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Regarding vulture, IMO the most important thing is that it should allow mech to pressure zerg early game. So terran have two early game aggressive options vs zerg;
1) Open bio.
2) Open up vulture/reaper or transition into either mech or bio after that.
Mech becomes quite boring if you just have to sit and wait untill mutalisks are out. IMO the overall playing-and spectator experience is improved if mech has can harass/pressure early game.
To accomplish that, slow-vultures - if decently microed - should be 20-30% cost effective against speedlings.
If this relationship is obtained, then I believe zerg early game scouting will be highly rewarded. While pure speedling style can work against both stuff (as long as you have enough) it is alot more effective that you can scout the reactor vulture/reaper opening and get out hydras in time. Vs the bio opening though getting out hydras isn't a particularly good idea.
The speedling vs vulture relationship has changed quite a lot in the past. Previously we had 4.25 (*0.9) movemnet speed vultures and the pathing made speedlings quite bad vs them. Back then, it was probably slightly too vulture-favored, so a small nerf was just justified. With a more sc2'ish pathing though, Vultures are a lot weaker. We now also have a lower movment speed (3.38) and I believe the moving shot thing probably makes vultures slightly weaker vs speedlings (not sure though).
I doubt that 90 HP vultures will be enough though, thus I also believe slow-vultures should be faster as well. But this is mostly an unit-tester issue I believe (change stats untill the desired scenario is obtained).
Psi storm dmg changed FROM 112 dmg over 6 seconds, TO ca 60-75 vs light
Sc2 is 80 over 4 seconds. I think 80 vs light over 6 seconds is fine IMO.
Not sure what to do with this one. It just feels very different in the SC2 engine. Any suggestions of small tweaks that can be made?
The problem is that the spell is super easy to execute, and gives a huuuge advantage to the army, which allows it to A-move into well.. anything. In BW was it hard to get Dark Swarm off and time so the army attacked together with it.
Let's start by reducing casting range so tanks can target fire them before they cast it (which is impossible if you use DS to protect hydras atm.)
I think its like 5-6 right now. I wouldn't mind seeing something much closer to meele range (2-3).
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Yeah, I think the problem lies in the Defiler not the spell itself. It Dark swarm is too easy to use we should try to hinder the Defiler in getting easy swamf off.
Lower cast cange and slower movement speed are obvious ways to do this.
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This was introduced as a way to give mobility and harassment potential to Terran, at a time in Starbow when that was considered hard to do. Especially Protoss could very easily defend vs Terran harassment due to Warp in and Blink. Which required Terran to be "quicker" as well. That is no longer the case, since Blink Stalkers are weaker, and Warp tech higher up in the tech tree.
The question is if this shall be kept or not.
It is definitely too imbalanced at the moment given all other buffs terran has received/protoss nerfs, but it is insanely fun, so I recommend we make this an upgrade at tech lab for the time being. If it turns out that it is unbalanceable, then we may need to remove it or change it more somehow. But let that be the plan B for now.
Right now Medics start with it. When that got implemented, a long time ago, Marines were the only core bio unit. That is not the case anymore. The spell is arguably broken in the early game in combination with Marauders. I still prefer the spell to stay in the game for two reasons:
1) It helps to give an advantage to a Terran player who goes Bio + Tanks + Air units, compared to Terran who goes only pure mech.
2) If I remove it, the Medic has no other spell at all. Which just feels lame. And thus another spell must be invented or recreated from BW.
My suggestion is to just let it have an upgrade at the tech lab. Costs 100/100 BT 110 or 140 seconds.
Then we can tweak stats if needed.
Give medi the energy upgrade for free and make matrix a midgame upgrade (not early game upgrade). Should require armory/ebay/factory or something like that to be researched.
@ Nexus upgrade
Getting 2 chrono boost after it has been researched is really a bit advantage for protoss as they can chrono out stalker range upgrade constantly. This allows stalkers to attack bunkers quite early --> costs terran money and mining time -->
I am quite sure that it is optimal to research it almost as soon as possible for your nexu's in TvP mech implies that there isn't a real decision here. I would prefer that chrono boost was buffed (60-65%) but you only start with 25 energy.
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@Matrix
BW values might make spamming both medics and marauders less of a problem?
Early game matrix on a firebat mode marauder is just kind of stupid.
Upgrade or something.
@PF
The main problem is that it is a get out of jail free card.
No thought whatsoever. You could trigger it with a single unit, but then your opponent now knows he needs to defend it. Zero surprise of harass is available unless you must dark swarm or hit with air units.
I would have zero problems removing it.
@Reaper
I'd rather see a slightly faster reaper, something in between.
Lings without creep bonus make battles just that much more micro based when it comes down to things like holding off marine bunker pressure, or 2 gate.
@Nerve Jammer/Safegaurd
Effect everyone!!! Spells always effect everyone. If you want it to make sense lore wise, make it so nerve jammer doesn't effect mechanical or something like that.
@Stalker
Looks good
@Hider Vulture
I buffed the acelleration of the vulture just a tad to better match BW vulture. I think that is why they were under performing.
@Reaver/Storm
Reaver has an exploding drone.
Storm is a psionic storm.
Storm logically seems like it should be better vs light.
Scarabs seem more like they'd be able to bust armored targets.
Honestly I think they are functionally different enough but no big.
Storm is a spell with a limited energy pool. Reaver is Toss's siege tank.
@Dark Swarm
Shorter casting range, no prob
@Lifting sieged tanks
Agreed with Hider. It is too cool not to have in some form or another just like warp in.
Tech lab upgrade on Starport and name it emergency grapples.
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Matrix. Right now Medics start with it. When that got implemented, a long time ago, Marines were the only core bio unit. That is not the case anymore. The spell is arguably broken in the early game in combination with Marauders. I still prefer the spell to stay in the game for two reasons:
1) It helps to give an advantage to a Terran player who goes Bio + Tanks + Air units, compared to Terran who goes only pure mech.
2) If I remove it, the Medic has no other spell at all. Which just feels lame. And thus another spell must be invented or recreated from BW.
My suggestion is to just let it have an upgrade at the tech lab. Costs 100/100 BT 110 or 140 seconds.
Then we can tweak stats if needed.
Sounds fine. It is rather powerful. Just be careful with having too many high research time upgrades on the techlab.
Planetary fortress. I generally do not like to remove or add stuff at this point. But PF does arguably have a bad impact on the gameplay.
It makes smaller harassment and attacks very hard. Two solutions:
1) Reduce the duration and cooldown of the activation. Maybe 15 seconds duration, 60 seconds cooldown, instead of 30 seconds duration and two minutes cooldown. Becomes more crucial to use it at the right time. Easier to harass PF now?
2) Remove it.
I don't know if you read my post on this. But ill gladly repeat myself. Unless your plan is to wreck terran completely there is no option to remove it. Infact I don't even think we can apply raw nerfs anymore. The options are rework it or replace it. It can't be removed without something to take its place, terran will be torn apart by the harass. Zerg and protoss both have static ground defenses while protoss also have warp-in(delayed granted) while Zerg have queens and much faster production for added anti-harass.
The dilemma: No Zerg units have speed bonus on creep. Which means that the normal fast Reaper becomes very strong vs Zerg. Thus the current Reaper is quite slow. And useless.
Reaper. Potential solutions:
1) Give it speed ca 3.25. (Zerglings have speed 2.83, Stalker 2.65) Not insanely fast Reapers at least.
2) Just let Zerglings benefit from speed bonus on Creep.
Said it before, and I will say it again. The reaper is too weak to be a 2 supply unit. The problem for Zerg is two-fold through. You have limited both ways Zerg normally deal with early Reapers in SC2. Zerglings on creep, or extra queens. With much slower Zerglings and limited queens, it is not really surprising that reaper can cause some early trouble. The problem is they can't do anything beyond that.
Reavers, Storm and Archons deal the same amount of damage to everything. Just as in BW. But since the tech tree is different in Starbow, I think there needs to be some variation here, so we encourage different units for different situations.
Suggestion:
- Archon dmg changed FROM 30 vs all, TO 20 vs armored, 25 vs medium, 30 vs light.
- Psi storm dmg changed FROM 112 dmg over 6 seconds, TO ca 60-75 vs light, 90 vs medium, 120 vs armored over 6 sec
- Reaver dmg changed FROM 100 vs all, to 60 vs armored, 80 vs light, 100 vs medium
- Immortal dmg remains strong vs armored targets.
The values are just a suggestion. The point is to make the units/spells in the same tech tree not overlap, and not be super strong vs everything.
I think Storm at least, should stay as uniform damage. It could be lower, but I think it is one of those abilities that should be countered by micro rather than build order.
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I buffed the acelleration of the vulture just a tad to better match BW vulture. I think that is why they were under performing.
Hmm yeh. But looking at a few BW mech opening VOD's. Terran didn't really pressure that much early game. At least, I believe HOTS early game TvZ seemed much more awesome with zerg trying to secure a 3rd (before mutas were out) and terrans using hellions (and reapers) against the zergs queens + speedlings. This is IMO quite a fun micro battle, that I believe we should try to replicate in Sbow.
So I wouldn't mind slow-vultures being stronger than in BW against speedlings - as long as the game can remain balanced.
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On September 04 2013 20:29 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I buffed the acelleration of the vulture just a tad to better match BW vulture. I think that is why they were under performing. Hmm yeh. But looking at a few BW mech opening VOD's, I believe stronger slow-vultures (than in BW) is quite beneficial for the gameplay (as long as the game can remain balanced). But again, I believe this is mostly a unit-tester issue assuming we agree on the idea of giving mech early game aggressive opportunities.
It was quite exciting to see Vultures slip into minerals lines in a 2 base vs 2 base game. Saw it a couple times. If you manage to get into the mineral line it seems like they are almost always worth it being so cheap and 2 shotting workers.
Lots of fun.
Slightly stronger vs stalker vultures might need to only 3 shot workers however.
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On September 04 2013 20:34 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 20:29 Hider wrote:I buffed the acelleration of the vulture just a tad to better match BW vulture. I think that is why they were under performing. Hmm yeh. But looking at a few BW mech opening VOD's, I believe stronger slow-vultures (than in BW) is quite beneficial for the gameplay (as long as the game can remain balanced). But again, I believe this is mostly a unit-tester issue assuming we agree on the idea of giving mech early game aggressive opportunities. It was quite exciting to see Vultures slip into minerals lines in a 2 base vs 2 base game. Saw it a couple times. If you manage to get into the mineral line it seems like they are almost always worth it being so cheap and 2 shotting workers. Lots of fun. Slightly stronger vs stalker vultures might need to only 3 shot workers however.
Yeh, you did see a few vultures here and there for a brief period, but mostly it just felt like it was over too quickly (in the VOD's I watched). I like that the early game action lasts for at least a couple of minutes, and that it also consists of army units vs army units interactions rather than just vultures target firing workers.
IMO the the HOTS TvZ feels better in terms of the micro interactions + the duration of the early game than Sbow/BW. I believe this is due to the fact that hellions forces speedlings + queens out + zerg needs a 3 base econ to make Mutalisks usefull.
Sbow TvP mech feels so awesome at the moment due to the fact that terran can be out in on the map in the early game + he has strong harass actions in the mid- and lategame. In TvZ though mech feels much more defenisve in the early and midgame, which I believe leads to more stale games.
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Remeber the trouble zerg had with vultures not too long ago? Let's not revert them all the way back to that. (They pretty much killed both lings and hydras very well).
90 hp might be fine, and dec also said that they are bettr now as well, also they are much better now IF microed correctly. I think they have great potential to do dmg vs zerg early game / force a lot of defences.
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On September 04 2013 20:58 Xiphias wrote:
Remeber the trouble zerg had with vultures not too long ago? Let's not revert them all the way back to that. (They pretty much killed both lings and hydras very well).
90 hp might be fine, and dec also said that they are bettr now as well, also they are much better now IF microed correctly. I think they have great potential to do dmg vs zerg early game / force a lot of defences.
I think it was just a problem of adapting. BW zergs needs to learn a slightly new build order and then react to it.
Scouting reactor rax + factory is quite easily (overlord) and then you have three choices;
1) Get up spines, wall off --> tech to lair on 2 bases. Kinda inefficient as you let terran take the map.
2) Get speed out asap and take a 3rd on speedlings + queens. This is a micro battle though (similar to sc2).
3) Get hydras and put pressure on the terran player. This is mostly ideal if you scout a second factory follow up. Vs a bio follow up you will prefer option 2.
If you reevalute your own game yesterday vs Alpha you did neither. You stayed on slowling tech for a long time after scouting the reactor addon, thus you lost a couple of drones too many.
Anyway, I want to try this in a unit tester and see how it fares vs speedlings now.
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I did try to get up spines, wall off and "hide" a third. But this was more general talk. I just want to make sure we do not go in circles:
Vulture too strong vs zerg -> nerf vulture
Vulture too weak vs toss -> buff vulture etc.
It will probably be fine, it was just a word of caution.
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That is why we should be deliberate on what nerfs or buffs we give units. The Vulture can struggle against Protoss for one reason, and be strong versus Zerg for a completely different reason. If we identify the why, its easy to determine the how.
I really should write part 2 of my analysis on unit attributes, as that is to elaborate on this subject.
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Just discovered there is a problem with the maurauder vs protoss. Right now it actually soft counters immortals, even without medi healing and matrix (and ofc it rapes both slowzealots and stalkers).
Im not sure how to fix this problem in a good way though, but as a temporary solution its damage vs armored probably needs to be reduced a bit.
Otherwise, every terran can just mass maurauders and 1ta against basically everything else in the midgame.
Alternatively, the immortal needs to a more specialized unit with higer damage vs armored, but lower vs normal.
Maybe we should try a combined approach:
Immortal
Damage vs armored = 14 *2 (from 13*2)
Damage vs medium = 9 * 2 (from 10*2)
Maurauder
Damage vs armored = 14 (from 16)
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ok I played 3 games vs hide today. Matrix is totally broken! it needs to be fixed! / not removed. I like the spell. Make it an upgrade, that should do it.
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Fixed the high ground bug. Replaced a few triggers with data of my own. High ground activaton will be short lived so no more units "waiting" to miss.
Couldn't recreate the observer bug or whatever was going on. Tried messing with goliaths and phase shield.
A goliath takes 9 shots to kill an observer by itself (only 5 vs light, obs has 40/40 and constant health regen).
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I just got home. December sent me a file now. I publish it right away since some of you are playing atm. I have not added any of the potential stats changes. Only bug fixes by Dec
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And. Change the reaper to 1 supply? Any problem with this?
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On September 04 2013 23:55 decemberscalm wrote:
Fixed the high ground bug. Replaced a few triggers with data of my own. High ground activaton will be short lived so no more units "waiting" to miss.
Couldn't recreate the observer bug or whatever was going on. Tried messing with goliaths and phase shield.
A goliath takes 9 shots to kill an observer by itself (only 5 vs light, obs has 40/40 and constant health regen).
Wasn't there also a bug with tanks not dealing friendly fire?
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On September 05 2013 00:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 23:55 decemberscalm wrote:
Fixed the high ground bug. Replaced a few triggers with data of my own. High ground activaton will be short lived so no more units "waiting" to miss.
Couldn't recreate the observer bug or whatever was going on. Tried messing with goliaths and phase shield.
A goliath takes 9 shots to kill an observer by itself (only 5 vs light, obs has 40/40 and constant health regen). Wasn't there also a bug with tanks not dealing friendly fire?
Fixed already.
Forgot to put it in the "change log".
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On September 05 2013 00:53 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 00:50 Hider wrote:On September 04 2013 23:55 decemberscalm wrote:
Fixed the high ground bug. Replaced a few triggers with data of my own. High ground activaton will be short lived so no more units "waiting" to miss.
Couldn't recreate the observer bug or whatever was going on. Tried messing with goliaths and phase shield.
A goliath takes 9 shots to kill an observer by itself (only 5 vs light, obs has 40/40 and constant health regen). Wasn't there also a bug with tanks not dealing friendly fire? Fixed already. Forgot to put it in the "change log".
Good job. 
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EPT
