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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
That quote was meant for chronoboost > eco wise. The economy boosters. Not economy in general. To your question i have no idea about the economy in general I timed the larva in broodwar btw, it was 1/14~, in sc2bw it was 1/17 as you said. And according to liquipedia the BT of workers are 20seconds there. I dont know if gamespeed changes the value in sc2. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 03 2013 09:05 Foxxan wrote: kabel That quote was meant for chronoboost > eco wise. The economy boosters. Not economy in general. To your question i have no idea about the economy in general I timed the larva in broodwar btw, it was 1/14~, in sc2bw it was 1/17 as you said. And according to liquipedia the BT of workers are 20seconds there. I dont know if gamespeed changes the value in sc2. Faster gamespeed in SC2 is roughly 8-9% faster. I don't mind eco boosters so much, but tech boosters that can make timings soooooo weird. I think it would be fine if you had a slight boost to something via macro mechanic, be it you choose eco, tech, or what have you. Only problem is that Terran has no such ability. He can only scan or boost his eco. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Maybe an ability, you choose to target your barack. Increases your buildtime of two units from that barack. Something like that across the board. To speed the game up? and dec, how is the economy right now? I have no freaking idea | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 03 2013 09:13 Foxxan wrote: What hinders to give terran such an ability in the future? Maybe an ability, you choose to target your barack. Increases your buildtime of two units from that barack. Something like that across the board. To speed the game up? and dec, how is the economy right now? I have no freaking idea. Better than it has ever been before. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
The question is, I think, which structure do we want to be the prerequisite for the Nexus upgrade? (Also what do we call it, it really should have some sort of name). Personally I think the Forge would fit better than the Gateway, since it would allow FFE builds to be more macro oriented than Gate first, which is the trade-off you make by delaying your tech with such a build. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 03 2013 10:17 SmileZerg wrote: I rethought the Chrono situation. Given that it seems we don't want the Nexus to generate energy until AFTER the abilities have been unlocked, it does in fact make sense to have them be an upgrade. Otherwise there is a very weird scenario in which a structure with an energy bar does not generate energy until after a certain event takes place, a situation which has no precedent and is not very elegant. The question is, I think, which structure do we want to be the prerequisite for the Nexus upgrade? (Also what do we call it, it really should have some sort of name). Personally I think the Forge would fit better than the Gateway, since it would allow FFE builds to be more macro oriented than Gate first, which is the trade-off you make by delaying your tech with such a build. Gateway, just like Rax and Spawning Pool. You get enough macro boost from going FE anyways. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
i found a really good link for you Apologise if u already knew about it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84768 Build time broodwar, converted to fastest speed Also i did a little timer testing: i may sound stupid now nine mineral fields, nine drones, one on each. 600~ mineral income/one minute bw 600~ sc2 same if i now think correct, since sc2 is faster speed it should be more income right? i did some testing of units in sc2, and they get slower build time even with faster speed | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 03 2013 11:55 Foxxan wrote: #dec i found a really good link for you Apologise if u already knew about it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84768 Build time broodwar, converted to fastest speed Also i did a little timer testing: i may sound stupid now nine mineral fields, nine drones, one on each. 600~ mineral income/one minute bw 600~ sc2 same if i now think correct, since sc2 is faster speed it should be more income right? i did some testing of units in sc2, and they get slower build time even with faster speed Fixed Siege Tank and Spider Mines vs zealots (and their animations). It was a tricky one. Tested BW larva side by side SBOW's. Worker time looks to be the same. Larva time as well. SBOW hatch is sliiiiightly faster than BW Hatch, no big. Our income off 9 patches is similar, but slightly faster in a 6 drone 9 min test. SC2 engine workers are a little bit more nimble. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On September 03 2013 08:45 Foxxan wrote: #xiphias why do u want chrono boost for free so badly? Did you read my post? Listen to my ramble then: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow/b/455480761 Two reasons: 1. IF chronoboost is not free AND you need to upgrade each nexus to get it, then it MUST BE much stronger than it is now in order to keep up with scv-calldown, macro wise. A very strong chrono boost could work just fine to churn out workers and pay for itself eco-wuse, but it could also be used to get 2-2 before terran can get 1-1 which is just silly. Again, I do not think you understand that SCV-call down is better than you think (it seems so to me at least, I can do some more/better testing if you want me to). 2. What smilezerg said. There is no point of having an upgrade that you either have to get or does not pay for itself. Then you either 1. Always get it no matter what, or 2. never get it. The reason orbital is an upgrade is because you can also chose to make a planetary. I really feel I am just repeating myself over and over here. Do anyone read what I actually say, or am I just formualting myself poorly. Also, I have some hard numbers to back up my claim. Sure, my testing may be "bad" since it is not a real scenario, but do you have any numbers yourself to show me I'm wrong? I would love to see something more than just "OC is not worth it" and "chrono is free". Is really OC not worth it, have you calculated that? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
1. My testing was "unrealistic" because I got orbital command too early. Most terrans get it later / do not get it at all because they are under the assumption that "it does not pay for itself". How am I suppose to test a macro mechanic if i take that stand / assumption? The is completely fruitless for me. In order to test a macro mechanic, I have to assume that it works, hence I try to get it as early as possible. If it is very difficult, in the current meta to get an orbital as early as possible, then maybe that's what needs to be balanced. This may be solved by HideR's suggestion of reducing its cost to 75 minerals. 2. Oh, and just to clarify. If we went for the "gateway activate chrono and rift" solution, then the there should not even be an energy bar at the nexus until the gateway was complete AND it starts with 0 energy. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 03 2013 15:14 Xiphias wrote: Some more thoughts: 1. My testing was "unrealistic" because I got orbital command too early. Most terrans get it later / do not get it at all because they are under the assumption that "it does not pay for itself". How am I suppose to test a macro mechanic if i take that stand / assumption? The is completely fruitless for me. In order to test a macro mechanic, I have to assume that it works, hence I try to get it as early as possible. If it is very difficult, in the current meta to get an orbital as early as possible, then maybe that's what needs to be balanced. This may be solved by HideR's suggestion of reducing its cost to 75 minerals. 2. Oh, and just to clarify. If we went for the "gateway activate chrono and rift" solution, then the there should not even be an energy bar at the nexus until the gateway was complete AND it starts with 0 energy. Its fine being "op" because of number 1. Its an actual choice to get it or not. You don't rush straight to +1 with no units and ability to defend yourself either simply because it isn't worth it and doesn't pay off until WAY later. By the time OC is much easier to invest in, you already decent saturation so adding another worker is less efficient. Plus, increasing saturation is less of a problem them. Maybe if you get super hurt in your worker count mid game it would be worth it (after reaver harass or something). That is why people think Chrono is better right now. It is a 100% non choice wether you have the ability or not, just choosing what to use it on. And at the start it is always workers. OC is a choice. Queens are a choice. Queen=safer, plus creep, but more apm recquired. Hatch instead=more mineral fields to saturate Macro hatch can be used as sim city, plus less attention required. Against Toss I really like having a hatch down instead of rushing for queens. Sim city vs zealots is great. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Not the choice: "Should I get it or not?", but rather the choice: "Should I boost eco, army or tech?". This is a no-brainer with current chrono, and I see your points there. The first 2-3 chrono are always used on workers atm. Later, chrono becomes a choice. We do not need individual nexus upgrades for chrono to become a choice. But my bigegst concern with having individual upgrades on Nexus is this: It will have to boost chrono in such ways to keep up with the other eco abilities that protoss upgrades / tech can come incredibly fast. And do not even suggest to increase all upgrades times for toss as a result. That will remove the choice again, since then you HAVE to chrono out upgrades. I see your points, about early workers are more important than early mid-game workers. Hence my two suggestions: Make chrono be activated by gateway, and make OC 75 minerals. Also, make chrono closer to sc2 chrono IF it becomes activated by gateways. Sorry about all the posts, but I really feel it is important that these macro mechanics do not become broken. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
IF chronoboost is not free AND you need to upgrade each nexus to get it, then it MUST BE much stronger than it is now in order to keep up with scv-calldown, macro wise Agree here. My logic is that OC is currently slightly UP, which means that you won't/shouldn't really get it pre 8-10 minute mark in most games. The only real reason you want to get it before is to scan the opponent as terran at the moment due to weak vultures and reapers doesn't really have any scouting options early game. If/when that changes though (reaper and slow-vultures are buffed), then I believe there is no real reason to get OC in the early game. And if OC is a bit overpriced, then Nexus at same values is definitely overpriced as well. Thus I suggest that we reduce OC cost to 75 minerals and keep the research time at 35 seconds. Nexus upgrade is reduced to 75 minerals as well and research time reduced to 20 seconds. Hopefully this will provide a better balance and allow more real decisions and build order variety for both races. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
HP has been reduced to BW values, however it is still more expensive at 125/50. In BW it was 100/50. Please fix this for next patch. Btw, besides Ultras and air units. What else needs to be done before we have BW balance? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
"Thus I suggest that we reduce OC cost to 75 minerals and keep the research time at 35 seconds." - sure On September 03 2013 18:01 Hider wrote: Agree here. (....) Nexus upgrade is reduced to 75 minerals as well and research time reduced to 20 seconds. OK, that does not make any sense. You agree that we cannot have individual upgrades because then chronoboost must be improved so much as to make tech and upgrades too fast, and then you say that they should be individually upgraded? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
On September 03 2013 18:27 Xiphias wrote: If we revert goliath back to BW stats (cost included...) then we should also revert the model. I believe it was bw stats at some point but we wanted to "thorefy" it slightly, so we made it more expensive, a bit larger and beefier. "Thus I suggest that we reduce OC cost to 75 minerals and keep the research time at 35 seconds." - sure OK, that does not make any sense. You agree that we cannot have individual upgrades because then chronoboost must be improved so much as to make tech and upgrades too fast, and then you say that they should be individually upgraded? Well the strenght of it is relative to the price you pay for it. So I suggest we reduce the price (which is determined by research time and the minerals you pay for it). It is weaker than Scv calldown, and thus should be cheaper to get. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
This will not be a fake test, but pure math, since the suggestion is that both should cost something. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
It takes 44.44.... seconds to regenerate 25 energy. Toss and terran workers build time is 19 seconds atm (correct me if I'm wrong here). This amounts to 2.34 workers / 44.4 seconds if there is constant worker production an no eco boost of any kind. With call-down terran has 3.34 workers / 44.4 seconds because call-down worker is virtually instantly. (It takes a few seconds but I will disregard that for now). Assume that building an OC takes about the same tech and resources as "upgrading a nexus". How long must the chronoboost last in order to make 3.34 workers / 44.4 seconds? This is actually very easy. If we let chronoboost increase BT by 100% instead of 50% then we need 19 secunds because then you will be able to build two workers in the time of one. And toss also need to wait for energy to regenerate. Now some propaganda. This is HUGE! That's twice as much juice for 4 seconds longer. Upgrading weapon lvl 1 takes 160 game minutes. With constant chrono from one nexus that time is reduced to about 120.seconds. With constant chrono from two nexuses it is reduced to you can almost chrono 100% of the time and reduce the upgrade time to close to 80 sec. Now if upgrading a nexus require less tech and minerals than an OC then we can back down these values a little (and the math become more complicated) but what I feared is true. In order to make chronoboost as good of an eco-mechanic as call-down SCV we need to drastically improve it and it will make some crazy tech timings I think we want to avoid. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
As you know, we aim to get BW balance on the core units. Today have I added some more BW balance to the core units. Some of them were not correct. (For example Goliath) I look at BW stats at Liquidpedia. The hardest part is to get attack and movement speed absolutely correct, since BW uses another time scale. But everything must not be super correct into every exact detail, since Starbow is not BW. Some tweaks will surely need to be made anyway, to make sure the new content fits well. The intention is just to use BW as a point of reference. A stable foundation for the game. Economy is now much better than it has ever been. The only remaining issue is the macro mechanics. I really want to get them balanced, since they are so crucial for the game. Details: All workers build at 19 seconds. Larvas spawn every 17 seconds Orbital >>>+ Show Spoiler + - 100 minerals - 35 seconds build time - Starts with 50 energy - 200 maximum energy - Calldown SCV costs 25 energy, 50 minerals and has a cooldown of 30 seconds. (To avoid it being spammed) - Scan 50 energy - Calldown Supply 75 energy - Requires Barrack Queen >>>+ Show Spoiler + - 150 Minerals - 40 seconds BT - Starts with 50 energy - 100 max energy - Requires Spawning Pool. - Only 1 Queen can be built per Hatchery/Lair/Hive - Inject costs 25 energy, increases larva spawn rate by 60% for 40 seconds. - Creep tumor 25 energy - Nurturing swarm 25 energy, heal target unit or structure for 75 life. IF used on a moprhing structure, it is constructed 100% faster for 15 seconds. - 150 life, 1 Armor, counts as Armored - 4x2 dmg vs any target. 6x2 vs armored targets. Attack speed 1.25 seconds. - Costs 2 supply Nexus >>>+ Show Spoiler + Each Nexus "unlocks" Chrono boost and Rift by researching an upgrade at that Nexus. - Costs 75 minerals - 20 seconds research time - The Nexus starts with 25 energy as soon as the upgrade is finished. - Requires Gateway - 100 max energy - Chrono boost costs 25 energy, increases time by 50% for 15 seconds on that structure. - Rift costs 50 energy, and teleports up to 5 ground units to the Nexus. - Atm, there are no graphic on the Nexus once the upgrade is researched. If this is kept, XiA will add it. - If we keep this, maybe starting energy can be 50, just as the other races. And ofc other values will surely need to be better. Some comments by me: >>>+ Show Spoiler + - I don´t want Orbital or Queen to be free, or only cost 25 minerals each. (As has been suggested.) I like that there is a choice when to get it, which leads to more build order diversity. - I think the abilities on Orbital, Queen and Nexus feel decent enough to be kept in the game. Leads to some variation on how to use the energy. So I will not add new spells or anything at this point. - The most crucial apsect of each macro mechanic is how fast they can help to produce workers. Each one has additional side effects, which are hard to compare to each other. (Scan, Rift, Nurturing Swarm, Queens can help with base defence, and so on) - I would prefer to NOT make Chrono boost super strong or last any longer. I like that they can be used on Cannons, and I fear they will be hard to balance, if they last 20+ seconds on a Cannon, or increases attack speed by 100% or something like that. And I think it can be tricky to get Chrono boost to apply a different effect to just Cannons.. Hmm.. I receive different suggestions from you in the ingame chat on EU. This and that value shall be nerfed, changed, adjusted. To get a better overview, I encourage you all to make a summary here instead. Anyone has a complete detailed balance suggestion for those macro mechanics? (Even if it is a large or small suggestion. Just so we can finally nail it) | ||
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