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[A] Starbow - Page 40

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
July 20 2012 15:34 GMT
#781
On July 20 2012 11:04 Laertes wrote:
Is this done now?


It will most likely be complete at the end of next week. Maybe saturday. I have a deadline before the end of July that I will not break.

On July 20 2012 11:28 MNdakota wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 09:06 Kabel wrote:
Completely new spells has been added to casters that lacked them.


Could you go into detail on that?


Always fun with secrets. You will see them upon the release
Creator of Starbow
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 16:25:21
July 20 2012 16:03 GMT
#782
--- Discussion of the day ---

How do we break up the deathball?


One of the things I aim to improve is unit clumping. If we look at SC2 units clump up really easy and form perfect formations. On the other side of the spectrum we have BW, where units are very spread out because they move rather stupid and needs constant supervision.

One of the key attempts I have made in Starbow is to change the mixed formation diameter value, which indicates how well units stay in formations and retains their positions when moving. Some people like it, others hate it.

But before we start to discuss, we need to define what a deathball is and why that is even a problem.




What is the problem with deathballs?

How can the issues be solved within this mod?

How do you feel about the current movement system in Starbow? Suggestions on other solutions?



Interesting threads about this matter:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223889




Creator of Starbow
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
July 20 2012 16:24 GMT
#783
--- Nuked ---
MNdakota
Profile Joined March 2012
United States512 Posts
July 20 2012 17:54 GMT
#784
There was a deathball in Brood War also but people don't realize it. Players would move their army in "balls" so to speak.

It all depends on the player.
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1978 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 20:10:02
July 20 2012 20:09 GMT
#785
On July 21 2012 02:54 MNdakota wrote:
There was a deathball in Brood War also but people don't realize it. Players would move their army in "balls" so to speak.

It all depends on the player.


sure especially in pvz lategame p had to stick his army together, but the deathball was nearly 1 screen big
in sc2 the deathball is only 1/4 of the screen big cause all units clump together
Total Annihilation Zero
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
July 20 2012 20:22 GMT
#786
PvZ deathball vs SWARM fights were so awesome. Storms, archons, goons, zealots vs swarm. Mass of meat was required to even reach that ball, trough all that storms, goons firing and zealot wall, but zerg really trully was mass of meat these days. Would be cool to get that feeling of EPIC battle instead of INSTANT battle.
MNdakota
Profile Joined March 2012
United States512 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 22:42:54
July 20 2012 22:27 GMT
#787
On July 21 2012 05:09 TaShadan wrote:
sc2 the deathball is only 1/4 of the screen big cause all units clump together


Engine difference mainly.

On July 21 2012 05:22 Danko__ wrote:
EPIC battle instead of INSTANT battle.


There's a thread around here on TeamLiquid about that issue.

But aside from that. I totally agree with you and how you feel. I feel the same way most of the time. :D
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
July 20 2012 23:32 GMT
#788
On July 21 2012 01:03 Kabel wrote:
--- Discussion of the day ---

How do we break up the deathball?


One of the things I aim to improve is unit clumping. If we look at SC2 units clump up really easy and form perfect formations. On the other side of the spectrum we have BW, where units are very spread out because they move rather stupid and needs constant supervision.

One of the key attempts I have made in Starbow is to change the mixed formation diameter value, which indicates how well units stay in formations and retains their positions when moving. Some people like it, others hate it.

But before we start to discuss, we need to define what a deathball is and why that is even a problem.




What is the problem with deathballs?

How can the issues be solved within this mod?

How do you feel about the current movement system in Starbow? Suggestions on other solutions?



Interesting threads about this matter:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223889






Context: Starcraft and similar real-time-strategy video games
personal informal definition of Deathball:
noun, an group which includes all (or the massive majority of all) army units of a single player and where no unit in the group is situated far from any other unit in the same group, "far" relative to supply cost of army.

personal informal definition of deathball strategy and/or deathball game:
noun, the phenomena where the creation of deathballs is the optimal strategy regardless of situation.

What is the problem with deathballs?
+ Show Spoiler +

there is no problem with deathballs.
however, a deathball game is uninteresting in that the only way to beat a deathball is by having a bigger deathball. thus no clever tactic or genius strategy can turn a losing game into a winning one.


How can the issues be solved within this mod?
+ Show Spoiler +

I am not convinced starbow is a deathball game.

but for the sake of argument, lets say it is.

to make a deathball game a non-deathball game you need to encourage small engagements over large ones.
let us pretend that we have X marines fighting 1 marine with infinity health, the infinity health one will obviously win, buthow much damage will the mortal marines deal before dying?
well, X = 1 means both sides will deal equal damage, so (assuming a marine have Z health) the infinity health marine will take Z damage.
X = 2 means the two will deal double damage until one marine dies, then an additional Z damage will be dealt, 2Z + Z = 3Z
X = 3 means the three will deal triple damage until one marine dies, than an additional 3Z damage will be dealt, 3Z + 3Z = 6Z
X = 4, 4Z+6Z=10Z
5, 5+10=15
6, 21
7, 28
8, 36
9, 45
10, 55
100, 5050

as you can see, simply by having units which can be massproduced the game automaticly becomes centered around having as much stuff as possible, since having 2 of a unit is not twice as good, but three times as good, thus deathball. this is entirely unavoidable.

however, starcraft combat is balanced around more than just units, the key to making a deathball game a non-deathball game is two-fold:
casters and defenders advantage.
these factors allow a smaller force to defeat a larger force, or at the very least even out the odds. it is very much tied to what I said about spells of supreme power:
if all casters had only spells of supreme power, why would anyone build ordinary units? they make little difference in the battle.
that situation is the exact opposite of a deathball game, its a micro game (much like MOBA games which, as you may note, are not deathball games).
however, as with all things extremes are generally the worst possible options.
the current balance between casters and units feels fine, casters do enough to even the odds of a small army against a big army, but not so much as to nullify the army advantage of the enemy. obviously this depends on how you use them.

I started with saying "you need to encourage small engagements over large ones" and I kind of sidetracked from there, but I began with what is most important.
small, strategically correct and tactically executed engagements must be more efficient than storming the first weak point you see with everything you have.
that is the basis of what I think you try to achieve. (do correct me if I'm wrong)

what is interesting is that this have less to do with the game than you think. it has to do with the map.
months ago I said this:

PM from Roblin to kabel:

...

there are 3 main features which I believe would enhance the experience, namely:

smaller and "deeper" chokes than normal: if chokes are tiny and long, such as corridors, then it is very difficult to move big armies through them, thus telling the players "use smaller armies on more places", smaller chokes also allow small amounts of units to hold against big armies for extended amounts of time, thus forcing the attacker to rethink his attackpath, I mean chokes so small that no more than 2 dragoons can pass it at a time, 3 lurkers will easily die to 10 dragoons, but 10 dragoons will suffer heavy casualties if they try to pass through a choke guarded by lurkers.

open areas become even more open: this in combination with smaller chokes makes certain strategies heavily favor certain types of terrain, tanks are best put where they guard chokes, zerglings, marines and zealots want to wait until the enemy leaves the choke before surrounding and destroying, the chokes is a "nono zone" for zerglings while those same chokes is the favourite position of a reaver or lurker.

more bases: if every base lasts longer until it depletes, that means starvation tactics will be less effective and thus less viable, this would be counteracted by "rewarding" the player with more mapcontrol with more possible bases to take.

...

and that is what I based the map "forbidden lagoon" upon
it still holds true.

note:
this sentence: "more bases: if every base lasts longer until it depletes," references the economy system which was in use at the time, it has no connection with the current economy system. rewarding mapcontrol with more bases is still important to note though.

do you not agree that the games we played on forbidden lagoon was incredibly epic? games felt like they lasted forever, the average game lasted 40+ minutes, bases were taken left, right and center, small groups of units was constantly moving somewhere on the map, but it was always the player that kept managing the economy that ended up winning.
the map was the first I made, it looked crappy, Im sure it had balance issues, and was bad in almost every respect.
but it was good in others.
the chokes were small enough to let 10 supply of units fight against 50, there were space for epic battles (remember when I dropped 10 lurkers, 30+ lings and a bunch of hydras into your defending siegeline? you won the battle with 2 tanks and a couple of marines left, and this was before darkswarm was in the game!)
and thanks to those factors, there were not a single deathball in any of those games.

the reason we saw no deathballs is because the map was tailored to give massive defenders advantage. it was never worth it to send your entire army at the enemy because both players had small groups of troops raiding everywhere, and the enemy could force battles to drag out for several minutes if need be. leaving something undefended would be suicide.

in conclusion: its not the mod, its the maps.
if maps give lots of defenders advantage and have lots of bases (7+ per player), that discourages deathballs very effectively.


How do you feel about the current movement system in Starbow? Suggestions on other solutions?
+ Show Spoiler +

its fine, changing it won't matter in the slightest in any way at all.


//Roblin
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
July 21 2012 02:59 GMT
#789
Dilute the deathball (spacing)
Punish the deathball more harshly (buff AoE)
Make it easier to avoid the deathball (bigger maps)
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1978 Posts
July 21 2012 08:53 GMT
#790
On July 21 2012 05:22 Danko__ wrote:
Would be cool to get that feeling of EPIC battle instead of INSTANT battle.


units do too much dps in sc2 thats why most battles end so fast
most sc2 units shoot much faster than bw units
Total Annihilation Zero
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
July 21 2012 11:14 GMT
#791
units do too much dps in sc2 thats why most battles end so fast
most sc2 units shoot much faster than bw units


Thats not true. Basic units: ling atacks much slower, rine atacks with exactly same speed and stim rine much slower, zealot bit faster, hydras, stalkers are different then in BW so you cant compare them. Much faster atacking unit is tank, both unsieged and sieged, but his damage was nerfed hard (it should have over 4 => 33%+ longer atk cd to match BW counterpart). Also muta is atacking faster, but its not so extreme value like with tank (1,72cd instead of 1,52). What makes units melt is smarttargeting, maybe projectile speed (so they dont overkill due to that so much) and spacing (or more like pathing, cause you could stack units in BW too, just they didnt do that "naturally").
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
July 21 2012 11:55 GMT
#792
On July 21 2012 20:14 Danko__ wrote:
Show nested quote +
units do too much dps in sc2 thats why most battles end so fast
most sc2 units shoot much faster than bw units


Thats not true. Basic units: ling atacks much slower, rine atacks with exactly same speed and stim rine much slower, zealot bit faster, hydras, stalkers are different then in BW so you cant compare them. Much faster atacking unit is tank, both unsieged and sieged, but his damage was nerfed hard (it should have over 4 => 33%+ longer atk cd to match BW counterpart). Also muta is atacking faster, but its not so extreme value like with tank (1,72cd instead of 1,52). What makes units melt is smarttargeting, maybe projectile speed (so they dont overkill due to that so much) and spacing (or more like pathing, cause you could stack units in BW too, just they didnt do that "naturally").


Hm, according to this guy (and I assume he has done research) in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100

He states as a conclusion regarding damage per second between BW and SC2:

Now that I have outlined some of my musings on the DPS of different units and AOE damage, I want to write about the correlation between DPS and production. The DPS of almost all units and spells in BW is lower than that of SC2. The production time of most units is only slightly longer (5-10% on average) in BW than in SC2, but the rate at which damage is dealt in SC2 is close to 15% more than that of BW in most cases.

This is where a problem arises: Comebacks are harder since there is less time for a player to recuperate through production waves before the enemy can seal the deal, almost nullifying the defenders advantage of production vs arrival of the enemy force. The defender cannot buy much time with AOE spells to control the field either, since they do not last long and affect small areas.

This also creates a bigger incentive for a Death ball to be created, since the risk of losing a game often lies in one battle. Because of this, a player wants his force to be as strong and deadly and compacted as possible to deal the most DPS in the least amount of time, increasing his chances to win the one deciding battle.
Creator of Starbow
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
July 21 2012 12:09 GMT
#793
And i say: In most cases its bullshit. Go run scbw, and check how long it takes for rine to do 100 atacks (500dmg to CC for example) and later do same with sc2. Dont belive in everything they say >.>, just test it yourself. Marines atacking faster is myth. Mutas are really atacking faster, tanks MUCH faster, but you cant compare most of other units. Core/basic units dps is very similar and in case of lings much (35%) lower .
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1978 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 12:27:32
July 21 2012 12:21 GMT
#794
its not bullshit...

in addition though the production times are not really faster the mechanics boost the production so in average the production time is "faster" which leads faster to deathballs
Total Annihilation Zero
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 12:43:25
July 21 2012 12:40 GMT
#795
its not bullshit... Why exactly its not bullshit? Go test it yourself.

I said nothing about production, but yes, there are cheaper, faster macro/production mechanics which allows to get army faster. But i dont think deathball syndrome is caused by production, but by mechanic and game design supporting deathballs. In BW it was hard to control very big number of units and also they didnt work so well then (overkilling etc), as in small numbers (ofcourse their efficency depended on both sides: it was good to have more marines vs more lings or more and more tanks overal, in most cases).

I think modyfying pathing, bigger, better maps and smart units/races design can be answer.

Game anyone? Got some time.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 15:55:12
July 21 2012 14:00 GMT
#796
On July 21 2012 21:40 Danko__ wrote:
Go test it yourself.


I just did. I used the timer on my cellphone. I let a marine in BW attack a command center until it lost 500 HP. It took 64 seconds.

I did the same thing in SC2 and it took: + Show Spoiler +
64 seconds.


Ok, so based on this, at least marines do the same amount of damage in the same time. But I still have a feeling in SC2 that things dies way faster than in BW. I think combats ends very quick in Starbow too.

If you want this statement to be true:
Would be cool to get that feeling of EPIC battle instead of INSTANT battle.

then something gotta be done.. Increase attack speed of all units by 10% so all core units shoot slower? Or will solutions like bigger maps be enough? Change unit pathing?

In other words, do we want all types of combats (both early game and end game combats) last longer? In what way?



Game anyone? Got some time.



Can´t play or observe for some days now, unfortunatly.
Creator of Starbow
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1978 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 14:23:36
July 21 2012 14:05 GMT
#797
you are right with the marine zergling (zergling attacks faster but its movementspeed is a little bit slower moving off creep and much slower if you compare it to zergling on creep and they dont autosourround in bw so the damage is reduced) and the zealot

1 frame is 0.0566 seconds therefore if you use the liquipedia framecounts for cooldown you are right
but in general the tier1.5 units have much higher dps i know there is no comparable bw unit but thats the point
in bw there are no high dps units in early game and cause the units are not clumped high amounts of units only do mass damage if you flank on open ground (units are stupid and most units in second row are not able to fight in bw)
and the late game high damage units in bw are hard to handle and shoot very slow although they do similar dps cause they do very high damage slow shoots while most sc2 units do very fast middle damage shoots
but this fast shooting reduces micro
also most sc2 untis have a much faster turning rate which means flanking is less effective and a click move and shoot micro is possible with nearly every unit while in bw there are different kinds of micro cause some units turn very slow (for example the marine a move micro is devastating ... most melee units dont even come near while in bw the marines are turning slow and you have to micro small groups away without beeing able to shoot or even single marines)
therefore my statement is half bullshit cause i didnt say that tier 1 units do too much dps i said units in general do too much dps
Total Annihilation Zero
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1978 Posts
July 21 2012 14:10 GMT
#798
On July 21 2012 23:00 Kabel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 21:40 Danko__ wrote:
Go test it yourself.


I just did. I used the timer on my cellphone. I let a marine in BW attack a command center until it lost 500 HP. It took 64 seconds.

I did the same thing in SC2 and it took: + Show Spoiler +
64 seconds.


Ok, so based on this, at least marines do the same amount of damage in the same time. But I still have a feeling in SC2 that things dies way faster than in BW. I think combats ends very quick in Starbow too.

If you want this statement to be true:
Show nested quote +
Would be cool to get that feeling of EPIC battle instead of INSTANT battle.

then something gotta be done.. Lowering attack rate of all units by 10% ? Or will solutions like bigger maps be enough? Change unit pathing?

In other words, do we want all types of combats (both early game and end game combats) last longer? In what way?

Show nested quote +


Game anyone? Got some time.



Can´t play or observe for some days now, unfortunatly.


bigger maps will lead even more to fe or even double fe matches without beeing able to punish it without going for cheese rush
Total Annihilation Zero
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
July 21 2012 15:56 GMT
#799
On July 21 2012 23:00 Kabel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 21:40 Danko__ wrote:
Go test it yourself.


I just did. I used the timer on my cellphone. I let a marine in BW attack a command center until it lost 500 HP. It took 64 seconds.

I did the same thing in SC2 and it took: + Show Spoiler +
64 seconds.


Ok, so based on this, at least marines do the same amount of damage in the same time. But I still have a feeling in SC2 that things dies way faster than in BW. I think combats ends very quick in Starbow too.

If you want this statement to be true:
Show nested quote +
Would be cool to get that feeling of EPIC battle instead of INSTANT battle.

then something gotta be done.. Lowering attack rate of all units by 10% ? Or will solutions like bigger maps be enough? Change unit pathing?

In other words, do we want all types of combats (both early game and end game combats) last longer? In what way?

Show nested quote +


Game anyone? Got some time.



Can´t play or observe for some days now, unfortunatly.


Dont lower units atack speed. Early game micro is fine. Mid/lategame armies are dying too fast. And yes, thats matter of pathing. I dont think units should automatically get into range/surround units that easly. Flanking will be more rewarding if that will really make difference. And bigger, better maps. Long chokes are imho not best solution. BWlike pathing would also increase defenders adventage with normal chokes/ramps as well, cause that would be harder to squeeze units in. Imho.

On July 21 2012 23:05 TaShadan wrote:
you are right with the marine zergling (zergling attacks faster but its movementspeed is a little bit slower moving off creep and much slower if you compare it to zergling on creep and they dont autosourround in bw so the damage is reduced) and the zealot

1 frame is 0.0566 seconds therefore if you use the liquipedia framecounts for cooldown you are right
but in general the tier1.5 units have much higher dps i know there is no comparable bw unit but thats the point
in bw there are no high dps units in early game and cause the units are not clumped high amounts of units only do mass damage if you flank on open ground (units are stupid and most units in second row are not able to fight in bw)
and the late game high damage units in bw are hard to handle and shoot very slow although they do similar dps cause they do very high damage slow shoots while most sc2 units do very fast middle damage shoots
but this fast shooting reduces micro
also most sc2 untis have a much faster turning rate which means flanking is less effective and a click move and shoot micro is possible with nearly every unit while in bw there are different kinds of micro cause some units turn very slow (for example the marine a move micro is devastating ... most melee units dont even come near while in bw the marines are turning slow and you have to micro small groups away without beeing able to shoot or even single marines)
therefore my statement is half bullshit cause i didnt say that tier 1 units do too much dps i said units in general do too much dps


Again incorrect. Zerglings in BW were faster then Zerglings in SC2 off creep. They didnt autosurround, yes. Thats why they could have so insane stats, and they werent op later. Would be cool to have dumber lings which require some control, like flanking etc to be really rewarding. Right now there is no huge difference (compared to broodwar lings frontal atack :D).

Tier 1,5 units? BW hydras? You are not gonna say Roaches have more dps. Roaches and especially banes have burst damage. Its not good if you want to fights last longer
Goons vs Stalkers: Depended on enemy, but goons had comparable dps as well.
Maruder and uh... Firebat? You cant really compare dps of these 2, too different.

I think problem may lie in higher tiers:
Factory:
Helion- mineral only unit with splash vs Vulture- mineral only unit, situational splash is mostly for map control.
DPS: Vulture is superior in fighting 1 target in most situations, but blueflame+lings ends battles QUICKLY. Imho vulture was superior in design.
Tank: Both, unsieged and sieged dps is higher. About 2% higher if we compare armored dmg and dmg vs large unit. Almost 30% higher vs light (same dmg, faster atk speed) for sieged. Unsieged siegetank in sc2 is MUCH stronger then BW, but there are immortals/marauders so well, it had to be like that.
Thor/Goliath: Thor ground DPS is INSANE, its like 5 goliaths! AA: Well... Different role. In BW golis were there to keep tanks safe. Tanks were core of army. Goliaths sucked hard at anything but fighting air. But tanks raped everything on ground (in siegemode). Overal, i liked goliaths much more, cause they were mobile support for mech army. Each unit in mech filled specialized role. In SC2 we can see pure thor pushes which are just silly...

Starport:
Wraith/viking/banshee: wraiths sniped units faster then vikings, but both viking and banshees are SUPERIOR to wraith at dealing dmg vs ground. But well... These are 3 different units.
dropship/medievac: Same dps.
BC/BC: SC2 BC => PEW PEW PEW. SCBW BC => lategame capital ship,scaling well with upgrades.

Overal i think BW units were superior in design whitchout cool lazors, uber ranges, mass aoes etc, and we are going in right direction with design of starbow. Right now we have to polish it, remove banelings, finish few spells, remove banelings, and get some really good maps.
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
July 21 2012 16:02 GMT
#800
Dont worry about mass FE TaShadan. We will tweak that somehow for sure, but we need more testing. I had no occasion to play starbow for like week right now and hope there will be someone online tomorrow.
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