EPT
With buffed mines, siege tanks, and a slight hp nerf to tanks prism dropping is going to be reeeeeally rewarding now.
[A] Starbow - Page 390
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
With buffed mines, siege tanks, and a slight hp nerf to tanks prism dropping is going to be reeeeeally rewarding now. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
And. Change the reaper to 1 supply? Any problem with this? What does this accomplish? (I know Sumadin has talked a lot about it for a long time now. But it is not supposed to be an army/combat unit.) Lower supply cost per Reaper means: - It is easier to have more Reapers early (does not "fill up" the supply cap as fast) - Terran can have more Reapers at all stages of the game, without it having as a large negative impact on the total army supply Do we really want this? I fear it will be easer to mass Reapers vs Z early. IMO the Reaper is a unit that "should" see play in quite few numbers. Especially with the Engineered Explosives upgrade, which allows it to plant bombs on the ground in the mid game. (In pure stats, the ability seems powerful. But no one has ever used it, as far as I know) By lower supply cost, we encourage Terran to get larger groups of them. (With 2 supply is there a bigger sacrifice if T want to obtain a large number of Reapers) Isn´t just a speed boost enough? Just discovered there is a problem with the maurauder vs protoss. Right now it actually soft counters immortals, even without medi healing and matrix (and ofc it rapes both slowzealots and stalkers). Im not sure how to fix this problem in a good way though, but as a temporary solution its damage vs armored probably needs to be reduced a bit. I found a bug. Marauder deals double dmg vs all targets  Look at that early push from Lalush in the VOD. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Here is what I have in mind for tonights patch: - Matrix requires an upgrade researched at Barrack tech lab. Costs 100/100, BT 140 seconds. Require Factory. - PF cannon now lasts 15 seconds, cooldown 60 seconds. (Instead of 30 seconds and cooldown 120 seconds) - Archon deals 20 dmg vs armored, 25 vs medium, 30 vs light. (To not overlap with the Immortal) - Nerve Jammer & Safeguard affects both enemy and friendly units - Dark Swarm cast range reduced from 7 to 3. - Reaper speed increased from 2.7 to 3.15 (Need to try it in a real game to see if it works or not.) - Null ward dmg increased by 10. (Now deals 30 vs medium, 35 vs armored, 25 vs light.) Slightly larger splash area I do not touch Stalker, Reaver, Storm, Vulture, nor Chrono boost yet. I want to wait some more with them, so I do not do anything drastic. Any comments on this before its uploaded? (I will have it up in ca 30 minutes) | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
On September 05 2013 02:14 Laertes wrote: On a side note: I like promoting starbow by trying to get people in chat channels to play but I'm tired of A) Getting a jerkwad who plays me thinks starbow is boring and then won't play again, or B) Getting someone I beat easily and then they don't wanna play again. What should I do? Can I ever win against retards like this? hah. i have the same problem. and no clue what to do. half the time they leave like 5 minutes into the game, it's annoying. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The best way to get people interested is probably to make it accessible at many levels: easy to read what is in this mod, easy to watch Vods/replays/stream, and easy to try it out in for example the unit tester or vs the AI. Give ways for people to explore this in their own way. Atm, I have no information at all in the opening post. The wiki is outdated. We only have this thread and the stream-thread as the main channels for new people finding out about this project. Sometimes players friends get invited. As I always say, once Starbow become more stable, I intend to do better advertising to see if more people find this enjoyable. Patch uploaded now btw. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
With 2 supply is there a bigger sacrifice if T want to obtain a large number of Reapers But there is no where near enough reward to make this sacrifice. Not a chance. Lets do a simple comparison. 1 Reaper vs 2 Banelings. Both are 2 supply and cost 50 gas. (All that matters past the early game, mineral cost really doesn't.) The Banelings have more life(Combined)!! Yes the unit whose only task in the game is to die, have more durability per supply than the reaper. The Banelings on connection will do 70 damage on their preferred target and 160 damage vs buildings. This is WAY more likely to actually hit, than the bombs of reapers who only does 60 damage vs units and 120 vs buildings. And in the end, even banelings are a little bit underused because in Starbow because there are better options for Zerg and they are quite costy. PF cannon now lasts 15 seconds, cooldown 60 seconds. (Instead of 30 seconds and cooldown 120 seconds) I have made no less than 2 posts about why this is a bad idea... Hope for the balance of the game, that I am wrong. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Sorry, but I really do not get your point with the Reaper, nor with PF. The Banelings have more life(Combined)!! Yes the unit whose only task in the game is to die, have more durability per supply than the reaper. So? I have made no less than 2 posts about why this is a bad idea... Hope for the balance of the game, that I am wrong. But I do not get your arguements. You say T needs to have PF. With so much BW balance as we currently use, that does not seem to be the case. (No PF in BW, and Terran still had arguably the strongest defence in the game) Now the PF rather seems to make attacks and harassment nearly impossible. Which just leads to lame gameplay. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 05 2013 03:06 Kabel wrote: @Sumadin Sorry, but I really do not get your point with the Reaper, nor with PF. So? But I do not get your arguements. You say T needs to have PF. With so much BW balance as we currently use, that does not seem to be the case. (No PF in BW, and Terran still had arguably the strongest defence in the game) Now the PF rather seems to make attacks and harassment nearly impossible. Which just leads to lame gameplay. Banelings are nowhere near as mobile, don't regen life, don't have spells, cannot jump up cliffs etc. Bunkers do indeed exist for Terran. Siege Tanks are possibly one of the best units you can put in a defensive position against armies. Not to mention that Terran doesn't need to cover as many bases as Protoss or Zerg. I think with better maps PF will only hinder the game play we aim to create. If we simply stuck to SC2 maps with giant wide open expansions where you are meant to defend your bases by having your 200/200 ball in the right position to counter the oponnents 200/200 then yes I'd agree with you. But as it is with spider mines, siege tanks, removal of super mobile base busters I can firmly say I really don't think we need planetary nexus or PF in Starbow. BW eco certainly helps mech stay in the game against the much more mobile and expansion crazy P and Z. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Both are 2 supply and cost 50 gas. (All that matters past the early game, mineral cost really doesn't.) what? Minerals doesnt matters? | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
because of the danger of scouts a terran needs some aa. Not a committment but some form of aa. wether it be marines or Goliaths. so we assume a terran who wants to play normal in the beginning, goes for a fe without gas and makes 2 faxes. In order to have decent antiair AND potential ground threats you have to get 2 techlabs, or at least one! first thing you always want to get is a siege tank with siege. and then you start pumping 1-2 goliaths to have aa against scouts or sentinels. Since you dont know how many he will build and since you want to leave your base sometime you have to get turrets up. let us just assume the harrass of the protoss does, because you prepared well for it, no significant damage. By then when you have somewhat of an army and you want to push the p of your frontdoor, since he is already taking his third. but then it comes dadaaa safeguard, which is basically a darkswarm at 10 minutes and when you go mech that is hard to deal with. so you either snipe the 1-3 sentinels with goliaths and end then up with a useless ground army, yes weakened goliaths are useless shit vs gateway units or yo make too many siege tanks/vults and have no counter to that spell. so you end up in the situation of feeling very uncomfortable sitting in your base, struggling to get your third up, while the protoss is already teching and taking his fourth. and all you have got to counterplay it are vultures. yes vultures are very good, and yes contains did happen in bw too. But back then terrans didnt have to deal with darkswarm protoss and air threat. yes flying tickle cannons can actually kill workers, so you have to let anti air at home / or at least get turrets. I dont want to say that "there is absolutely no way to beat it" but I think the sentinel deserves a slight hp nerf for beeing too awesome of a unit one last thing for december: putindagoons! | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 05 2013 09:15 404AlphaSquad wrote: Great games today. But seriously take a second look to those sentinels. I think they are too strong for their investment. Here is my reasoning why: because of the danger of scouts a terran needs some aa. Not a committment but some form of aa. wether it be marines or Goliaths. so we assume a terran who wants to play normal in the beginning, goes for a fe without gas and makes 2 faxes. In order to have decent antiair AND potential ground threats you have to get 2 techlabs, or at least one! first thing you always want to get is a siege tank with siege. and then you start pumping 1-2 goliaths to have aa against scouts or sentinels. Since you dont know how many he will build and since you want to leave your base sometime you have to get turrets up. let us just assume the harrass of the protoss does, because you prepared well for it, no significant damage. By then when you have somewhat of an army and you want to push the p of your frontdoor, since he is already taking his third. but then it comes dadaaa safeguard, which is basically a darkswarm at 10 minutes and when you go mech that is hard to deal with. so you either snipe the 1-3 sentinels with goliaths and end then up with a useless ground army, yes weakened goliaths are useless shit vs gateway units or yo make too many siege tanks/vults and have no counter to that spell. so you end up in the situation of feeling very uncomfortable sitting in your base, struggling to get your third up, while the protoss is already teching and taking his fourth. and all you have got to counterplay it are vultures. yes vultures are very good, and yes contains did happen in bw too. But back then terrans didnt have to deal with darkswarm protoss and air threat. yes flying tickle cannons can actually kill workers, so you have to let anti air at home / or at least get turrets. I dont want to say that "there is absolutely no way to beat it" but I think the sentinel deserves a slight hp nerf for beeing too awesome of a unit one last thing for december: putindagoons! Deflier cast range got cut down to 3. Sentinels are officially better right now due to tech tree placement, speed, cost, and build time. Hey, guess what. My TL icon is a dragoon right now :D BWHAHAHA. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Some stuff to keep an eye on: Stalker + Show Spoiler + We now use a lot of BW balance. The Stalker is now at the place in the tech tree where the Dragoon used to be. Lets compare them: Exakt stats: + Show Spoiler + Stalker 80 life, 60 shield 12 dmg vs armored, 14 vs light and medium Dragoon 100 life, 80 shield 20 dmg vs armored, 15 vs medium, 10 vs light Attack speed, cost, movement speed, build time equal. Dragoons gained +2 dmg from each weapon upgrade. Stalkers only +1. Stalkers have 40 less total life, deal less dmg vs armored & medium units, benefit less from upgrades, but are better vs light units, easier to micro, smaller model size which is good vs lings and can Blink + Warp in. But they cost the same. As many of you have pointed out, with the current BW balance, the Stalker feels weak in PvZ and PvT. (Especially now when Vultures deal full dmg vs shields) Thereby I consider to give it +2 dmg vs medium. (12 vs armored, 14 vs light, 16 vs medium) This would make them kill Hydralisks and Vultures in 5-shots instead of 6. They would also be better vs Dropship, Banshee, Sentinel and Baneling. Dragoons did however kill Vultures & Hydras in 6-shots in BW. But they had so many other advantages too, like higher total life and better dmg vs armored. Stalkers do not have those advantages. What do we want to reach in the match-ups? + Show Spoiler + PvZ: If Stalkers become better vs medium, they become more viable in the early/mid game, since they are more useful vs both Hydras & Mutalisks. Atm they do however die vs Hydralisk pressure, and is thereby quite a dangerous unit to get early. Thus Protoss gains more build order and unit compositions alternatives, and must not go for Corsairs, mass Zealots, fast AoE etc. They might be able to survive longer on core units and have better map presence. PvT: Better dmg vs medium might encourage more Stalker play, both in the army and as base defence. Atm, Stalkers have a hard time to deal with Dropships + Banshees, due to its low dmg output. Immortals seems to take care just fine of Vultures and Tanks. Mixing in Stalkers in the army will now be a more valuable way to take care of Vultures. PvP: The only medium unit in the P arsenal is the Sentinel. Unintended consequenses: It shuts down Vulture harassment too hard. But if P goes too heavy on early Stalkers, T now has other ways to punish that: for example early Marauder + Tank pushes? In BW, how could T punish a P player who went for pure Dragoons early game / early mid game? Another approach is to revert Stalker shield to 80. Sentinel >>>+ Show Spoiler + This unit got added at a time where there was no Immortal. No BW balance. Just an attempt to fill a missing spot at the Robotic facility. A way to make P able to take early map control/scout/harass, another way for area control via Null ward, and make P able to assault Terran sieged positions with Safeguard. (At a time where it looked very hard and the match-up was quite stale) The unit is arguably not needed anymore. Even though I think the concept of the unit and the spells are ok. If we want to keep it in the game, and at its place in the tech tree - early/mid game caster/support unit with harass potential, Safeguard can not be this strong. When I considered to bring back the Dragoon to replace Stalker/Immortal, I also planned to move the Sentinel back to the Robotic facility and make Safeguard an upgrade at Robo bay. That would put it higher up in the tech tree at least, while not overlapping with Arbiter/Carrier tech at the Fleet Beacon. (But at this point, I will continue with the Immortal/Stalker, unless we encounter balance problems that are unfixable.) Potentially can Safeguard be redesigned/readjusted in some way. Give shield bonus? High shield generation? Just plus shield armor? Double all armor? Some other kind of protective advantage. But first we must ofc ask us what we want the spell to help Protoss do. In what situations shall it be good to add in Sentinels and save energy for Safeguard? Vs what units? Can Safeguard do something Protoss can not do otherwise? Any ideas? Apart from Safeguard, the Sentinel seems to be quite beefy. Since they come quite early in the game, it is often hard for T to deal with them with the first Goliath. So I consider to reduce life by 20. (Total life is now 100 instead of 120) Shock at Ghost + Show Spoiler + I consider to make it only affect mechanical units. Right now it affects any target. Once players discover this, I think it will be broken. The ultimate response vs everything. It can deal with all units for Protoss. Both HT, Archon and Reaver. The only sad thing is that the Ghost will be severely worse in TvZ. Except for Nukes. Then ofc the stats of Shock surely needs to be rebalanced. I will be working tonight, so I will only be on B.net up to ca 19.30 before I have to go. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
This approach makes them much stronger in small skirmishes and weaker in larger battles, cementing them as a unit that exels in being sneaky and picking battles. With the focus on damage to light and medium units they will be great at fighting other fast units like vultures or mutalisks, but horrible at dealing with the slower more powerful ones like tanks or immortals. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
Also looked a bit more careful into the safeguard range. It is indeed quite insane. Feels like it is 10 + radius at the moment. I suggest we also nerf it by 1 or so (along with HP nerf). | ||
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craaaaack
479 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Also looked a bit more careful into the safeguard range. It is indeed quite insane. Feels like it is 10 + radius at the moment. I suggest we also nerf it by 1 or so (along with HP nerf). Yeah shorter casting range and maybe even smaller areas might be helpful. It is after all a midgame spell that is available on a quite cheap caster. If I make Safeguard an upgrade at Fleet beacon, I fear it will be very close to Carrier & Arbiter tech. All of those units help to deal with Siege tanks. I like that they are spread out across the tech tree: - Midgame: Sentinel - Late game: Carrier - Very late game: Arbiter Or something like that. Where can I find a changelog? Or a complete list of all units and stats in the current build? After I read the last 5 pages of this thread I came to the conclusion that the wiki page from OP is outdated. I´ve been sloppy with this. An update on the wiki, and an update on the OP will come. Some kind of summary, In the meantime, I recommend you to go to the Arcade on EU, search for Starbow and host a game vs the computer. So you check out the tech tree. Or look at the Starbow Unit Tester for details of all stats. Or join us on EU when we play during the evenings. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
- Vultures get very easily surrounded by speedlings which IMO makes them very mediocore as an opener vs zerg. Zerg have hydras and thus speedlings shouldn't be able to trade evenly with vultures. I suggest we try a small speed buff for slow vultures here. A buff from 3.38 to 3.6 sounds good I believe. - Reapers should probably get its old attack speed back (+10%) since it is quiet annoying that your attack gets interrupted all the time when you try to micro it. - Mutalisk bounce damage is apparently 9/5/3 rather than 9/3/1 (as it was in bw) | ||
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