Sbow creep is much worse than SC2 creep.
@Colossus
+ Show Spoiler +I´ve played around with its attack to make it more swift/fun to control. I have looked at how Dec have created some of the stuff for Sbow, like the Immortal. But I have not found anything that feels good. I´ve also played around with some variations of a potential ability. (Instead of passive shield) Other than that have I not put more thought into it. Yes, it might be an important unit considering Z and T have Roach + Marauder in the midgame. But I am still not 100% fond of removing AA vulnerability. It removes something players are so familiar with, which will lead to frustration?
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But I am still not 100% fond of removing AA vulnerability. It removes something players are so familiar with, which will lead to frustration?
Not sure. Perhaps if we still had sc2-vikings and corrupters in the game - Then it would definitely be somewhat confusing. Not sure whether it would add to frustration, however, as it doesn't need the AA vulnerability in this game due to its much lower range.
Persoanlly, I just enjoy straight up "fair battles" (mauruader vs 6-range Collosus) alot more than the hardcounter scenarios of Scourge > chanceless Collosus.
Anyway, what are your thought on my alternative suggestion on simply making the "hardened shield" upgrade also neglect damage taking from turrets/spores?
I´ve played around with its attack to make it more swift/fun to control. I have looked at how Dec have created some of the stuff for Sbow, like the Immortal. But I have not found anything that feels good.
I think the most important thing in making this unit feel less clumpsy is simply the ability to walk over friendly units. Without this ability, it will always be unmicrable in mid-large sized battles since it will have Dragoons around it (both have same units).
This will make it scale better, but I honestly believe the effect of this in real games will less than what most people expects - This is due to the fact that protoss in Sc2 is designed to turtle, while BW'ish protoss has much more aggressive options. So I definitely believe that the increased microability that this will provide outweights the threat of increased deathballness.
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This is the test map, and since I have nothing better in mind for the Colo we might aswell try it. Takes only a few minutes to change in the editor. I will have some bug fixes up anyway in ca 2 hours.
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Hider u wanna replace corsair with another unit?
@colossous
I feel its alot funnier to play with to if it can move like he moves in sc2.
BUT potential problem for opponent to take it down as zerg and bioterr
There have been plenty of suggestions around it
1) When his weapon is on cooldown, he moves ALOt slower
2) His autoattack more micromanagable, and worse if a.i controls it->
He sees a unit, he aims at that spot(even if enemy moves away) and shoots his shoot. Quite powerful shot in a circle aoe instanteously(i think circle aoe fits better)
Plenty of stuff imo to make on the colossous, giving him big weaknes and making him fun to play with.
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Hider u wanna replace corsair with another unit?
No just Graviton. What are your thoughts on giving the Corsair Disruption Web for free instead of Graviton?
BUT potential problem for opponent to take it down as zerg and bioterr
Not sure there will be a problem here - I tested Hydralisk vs Collosus (without no support) and the Hydralisk could easily get shots off against a Collosus that kited it. So I don't think we need to make other (complicated) changes to go a long with implementing the ability to walk over friendly units. At least not yet (maybe testings will proove me otherwise).
So to sum up: I would like to see these two changes in next patch and then we reevalute afterwards;
1) Ability to walk over friendly units
2) Some fix vs Turrets and Spores.
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Not sure there will be a problem here - I tested Hydralisk vs Collosus (without no support) and the Hydralisk could easily get shots off against a Collosus that kited it
Ye ofcourse?
I talk in bigger battles, when colossous can move behind his own units
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On December 13 2013 03:19 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Not sure there will be a problem here - I tested Hydralisk vs Collosus (without no support) and the Hydralisk could easily get shots off against a Collosus that kited it Ye ofcourse? I talk in bigger battles, when colossous can move behind his own units
Well the current implementaiton is that he needs to stand still for full effect which at 6 range gives him a clear weakness to target firing.
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I agree with faster creep spread but no big buffs, the map vision is a big advantage in itself for surrounds/flanks/etc.
Why is graviton bad?
I'm only gonna speak about pvz because it is non-existant in pvt and pvp anyway.
Corsairs already have the basic ability to hamper the zerg economy, aka sniping overlords. Adding an ability that focuses on sniping workers: if you have a ton of corsairs they suddenly become too ridiculous because all your ovy's die instantly and all your drones are dead => too big snowball effect, if you have few corsairs then you want to focus on either killing drones or killing ovy's, because you do more effective damage this way, knowing graviton has a cooldown => best option is to focus on overlords.
Using graviton to fight many units: there is no micro to do here, you only have to hope your corsair doesn't get targeted during his lift, so what happens is: if you have few corsairs you cannot snipe lone units since they don't die quick enough to get away with the corsair. The graviton also doesn't have any synergy with the early units you'd make vs zerg either (zealots).
Using graviton to fight few units: the zerg can't do anything, his units are lifted and he cannot do any countermicro.
Why would disruption web be a good thing?
If tweaked right this would make the toss player able to get some free shots off while the zerg moves his hydra's a bit so he can fire again. This allows few corsairs to be useful and few hydra's to be useful against corsairharass, it encourages little micro that is in no means very punishing to either player, but can make the difference. If tweaked right this also gives some synergy with zealots. A big amount of corsairs is no longer unkillable for the zerg.
possible problems:
-spamming disruption web over the screen could be really OP if zealots could attack beneath them, however i think this was not the case in bw.
-might be too hardcounter to lurkers, maybe it does not effect lurkers? not sure
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Hello people, i want to know if "Starbow Tester 2.0" needs an update.
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EPT
