EPT[A] Starbow - Page 387
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
What are your top priority concerns? Here are some areas I think are important to look at, since they feel quite unfinished: (Here we can not use BW balance) >>>+ Show Spoiler + - Fix Reaper and its relationship vs other units - Fix Stalker & Immortal & Reaver and their relationship vs other units - Fix Psi Storm & Archon damage. (Currently they deal insane dmg vs everything) I think you made a good post a while ago Hider, were you mentioned that each Protoss unit should have a role in the tech tree. Atm it kinda feels like Storm and Reaver are great vs everything on the ground. They were in BW too. But since Protoss tech tree looks different in Starbow, I think we can do some adjustements here, to encourage more unit compositions and play styles. Make more units useful. - Immortal strong vs armored targets (Tank, Goliath, Marauder, Stalker, Immortal, Reaver, Lurker, Ultra, Structures, Static) - Reaver strong vs medium and light targets, but not as insane vs armored - Archon strong vs light and medium, but weaker vs armored - Psi Storm stronger vs armored, good vs medium and light, In this way, Immortals truly play a role in each match-up, and become much more important vs Ultralisks and Lurkers. (Who are already countered by Archons and Reaver, which destroys everything) Psi storm stronger vs armored encourages it vs mech, and also in PvP, as an alternative to Reavers. And all of this can be achieved via stat changes. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
What i would like to see in the future, for every race to be able to increase their macro (combat unit) with their economy boosters. I dont know about chronoboost but it feels a little bad to use on gateway for example? Even if it increases your macro of combat units. So for terran, to add an ability for him. My suggestions are right now, just something to look at atleast) 1) Replace supply depot calldown with a macro mechanic for terran, put it on a barack to increase buildtime of the next two units. 2) Queen: The inject larva. Hm, really hard now since i dont know how balanced inject is, but a redesign to it that: Gives you two larva very fast for 20seconds, and if u dont use it the larvas die. 3) for cb, something like this to. Maybe not have CB to be able to be used on gateways or other buildings, only nexus. Give him a new one with the same method i gave terran These are just some suggestions, not set in stone by me so dont get upset. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Such abilities might surely be fun, but I will not add anything like that now. It is too much work in the editor, and requires a lot of balance work to get it right. Do you have any suggestions on how to balance the current macro mechanics? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Atleast when having one worker on each mineral According to my logic. i did a test on buildtime zealots. Real time seconds. Zealot bw: 25sec Zealot starbow: 27sec With my logic now, zealot in broodwar should be 23~ seconds. #kabel Do you have any suggestions on how to balance the current macro mechanics? Well. CB and calldownscv shouldnt be hard to get right, so look at inject larva now? I did testing in starbow the larva is around 13seconds. In bw it is 12.5~ which means it should be faster than 12.5 in starbow. Is my logic way off or? why is this not implmented yet? So with buffed larva to hatch ,nerf inject? It lats 40seconds, make it last like 20seconds? But increase the burst they give slightly? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Well. CB and calldownscv shouldnt be hard to get right, so look at inject larva now? That is why I ask for complete suggestions. Its easier to look at the bigger picture here in the thread, rather than as chat in the game by several persons at the same time. I did testing in starbow the larva is around 13seconds. In bw it is 12.5~ which means it should be faster than 12.5 in starbow. Is my logic way off or? why is this not implmented yet? So with buffed larva to hatch ,nerf inject? It lats 40seconds, make it last like 20seconds? But increase the burst they give slightly? I don´t understand what you mean. What do you get those values from? Are you talking about Inject? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
So with my logic, starbow should be faster than 12.5. Second, the thing that lasts 40seconds, to reduce to 20seconds. Thats the inject. My thoughts are, CB lasts 15sec. Terran have no macro ability yet. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
What are your top priority concerns? The TvZ matchup mostly. - Dark Swarm nerfed - Slowvulture + reaper movement speed increased back to their previous values ---> Terran can put pressure on zerg early game --> To compensate tanks deal 5 less damage vs normal --> Zerg slightly stronger in midgame in return for slightly more exposed early game vs mech + Dark Swarm less of a neccesity late game with hydras. - Ultra buff - Guardian/Devourer/Viking change. Fix Stalker & Immortal & Reaver and their relationship vs other units To get BW strenght of vulture vs protoss, I believe that this equation should be maintained X * Immortal damage vs normal + Stalker damage vs normal * (1-X) = Dragoon damage vs normal So I bleieve immortal should deal less damage than 10 vs vultures, which I believe is especially neccesary since I recommend to buff stalker damage (this is neccesary due to its relationship vs all other units where it is too weak atm). Approach 1 - Stalker damage increased from 14 vs normal to 16. - Immortal damage reduced from 10 vs normal to 8. Since you have more immortals in your battle composition than stalkers (usually), this will somwhat solve the equation I believe. Approach 2 - Vulture HP increased by 10 --> Helps make it better as an harass unit early game vs both Z and P - Stalker damage damage increased from 14 to 16 vs normal - No change to immortal. I will prefer the latter mathod if slowvultures still can't do well enough vs speedlings with its old movementspeed (4.25*0.9). The new Vulture kiting is perhaps a bit of a nerf to vulturues vs speedlings in the early game, and since I would like this to favor terran a bit, the +10 HP solution could perhaps be ideal here. Vs protoss it will do the same thing roughly. Vs. zerg, the stalker + immortal equation won't go up with this approach vs hydras. This is probably not the biggest issue though. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
First the value is for spawn larva base hatch(no queen). 12.5 in bw, 13~ in starbow. Real time seconds, i tested it myself So with my logic, starbow should be faster than 12.5. Why should it be faster in Starbow? It is good if the larva spawn rate is equal in BW as in Starbow. That is what we intend. The game speed of Starbow has been reduced to match that of BW. So the values should be equal? Second, the thing that lasts 40seconds, to reduce to 20seconds. Thats the inject. My thoughts are, CB lasts 15sec. Terran have no macro ability yet. I can´t do a change like this without math to back it up. Why should Inject only last 20 seconds? Do you mean its broken now? - Dark Swarm nerfed Maybe Dark Swarm even requires a redesign in some way. It was exciting in BW. Here it does not feel as exciting or fun. But something must be done. And when we find a good enough solution, I will try it. - Slowvulture + reaper movement speed increased back to their previous values ---> Terran can put pressure on zerg early game --> To compensate tanks deal 5 less damage vs normal --> Zerg slightly stronger in midgame in return for slightly more exposed early game vs mech + Dark Swarm less of a neccesity late game with hydras. This might be possible. The problems IMO are: - How Dark Swarm ends up working - How can Zerg deal with that without creep speed bonus? Reaper currently have speed 2.75. Earlier they had 3.75. If they get speed 3.25, they are slightly faster than slowlings, but still fast enough to move away from Stalkers. (Who have speed 2.68) So maybe that value can work? Otherwise we can make Zerglings benefit from creep bonus. But that is just.. kinda strange. Why just Zerglings gain bonus? - Guardian/Devourer/Viking change. Depends on how it exactly looks. I do agree that it would be cool if some of those units forced anotther reaction from Terran, and not just Goliaths vs all Z air units. @Stalker/Immortal Sounds resonable too. Unintended consequenses of any of the two approaches? (I really want to be careful with this) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
if it is the same speed i wish u told me this earlier. However, dec says it is 10%~ faster. Iam so confused now.... However, there are many things that have to much BT compared to bw. This breaks stuff alot. When will these things get implemented? They are crucial | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
Otherwise we can make Zerglings benefit from creep bonus. But that is just.. kinda strange. Why just Zerglings gain bonus? I don't think this is really a big issue. Its not like it will be insanely confusing or weird for new players, and more experienced players understands why this is neccesary. One "irrelevant" incosistency is IMO a much less evil than making a unit entirely useless. and not just Goliaths vs everything. .. and SV's.  Unintended consequenses of any of the two approaches? Stalker damage has to happen if we want stalker to stay in the game IMO. If it has unintended consequences, then of course we need to reevalute. Approach 2 could have unintended consequences ofc, and I am not sure it is neccesary at all. Approach 1 is definitely the desired one, and I hope faster slow-vultures will be enough to make terran mech early aggression vs zerg viable. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I think its best if December helps us to sort it out ^^ .. However, there are many things that have to much BT compared to bw. This breaks stuff alot. When will these things get implemented? They are crucial Anything special you have in mind? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
zerglings benefit from creep sounds problem to me. Reaper opening will be godlike since zerg dont have so much creep early. Especially on his natural. Also. I suggest to wait with reaper and core changes to the game like ultralisk buff till we settle first. The thing with sv counter alot of things, atleast sv are good against zerg as a whole. IS because: 1) If u make wraits against guardians, that means you have less sciesevessels. It also means those wraiths are useless against everything else to zerg. 2) Wraiths against guardians, iam not even sure it works since zerg have devourer range6 against wraith range 6. also they have scourges. Imagine if u have wraiths, and you won against his guardians, now darkswarm arrives with no or very little scienvesssels. You are dead. SV is a crucial unit in tvz, its for 1) detection, scan dont cut it. Imagine lurker holds. If zerg do not do any lurker holds. Even then its hard to get so much energy to cover detection everytime you see a lurker. 2) Its used against, ultras, guardians, mutas, defileres. Its crucial againstall these things. Very hard to change things like this right now #kabel december on the page before this told it is 10% faster. So that aside, kabel when will we change the BT of things? FOr example. The zealot, the gateway have faster BT for example. Its crucical. That is just the top of the iceberg And the templar achieves, hightemplars all have faster BT. Achieves is more than 50%.....WOW also for terran side, i believe marines, vultures ( i havent checkedd terran yet) ITs crucical for terr to. LOTS OF THINGS. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I am unsure how to get the exact BW build time into SC2. Even if its not exact, we can at least make sure they are relative to each other. But all BW build times do not fit in Starbow. Templar archies for example should IMO have much longer build time in Starbow, because of: 1) Overlords do not detect cloaked units, so its harder for Z to get detection early. 2) Spider mines do not detect cloaked units, which makes it harder for T to get detecion early. 3) Dark & High Templars can be warped in I will have this evenings update up in ca 1 hour. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
zerglings benefit from creep sounds problem to me. Reaper opening will be godlike since zerg dont have so much creep early. Especially on his natural. Similar to Sc2. SV is a crucial unit in tvz, its for 1) detection, scan dont cut it. Imagine lurker holds. If zerg do not do any lurker holds. Even then its hard to get so much energy to cover detection everytime you see a lurker. 2) Its used against, ultras, guardians, mutas, defileres. Its crucial againstall these things. Very hard to change things like this right now I only suggested to make it possible for a tier 3 unit to make irradiate unfunctional for a brief period in order to buff Guardians (and ultras a bit). IMO its a necceasry change if/when DS gets nerfed. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Then it sounds super trouble for me well if u gonna go with that logic iam not sure what i do i will try and stop to put so much time into this | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
? Are you referring to the Templar archives example? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 04 2013 02:24 Foxxan wrote: #kabel if it is the same speed i wish u told me this earlier. However, dec says it is 10%~ faster. Iam so confused now.... However, there are many things that have to much BT compared to bw. This breaks stuff alot. When will these things get implemented? They are crucial Larva time and drone production is same between SBOW and BW right now. It's tweaked right now so the 8-9% faster SC2 version is more in line with BW. Numbers are good right now. Promise you. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
1) Overlords do not detect cloaked units, so its harder for Z to get detection early. 2) Spider mines do not detect cloaked units, which makes it harder for T to get detecion early. 3) Dark & High Templars can be warped in Well warp tech requires templar tech, so I don't think thats a big factor here. But yeh, protoss has/will be compensated in a lot of ways which make super fast storm tech less relevant. For instance; - Corairs have graviton. - Stalkers will hopefully be stronger which means that you can survive with AOE longer and makes air tech no longer a neccesity. - Sentinels will once they get balanced also pose a new threat. So as long as the plusses and minusses on each side goes somewhat up (relative to BW), then Sbow will be relatively balanced. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
It contains only almost more BW values. Tomorrow will I start to look at how we can branch out Starbow from BW. (As the stuff weve talked about above) ORbital commband costs 75 instead of 100. Nexus upgrade starts with 50 energy instead of 25. Thats it. See how it turns out. | ||
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