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#the attack system
i have tested around a tiny bit and i feel its more delayed here than in bw(which is not good)
The hydra, the goliath(especially the air attack, the ground not really checked), Zealot(?)(very unsure about zealot, but still feels slightly delayed).
Have not tested everyunit at moment. Could be that almost every unit have more delay which they stand in place after shooting.
Have not really thought about before they shoot yet.
Since also the speed is faster, it should be even faster than in bw (the attack system)
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Patch now uploaded.
Bug fixes.
- Stalker dmg increased from 14 to 16 vs normal
- Sentinel life reduced from 60 to 40. (Still 60 shields)
- Safeguard cast range reduced by 1
Quote from December:
A lot of BT, research and upgrade times are more reflective of BW now.
Gl hf
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Some quick balance thoughts.
Maurauder
Tested maurauder vs stalker in the unit tester and it was IMO too much in the favor of the stalker. I think it should be pretty close to a 1:1 ratio if bio or various maurauder type of pressure should have any hope of being viable/a threat.
The problem is also that stim doesn't really benfit the maurauder that much as it takes away 20 HP (I think) which is quite a lot for a 100 HP unit. I wouldn't mind seeing something like 110-120 HP for the maurauder (now that it is slower and lower range that seems fair).
Immortal damage
I still prefer that we increase Immortals damage vs armored with 1 and reduce its damage vs medium with 1 so a mix of stalkers and immortals better resembles Dragoons.
Since Stalkers are better vs medium than dragoons are --> Immortals needs to be worse vs medium than dragoons are to get a proper balance.
Dropship + siege tank pickup
I think a better balanced solution than making siege pick up an upgrade is to give it two modes;
Mode 1; This can use the speed ability but no siege pick up
Mode 2: This can't use the speed ability but can instead pick up siege tanks
So you can't use both of them at the same time
I think eventually the combo of A) Strong vultures, B) Dropship speed and C) Siege pick up at the same time, will break the balance of the game since a good terran that simply turtles with his main army and harasses like a mad man can't be beaten.
Obviously this isn't something we need to change/implement ASAP, but I think that if my theory gets prooven right, then we should strongly consider this solution.
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Pathfinder is in arcade on NA. EU is bugged till Kabel gets back.
Andromeda isn't working correctly.
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Wait, so the Sentinel is still in the Stargate as well? I had thought that was reverted.
That means we currently have a robotic unit in the SG instead of the Robo and a cybernetic-bio unit in the Robo instead of the Gateway. This is just plain silly.
All of this hassle trying to find a role for the Stalker is due to the fact that you are treating it as the new Dragoon, when in reality it is an entirely new unit, and the Immortal is the new Dragoon (quite literally, lorewise). If we make the Immortal reflect the Dragoon's stats and put it in the Gateway where it belongs, that opens up more freedom to make the Stalker function the way it needs to in order to be an interesting and unique unit in its own right.
I know that Warp-In is an issue, but I've already made the solution to that very clear - just don't let Immortals be warped in! In fact, we can take that a step further, and make it so Zealots and High Templars cannot be Warped In either, which also allows us to reinstate the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade. Have Warp-In be solely the property of the Dark units - Stalkers and DT's, which make the best use of it anyways. Then we don't have to worry so much about balancing all the Warp In timings and doing weird things like making it require Templar Archives etc.
I think we are making this far, far more complicated than it needs to be. A few small changes to where units are produced from/what they require and done.
Immortal - Gateway, requires CyberCore, takes the old Dragoon spot.
Stalker - Requires Twilight Council, which also unlocks Warp Gate. WG can only warp in Dark units.
Sentinel - Robo Bay, less overlap with Arbiter, puts a caster unit in each of Protoss' 3 tech paths.
This would solve like 2 design problems, 3 lore problems (which should not be overlooked, as they will make the mod feel unpolished and unprofessional when we try to push it to the public), and who knows how many future balance problems as people constantly go back and forth concerning Warp Gate mechanics and Stalker HP/damage which does not match up with the BW foundation we are trying to replicate.
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Unit test map "Starbow Tester 2.0" Updated!
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On September 06 2013 00:44 Foxxan wrote:
#the attack system
i have tested around a tiny bit and i feel its more delayed here than in bw(which is not good)
The hydra, the goliath(especially the air attack, the ground not really checked), Zealot(?)(very unsure about zealot, but still feels slightly delayed).
Have not tested everyunit at moment. Could be that almost every unit have more delay which they stand in place after shooting.
Have not really thought about before they shoot yet.
Since also the speed is faster, it should be even faster than in bw (the attack system)
Agree with this observation. Feels like you have to wait for the animation to finish before the units can be moved.
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On September 06 2013 05:41 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 00:44 Foxxan wrote:
#the attack system
i have tested around a tiny bit and i feel its more delayed here than in bw(which is not good)
The hydra, the goliath(especially the air attack, the ground not really checked), Zealot(?)(very unsure about zealot, but still feels slightly delayed).
Have not tested everyunit at moment. Could be that almost every unit have more delay which they stand in place after shooting.
Have not really thought about before they shoot yet.
Since also the speed is faster, it should be even faster than in bw (the attack system)
Agree with this observation. Feels like you have to wait for the animation to finish before the units can be moved.
With latency in mind generally core units at have lower damage point (how long it takes for the unit to start its attack and actually hit) but the amount of time they are unable to move right after attacking has been made slightly longer instead.
I could make it more true to BW, but it might make players playing across NA->EU or EU->NA have a rougher time than should be trying to compensate for when each attack hits.
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NA patched again.
Reaper stand in place removed (relationship between reaper and ling speed was great).
Reactors fixed.
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I could go early from work. I patch EU now to fix the crucial bugs.
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I like it tho,
dragoon to gateway
sentinel on robotic,
dunno what role sentinel should have.
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On September 06 2013 07:59 Laertes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 05:15 SmileZerg wrote:
Wait, so the Sentinel is still in the Stargate as well? I had thought that was reverted.
That means we currently have a robotic unit in the SG instead of the Robo and a cybernetic-bio unit in the Robo instead of the Gateway. This is just plain silly.
All of this hassle trying to find a role for the Stalker is due to the fact that you are treating it as the new Dragoon, when in reality it is an entirely new unit, and the Immortal is the new Dragoon (quite literally, lorewise). If we make the Immortal reflect the Dragoon's stats and put it in the Gateway where it belongs, that opens up more freedom to make the Stalker function the way it needs to in order to be an interesting and unique unit in its own right.
I know that Warp-In is an issue, but I've already made the solution to that very clear - just don't let Immortals be warped in! In fact, we can take that a step further, and make it so Zealots and High Templars cannot be Warped In either, which also allows us to reinstate the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade. Have Warp-In be solely the property of the Dark units - Stalkers and DT's, which make the best use of it anyways. Then we don't have to worry so much about balancing all the Warp In timings and doing weird things like making it require Templar Archives etc.
I think we are making this far, far more complicated than it needs to be. A few small changes to where units are produced from/what they require and done.
Immortal - Gateway, requires CyberCore, takes the old Dragoon spot.
Stalker - Requires Twilight Council, which also unlocks Warp Gate. WG can only warp in Dark units.
Sentinel - Robo Bay, less overlap with Arbiter, puts a caster unit in each of Protoss' 3 tech paths.
This would solve like 2 design problems, 3 lore problems (which should not be overlooked, as they will make the mod feel unpolished and unprofessional when we try to push it to the public), and who knows how many future balance problems as people constantly go back and forth concerning Warp Gate mechanics and Stalker HP/damage which does not match up with the BW foundation we are trying to replicate. We're getting somewhere smile! You have to relax with these drastic revamps man. Like seriously, we are close to making everything work there is no reason to do this lol.
I know Kabel wanted to make a cut-off for drastic changes, but I think this one is CRUCIAL given the current design philosophy of starting from a solid BW foundation. An exception should be made. If we want the same dynamic with core units, the Immortal needs to be in the same slot in the tech tree as the Dragoon, NOT the Stalker.
I'm not suggesting any stat changes, apart from making the Immortal more similar to the Dragoon (if necessary, I'm not sure how they match up at the moment, it could be fine). I let other people fiddle with the fine tuning of numbers for balance. This is just a slight rearranging of the tech tree in a way that makes sense, from a BW-based design perspective and a flavor perspective.
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Idea:
Make irradiate better vs light, less so vs armored
Why?
Better vs defilers, mutas, ghosts
Worse vs guardians, devourers, ultralisks(x.x damnit)
It would still do enough damage vs lurkers to kill them
So it would be slightly less of a do everything and more vs z spell.
Only problem is you really want sci vessels to be a sort of attrition vs ultralisks.
edit:x.x. You reeeealllllly need irradiate to be able to put a dent in ultras. Mabye % life damage?
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Also, in BW did not one irradiate NOT kill a lurker (but only left with with a very few HP?)
I'd like irradiate not to be a free kill for units with lurker HP or higher. (Like, it can kill drones, lings, blings adn hydras in one irradiate, but not lurkers, guardians, ultras, devours. Not sure about mutalisks. Maybe let them also have a few HP left so you actually need other units to finish them off.)
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On September 06 2013 16:13 Xiphias wrote:
Also, in BW did not one irradiate NOT kill a lurker (but only left with with a very few HP?)
I'd like irradiate not to be a free kill for units with lurker HP or higher. (Like, it can kill drones, lings, blings adn hydras in one irradiate, but not lurkers, guardians, ultras, devours. Not sure about mutalisks. Maybe let them also have a few HP left so you actually need other units to finish them off.)
Unit: Lurker [Brood War only]
HP: 125
Irradiate deals 250 damage over 30 seconds to biological units, and deals splash
Your statement is just not true.
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yea, you're thinking of Psi Storm, xiphias, which did 112 damage to 125hp lurkers
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edit:x.x. You reeeealllllly need irradiate to be able to put a dent in ultras. Mabye % life damage?
Don't think thats actually the case here in Sbow. Mech has tanks which are good vs ultralisks and maurauders (esp if they get an HP buff as I suggested) should make it easier for bio.
I think one solution is to maintain its current damage vs light and medium and just straight up nerf its vs. armored damage to 60% or so of the current.
Then in return, viking gets a small damage buff vs armored units (which gives this unit a role in the matchup).
@ZvX balance
We discovered some slight balance in this matchup which probably arises due to the queen being a bigger buff than chrono and scv calldown.
In theory though that shouldn't be the big problem as Corsairs have the graviton utility, stalkers should be decent now and toss can add in sentinels. Terrans have siege pick up, speed boost on dropships and better banshees.
However, the problem is that;
1) Yes you can kite with it, but its damage has been nerfed, but its damage is so low that if you rely on it for defense vs mtualisks, then mutalisks can simply kill probes. Takes way too long to kill anything relative to BW atm IMO.
2) Sentinels feel useless vs zerg due to a clear assymmetry between the cost of early game anti-air for zerg and terran, which makes it difficult for us to balance this unit in both matchups. I suggested some small changes to Kabel which should even this out.
3) Mech's harass options are quite bad vs zerg, since zerg simply have total map control in this matchup + creep gives vision. If your vultures or dropships managed to be unseen by overlords or creep, then they will still have to fight spine crawlers at each base. We hope that reapers can solve this issue.
4) Bio hasn't really been compensated which mean early game pressure is a lot weaker. Zerg can put up spine crawlers and move them around to protect 3 bases (while in BW you could only protect 2 bases) and then you can use tranfuse to keep them alive.
Further ofc the threat of banelings also makes clumping up bio units less efficient relative to BW. More buffy maurauder/firebats should help here.
5) Stalker probably suffers a bit from hydra's regenration HP off creep which means they can't 5-shot hydralisks. Removing Hydra HP regeneration off creep is the easy solution here (would also make creep spread more rewarded).
6) Immortals are too weak vs zerg in the midgame. Dragoons have their range upgrade avaiable to them in the midgame and Immortals doesn't which is quite an assymmetrical balance issue.
I suggest we put the range upgrade at cyber core which hopefully should adress that issue in a balanced way. I also suggest that we buff its damage with 1 vs armored units as Immortal IMO needs to be slightly more cost effective than Dragoons given that it comes from a more costly production facilitiy.
To balance TvP mech, Vulture HP should be buffed by 10, which will make Vultures a good buffer unit vs pure immortals, and thus give a clear role to the Stalker in combat.
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EPT
