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[A] Starbow - Page 388

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
September 03 2013 19:21 GMT
#7741
Streamin'

http://www.twitch.tv/SC2_Starbow
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Fishgle
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-03 19:27:20
September 03 2013 19:24 GMT
#7742
I'm not sure about the Nexus upgrade. It doesn't feel very unique, unlike Terran's OC/Planetary or Zerg's Queens, and it doesn't offer as many interesting choices. Zergs use all of the Queen's abilities, and Terran uses both scan and call down consistently. Protoss will be using chrono boost 95% of the time. Maybe now that Rift/Chrono requires an upgrade, we can add a 3rd spell to the nexus, something to compete for energy with Chronoboost?

edit - it's not that i dislike the nexus upgrade. i think it works very well, and is probably more balanced, but it doesn't feel "protoss" as much as queens feel zergy and OCs/PFs feel Terran-y. if that makes sense.


anyway, I've been thinking a lot about how to make protoss' macro mechanic unique (and useful outside of macro, like T's and Z's are), and here's a very different idea:
+ Show Spoiler +

New Building - Obelisk (looks like this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Obelisk )
Cost - 100/50
Build time - 30 seconds
Requires - Gateway
Does not require a Powerfield to build.
Size - 2x2
Stats - 100hp 100Shield 100 max energy
Abilities : Chrono Boost, Rift, Recharge Shields

Chronoboost- 20% boost for 45 seconds, same energy cost ( a buff over the current chrono boost, 9production*seconds vs 7.5production*seconds, also has its drawbacks due to long duration)

Rift - Same as it is now - except that because its no longer on the nexus, it has the added option of being used aggressively, sort of like warp-in reinforcements.

Recharge Shields - target unit or structure, 5range --- 5energy -> 25 shields -- autocastable, 1 second cooldown - self explanatory. can be defensive or used aggressively.
aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-03 22:44:19
September 03 2013 22:06 GMT
#7743
I remember the obelisk. I like to consider it for sbow

you can see the probes in the early alpha of the sc2 original mining just a bit faster when this obelisk/dark pylon was activated:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3296672704_85366c5bf4_m.jpg
aka Kalevi
Fishgle
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2174 Posts
September 03 2013 22:42 GMT
#7744
Notes from the stream:

"scv calldown cooldown only hurts newer players, and actually does nothing to limit good players, maybe we should remove it"

reduce goliath size to match bw stats & size maybe? might not be necessary (smaller size = buff)

the Nexus upgrade "khaydarian core?" - shows up as a nexus on the production tab

siege tank attack animations are kinda bugged - they try to auto-spread while sieged?

maybe buff marauder range by 1, so you can use them to defend vs stalker pressure instead of tanks?

corsairs can't lift hydras with graviton
aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-03 23:43:13
September 03 2013 23:19 GMT
#7745
@Obelisk

Like many suggestions I get for new units/spells, it sounds fun and can surely work. But I am not willing to add anything new like that at this point. Every large new thing requires work in the editor and balance tweak.

@Bug list

Yeah we found some nasty bugs today. It will hopefully be fixed by tomorrow (unless some bug is really cruel)


"scv calldown cooldown only hurts newer players, and actually does nothing to limit good players, maybe we should remove it"


wat?

Creator of Starbow
Fishgle
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-03 23:42:45
September 03 2013 23:42 GMT
#7746
I think it was Xiphias that said that. the idea is that a good player will use scv calldown every time he has enough energy for it, so the cooldown doesn't actually affect him. thought it was an interesting idea so i wrote it down. kind of an unimportant change if it happened imo, but i might be wrong
aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
September 03 2013 23:42 GMT
#7747
@SCV without a cooldown
Imba like nothing else? I took some harassment damage. Instant fix.

@Goliaths smaller
Gonna happen slightly. Aoe will be slightly better. Their dps vs melee will be slightly better.
It is mainly because goliath is huge compared to a tank.

@Sieged tank spreading
Easy fix

@Marauder range
intentional. If marauders have the same range as a stalker at any point they hardcounter them seriously hard. You can't even retreat and fire because your stalkers just die. Marauders are still great for pressure and picking off stalkers. Get stim and you can actually chase them down no problem.
Soft counters <3
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
September 04 2013 02:03 GMT
#7748
On September 04 2013 02:52 Kabel wrote:
@Foxxan

?

Are you referring to the Templar archives example?

yes
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-04 03:50:51
September 04 2013 03:29 GMT
#7749
I figured out why the siege tanks were bugged. They've been bugged for a LONG time this means too.

When Kabel added in dropships picking up sieged tanks, he had to make tanks able to move (but super super slow of course).

If you issue a move command to a unit somewhere what happens?
They don't attack anything on the way. The looooooooong trip 3 meters away for a sieged tank ahahaha.

Easy fix though. The siege tank will now technically be able to shoot while moving .


Edit: BTW! Next time there is a bug, write down what time it is and mabye where on the map. Hard to narrow down certain bugs without this.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-04 07:38:06
September 04 2013 06:06 GMT
#7750
What I've changed (Kabel hasn't uploaded yet).
-Goliath size reduced.

-Sieged tanks now fire properly

-Sieged tank attack rate reduce to match bw (10% did the trick)

-Unsieged tank attack rate reduced to match bw (10% did the trick)

-All funny business with AOE, shields, siege and spider mine fire fixed (cross your fingers)

-unsieged tank actor fixed

-corsair gravitor should now be able to target medium units

-marine stands in place for a lot less time than before

-Warp prism acceleration slightly (really slightly) nerfed. Nothing further due to the sc2 engine.
I haven't been able to replicate BW shuttle micro in my allotted time.
In BW you'd want to keep the shuttle moving because shuttles drop off units have a lengthy acceleration process. You'd want to keep the shuttle in motion to increase the agility of the shuttle, not to mention survivability.
This makes reaver drops in sbow SO much easier to perform than was realistic in BW.

To get an idea of what I mean see:
+ Show Spoiler +

It really makes reaver harass recquire a lot more attention and care. A shuttle that is standing at a dead stop takes a significant amount of time to accelerate again drastically reducing your mobility.


Edit:@Warp Prism
Actually!!!! I got it working. Shuttle micro incoming ^^.


Edit: Upgrades for full shield weapons fixed
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
September 04 2013 07:28 GMT
#7751
VOD from yesterday. I plan to upload at least one more, a bit busy atm:

aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-04 08:21:07
September 04 2013 07:50 GMT
#7752
@Xiphias It was actually quite entertaining to see your first person stream of the game we played. I had like 4 templar with full energy by a hatch full of drones I just completely sent to their deaths. Easy to miss so much stuff in a game.


Regarding the Lalush vs Hider game. If anyone see's any bugs they were talking about in that replay, lemme know what time? And where? I fixed the siege tank not firing bug.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9388 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-04 08:30:39
September 04 2013 08:29 GMT
#7753
On September 04 2013 16:50 decemberscalm wrote:
@Xiphias It was actually quite entertaining to see your first person stream of the game we played. I had like 4 templar with full energy by a hatch full of drones I just completely sent to their deaths. Easy to miss so much stuff in a game.


Regarding the Lalush vs Hider game. If anyone see's any bugs they were talking about in that replay, lemme know what time? And where? I fixed the siege tank not firing bug.


When Xiphias for instance talked about how I likely would have died if i didn't have high ground early game, I believe it is actually quite the opposite. My immortals missed shots from the high ground, and I would have done a lot better if I had a better concave and fighted from the low ground vs low ground.

Further, also look at the time where I attacked either his 3rd or 4th (don't remember which one) and he came to defend. Chances are that the game would have gone heavily in my favour if my immortals didn't miss like 3-4 shots in a row. I remember target firing his tanks (that wasn't repaired btw) and they just wouldn't die due to the high-ground miss bug.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
September 04 2013 08:36 GMT
#7754
On September 04 2013 17:29 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2013 16:50 decemberscalm wrote:
@Xiphias It was actually quite entertaining to see your first person stream of the game we played. I had like 4 templar with full energy by a hatch full of drones I just completely sent to their deaths. Easy to miss so much stuff in a game.


Regarding the Lalush vs Hider game. If anyone see's any bugs they were talking about in that replay, lemme know what time? And where? I fixed the siege tank not firing bug.


When Xiphias for instance talked about how I likely would have died if i didn't have high ground early game, I believe it is actually quite the opposite. My immortals missed shots from the high ground, and I would have done a lot better if I had a better concave and fighted from the low ground vs low ground.

Further, also look at the time where I attacked either his 3rd or 4th (don't remember which one) and he came to defend. Chances are that the game would have gone heavily in my favour if my immortals didn't miss like 3-4 shots in a row. I remember target firing his tanks (that wasn't repaired btw) and they just wouldn't die due to the high-ground miss bug.

I looked through it real quick looking for any times that bug happened and couldn't find any. Went to work on the rest of the patch.

I need exact times and rough locations on the map to know where the damage bugs are happening or I won't be able to narrow down what exactly is happening and how to fix it.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
September 04 2013 08:45 GMT
#7755
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9388 Posts
September 04 2013 09:10 GMT
#7756
On September 04 2013 17:36 decemberscalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2013 17:29 Hider wrote:
On September 04 2013 16:50 decemberscalm wrote:
@Xiphias It was actually quite entertaining to see your first person stream of the game we played. I had like 4 templar with full energy by a hatch full of drones I just completely sent to their deaths. Easy to miss so much stuff in a game.


Regarding the Lalush vs Hider game. If anyone see's any bugs they were talking about in that replay, lemme know what time? And where? I fixed the siege tank not firing bug.


When Xiphias for instance talked about how I likely would have died if i didn't have high ground early game, I believe it is actually quite the opposite. My immortals missed shots from the high ground, and I would have done a lot better if I had a better concave and fighted from the low ground vs low ground.

Further, also look at the time where I attacked either his 3rd or 4th (don't remember which one) and he came to defend. Chances are that the game would have gone heavily in my favour if my immortals didn't miss like 3-4 shots in a row. I remember target firing his tanks (that wasn't repaired btw) and they just wouldn't die due to the high-ground miss bug.

I looked through it real quick looking for any times that bug happened and couldn't find any. Went to work on the rest of the patch.

I need exact times and rough locations on the map to know where the damage bugs are happening or I won't be able to narrow down what exactly is happening and how to fix it.


Look at 13:14. A tank is being focussed by multiple shots. It barely takes damage.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9388 Posts
September 04 2013 09:16 GMT
#7757
On September 04 2013 17:45 decemberscalm wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-ufq0D7uyE&feature=youtu.be


Not sure about this. Feels like making things more difficult for the sake of it. Not sure the game becomes more fun to watch/spectate because you now need to move around with the warp prism constnatly (?).
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark697 Posts
September 04 2013 09:51 GMT
#7758
Prism/Reaver needed a nerf - this is a good way of nerfing the combo without gutting the Reavers capability as a defensive and area control unit or making the Warp Prism overly vulnerable to Scourges or other fast air units
Go try StarBow on the Arcade. TL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9388 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-04 10:13:04
September 04 2013 10:06 GMT
#7759
Prism/Reaver needed a nerf - this is a good way of nerfing the combo without gutting the Reavers capability as a defensive and area control unit or making the Warp Prism overly vulnerable to Scourges or other fast air units


Abduct "counters" warp prism + reaver. Warp prism doesn't need a nerf IMO. I prefer that we have some stuff which isolated feels imbalanced, as long as it 1) it provides fun gameplay and 2) Other races have fun "imba" stuff as well.

Specifically regarding reaver; It will be weaker vs armored units in a new patch so it doesn't overlap with the immortal.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-04 10:26:38
September 04 2013 10:11 GMT
#7760
@Branching out Starbow from BW

Now almost all core units have BW stats. Only build time might need to be adjusted. In other words, we seem to have quite a stable basic balance foundation now. But since we have some stuff that are not in BW, they require a different approach.

Suggestions:

Matrix at Medics

>>>+ Show Spoiler +

Right now Medics start with it. When that got implemented, a long time ago, Marines were the only core bio unit. That is not the case anymore. The spell is arguably broken in the early game in combination with Marauders. I still prefer the spell to stay in the game for two reasons:
1) It helps to give an advantage to a Terran player who goes Bio + Tanks + Air units, compared to Terran who goes only pure mech.
2) If I remove it, the Medic has no other spell at all. Which just feels lame. And thus another spell must be invented or recreated from BW.

My suggestion is to just let it have an upgrade at the tech lab. Costs 100/100 BT 110 or 140 seconds.
Then we can tweak stats if needed.
<<<

Planetary Fortress

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
I genereally do not like to remove or add stuff at this point. But PF does arguably have a bad impact on the gameplay.
It makes smaller harassment and attacks very hard. Two solutions:

1) Reduce the duration and cooldown of the activation. Maybe 15 seconds duration, 60 seconds cooldown, instead of 30 seconds duration and two minutes cooldown. Becomes more crucial to use it at the right time. Easier to harass PF now?
2) Remove it.
<<<

Reaper

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
The dilemma: No Zerg units have speed bonus on creep. Which means that the normal fast Reaper becomes very strong vs Zerg. Thus the current Reaper is quite slow. And useless.

Potential solutions:
1) Give it speed ca 3.25. (Zerglings have speed 2.83, Stalker 2.65) Not insanely fast Reapers at least.
2) Just let Zerglings benefit from speed bonus on Creep.
<<<

Nerve Jammer & Safeguard

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Right now, both of those spells only affect friendly units. Since there is no team color on the spells, it will sooner or later be confusing in mirror matches, if those spells see play.

Solution:
- Make them affect both friendly and enemy units within the area.
<<<

Stalker/Immortal

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
I do think they will be better for the game than the Dragoon. Leads to more variation.

The Stalker currently costs the same amound of resources as a Dragoon, but have 40 less total life, and worse damage.
There has been a lot of talk about this in the in game chat. But arguably does the Stalker need a small dmg boost vs medium units. (Vultures, Banshee, Hydralisks, Mutalisks)

Suggestion:
- Stalker 12 dmg vs armored, 14 vs light, 16 vs medium. (They currently have 12 vs armored, 14 vs light and medium)
- Vulture 90 life instead of 80. (So the same amount of Stalker shots is required to kill a Vulture)

This would make Stalker a better damage support unit in PvZ, where they currently seem very weak.
This would also help to make Stalkers have a more distinct role in TvP. Better at cleaing up Vultures compared to Immortals.

Zealot - Tank dmg, absorb fire
Stalker - Clean up Vultures, Mines, Banshees
Immortal - Deal the damage vs Tanks, Goliaths
<<<

Flat damage dealers in Protoss

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Reavers, Storm and Archons deal the same amount of damage to everything. Just as in BW. But since the tech tree is different in Starbow, I think there needs to be some variation here, so we encourage different units for different situations.

Suggestion:

- Archon dmg changed FROM 30 vs all, TO 20 vs armored, 25 vs medium, 30 vs light.
- Psi storm dmg changed FROM 112 dmg over 6 seconds, TO ca 60-75 vs light, 90 vs medium, 120 vs armored over 6 sec
- Reaver dmg changed FROM 100 vs all, to 60 vs armored, 80 vs light, 100 vs medium
- Immortal dmg remains strong vs armored targets.

The values are just a suggestion. The point is to make the units/spells in the same tech tree not overlap, and not be super strong vs everything.
<<<

Dark Swarm


>>>+ Show Spoiler +

Not sure what to do with this one. It just feels very different in the SC2 engine. Any suggestions of small tweaks that can be made?

The problem is that the spell is super easy to execute, and gives a huuuge advantage to the army, which allows it to A-move into well.. anything. In BW was it hard to get Dark Swarm off and time so the army attacked together with it.
<<<

Null ward

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Dmg increased from 20 vs all, 15 vs light, 25 vs armored, TO 30 vs all, 25 vs light, 35 vs armored. Larger splash area.
<<<

Dropships can pick up sieged Tanks

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
This was introduced as a way to give mobility and harassment potential to Terran, at a time in Starbow when that was considered hard to do. Especially Protoss could very easily defend vs Terran harassment due to Warp in and Blink. Which required Terran to be "quicker" as well. That is no longer the case, since Blink Stalkers are weaker, and Warp tech higher up in the tech tree.

The question is if this shall be kept or not.
<<<

Thoughts?

Ps. All of this is not my suggestions.
Creator of Starbow
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