ithe tier 1.5 units are stronger than bw tier 1.5 units, marauder do shitloads of damage to buildigns and any other armored unit especially with stim and roaches are brutal too (they do medium dps but have alot of health compared to other tier1.5 with low cost)
and no goons didnt do comparable dps
they do more max damage but they do only 10 damage to armored units -armor value and they shoot slower then stalker and are produced slower also they have to "aim" after they killed a unit which delays the shooting (which is a engine problem/feature)

TaShadan

Germany1982 Posts

July 21 2012 16:06 GMT

#802

" Goliaths sucked hard at anything but fighting air."
that is not true they were very good vs lings and they were ok vs zealots too

Danko__

Poland429 Posts

July 21 2012 16:31 GMT

#803

Stronger? What are we talking about? Dps/Health/Dmg burst or maybe move speed? Roaches have good burst of damage. I know that, and said that. But hydras had better dps. Marauders have insane dps, but there is nothing you can compare them to. Firebats had insane dps too, especially with stim, but had different role.

If you would like to compare goons dps with stalkers dps then you have something like this:

Stalker: 1,41atk cd 10dmg +4 vs armored => 7,1 / 9,9
Goon: 1,72atk cd 15dmg -5vs light +5 vs armored. => 5,8 / 8,7 / 11.6

Lower vs light/nonarmored and higher vs armored. I would call it comparable. But yes, stalkers are part of that in sc2 everything dies faster, but not as much as most other things.

Goliaths sucked hard vs anything but air. They were not very good vs lings... They just sucked less vs lings or zealots then vs most of other units, but still they were insanely cost inefficent at fighting them. If i had to choose vulture or goli vs lings/zealots i woudl choose vult any day.

TaShadan

Germany1982 Posts

July 21 2012 17:26 GMT

#804

"Goliaths sucked hard vs anything but air. They were not very good vs lings... They just sucked less vs lings or zealots then vs most of other units, but still they were insanely cost inefficent at fighting them. If i had to choose vulture or goli vs lings/zealots i woudl choose vult any day."

incorrect if you reach a certain amount of gols they melt lings and they win vs zealots and marines they only suck vs them in low units counts (sure i would choose vults too but you are just wrong saying they sucked vs everything)
but whatever you are the scbw pro

MNdakota

United States512 Posts

July 21 2012 18:14 GMT

#805

Let's just say we need more bigger maps like Tal'darim Altar for example and I think the game plays better that way.

We've been playing a lot of games on Ohana and it's a terrible map for Starbow really. It's just too small! TT

Danko__

Poland429 Posts

July 21 2012 18:15 GMT

#806

Mass goli is poop and i have no idea why would you try to mass it. Before you will reach that critical mass z is gonna have dark swarm long ago, toss will just build goons instead of zealots, and i dubt that mass goli can really reach critical mass to be efficent vs mm. And you can reach critical mass with (almost) every ranged unit to be efficent vs melee/short range units >.>.

I love discusing with you >.>. First you are talking about dps, suddenly takling about roaches hps, now you are using arguments like "you are the scbw pro". Srsly dude... I have nothing against you, so dont take everything personal.

Danko__

Poland429 Posts

July 21 2012 18:30 GMT

#807

Dakota... You should be happy to play on these maps. Here we have only 2 community made maps, and one of them is terribly small :d.

MNdakota

United States512 Posts

July 21 2012 18:31 GMT

#808

On July 22 2012 03:30 Danko__ wrote:
Dakota... You should be happy to play on these maps. Here we have only 2 community made maps, and one of them is terribly small :d.

What maps do you EU people have? xD

Danko__

Poland429 Posts

July 21 2012 18:37 GMT

#809

Devolution and Quarantine Zone. Btw, did Kabbel upload new version already? Dakota, dont you wanna stream some games? Im bored in work right now.

MNdakota

United States512 Posts

July 21 2012 18:41 GMT

#810

On July 22 2012 03:37 Danko__ wrote:
Devolution and Quarantine Zone. Btw, did Kabbel upload new version already? Dakota, dont you wanna stream some games? Im bored in work right now.

No he didn't upload yet. I will stream if anyone is on NA after this End of Nations game.

TaShadan

Germany1982 Posts

July 21 2012 18:47 GMT

#811

we were just talking about the unit itself and the goliath is not crap vs everything i just played some games and they good vs lings with proper micro lings melt

TaShadan

Germany1982 Posts

July 21 2012 18:51 GMT

#812

"versus Zerg
Goliaths are generally used in conjunction with Siege Tanks, and sometimes Vultures or Valkyries in mech or mech-bio TvZ variants. The Goliath's purpose is to help stifle the Mutalisks. While Goliaths are relatively immobile compared to the Marine and Medic combination, its superior range and damage compensates. Goliaths high rate of fire and high health make them fare very well against Zerglings. Also, they have longer range than Mutalisks.
Goliath, Vulture, Siege Tank "balls" that are fully upgraded are notoriously hard to stop.
With the advent of the Fantasy Build, Goliaths are becoming more and more common on the TvZ battlefield.
[edit]versus Terran
Goliaths are used to help stop early Wraith attacks and are very good against Vultures with Spider Mines. Commonly, drops have a Goliath or two in them in order to shoot down Wraiths or even approaching Dropships.
Some Terrans may also choose to harass the opposing player's economy with Goliaths. Because four Goliaths fit inside a Dropship, Goliaths are fairly efficient at killing SCVs.
In the late game, Goliaths are part of a rock-paper-scissors strategy where Goliaths counter Battlecruisers, which counter Siege Tanks which counter Goliaths."

but wait players like flash and fantasy are just noobs they dont know how to play

and i dont have something against you either but i cant stand you are talking about scbw like you are a pro gamer and know everything and infact you are a d+ noob that played the game for some months
i played the game for several years on medium level and i dont know the game perfectly aswell but you are just talking BS sometimes

Danko__

Poland429 Posts

July 21 2012 19:01 GMT

#813

You stated that most units dps is higher and they atack faster, and thats with what i disagree, as most comparable units have same or simillar dps, with few exceptions. And i didnt say they are bad vs everything. They suck vs ground. They are probably best ground AA unit in scbw. But they are inefficent vs 90% of ground units. You can kill few lings with them. You can kill some rines. You can kill few zealots. You even can kill few hydras in semi-efficent way. But once they reach that "critical mass" vs ground its already too late. They can be effective if you are already ahead, and can amass them, thats truth. But they are raped so hard by so many units most often its not worth trying.

Im not gonna list all myths you belive or belived and stated here or on bnet as that would take way too much time.

TaShadan

Germany1982 Posts

July 21 2012 19:05 GMT

#814

"But they are inefficent vs 90% of ground units."
not true but i dont care anymore you obv. know it better

Danko__

Poland429 Posts

July 21 2012 19:09 GMT

#815

They are fine support, thats all.

TaShadan

Germany1982 Posts

July 21 2012 19:27 GMT

#816

well if you call beeing the main part of the army support then yes

and sure you cant go for mass gols only vs z cause then he will just mass hyds and mutas and kill you

TaShadan

Germany1982 Posts

July 21 2012 19:31 GMT

#817

and yes i know that the lings are slow and the computer is stupid but that shows that goliaths actually do lots of damage to low hp units

Danko__

Poland429 Posts

July 21 2012 20:29 GMT

#818

2 great examples.

1. Really cool game. Really wp by Flash. Insane, constant harras, securing map with mines, not giving second for zerg to breath. Great vulture play allowed him to secure positions and slowly get map bit by bit. Shows how vultures, tanks, mines, turrets and SVs are strong. And golis were there to defend vs mutas. Literally once they were used to fight anything else as main force, and they were still in superior position and numbers to hydras (and with tank support).

I have seen games which you could use as much better examples where good golis timing ended games even vs hydra and sunkens. But there were other reasons why they had chance to work (vulture harras/drops mostly).

2. LOL, thats BAD example. They do deal significant dps to low hp units, but their hps are too low and cost to high when you want them to be force vs lings/hydras.

MNdakota

United States512 Posts

July 22 2012 22:23 GMT

#819

How is everything coming along Kabel?

Warpath

Canada1242 Posts

July 23 2012 00:28 GMT

#820

Find the Flash vs Jaedong game where flash did a +1 Marine +1 Goliath (or something remote) timing attack. It demonstrates exactly how strong and weak goliaths are