EPTTvAir, goliath are the dmg dealers vs armoured targets e.g. guardians, not vikings. even if irradiae is nerfed imo.
[A] Starbow - Page 392
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
TvAir, goliath are the dmg dealers vs armoured targets e.g. guardians, not vikings. even if irradiae is nerfed imo. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
On September 06 2013 19:44 Xiphias wrote: Would it be too good if the stalker range and the immortal range was the same upgarde? Marines and mauraders are. (And it would be on the cc, not the robo bay). TvAir, goliath are the dmg dealers vs armoured targets e.g. guardians, not vikings. even if irradiae is nerfed imo. Hmm that's maybe a good idea. Not sure how exactly it should be implemented. Would probably require an increase in cost. At the moment upgrading stalker range ASAP already feels like such an extremely rewarding upgrade regardless of what terarn does. It would probably have to cost 200/200 if it benefited both stalkers and immortals. Regarding Guardians, my theory is that Guardians should have a slight range advantage over Goliats, which makes Goliaths a relatively weak counter to Guardians. But the point isn't that Goliaths shuold suck vs Guardians. Rather that you should need a mix of vikings and goliaths, rather than just SV's and Goliaths all game long. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Stalker should be more fragile but with blink that recharge shield. Great to take advantage of the micro. What you think? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
On September 06 2013 20:25 JohnnyZerg wrote: I think that gateway should build immortal with cybernetic core, with values similar to dragon. Stalker should be build on gateway but should require robotic bay. An only one range upgrade for immortal / stalker would be interesting. Stalker should be more anti air / support that backbone of the army. Stalker should be more fragile but with blink that recharge shield. Great to take advantage of the micro. What you think? Its possible that we can't balance immortal out of robo. While it seems to work fine in TvP, it does handicap protoss slightly in PvZ with the current balance. But I think we should give it a real shot and focus on balancing the game around it by tweaking various stats, and then we can reevaluate after a short while. The main reason I prefer the Immortal at robo and Sentinel at SG approach over the Sentinel at Robo, Immortal at gateway is that it gives differnet kind of harass options for each tech tree; - You open Robo --> Warp prism harass - You open Stargate --> Air harass This means that scouting + reacting is rewarded as these two forms of harassing requires slightly different responses. If air units can be produced out of both SG and Robo, then I believe the tech patterns will feel slightly more similar in terms of the effect it has on openings. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
>>>+ Show Spoiler + I do prefer the Stalker/Immortal over the Dragoon, simply because IF we can get those two units balanced, they will lead to more variations and a more interesting meta game than in BW. In all match-ups. The biggest concern I have with this is Lurker tech switches. As soon as Zerg pops +5 Lurkers in the mid game, and then opts for a heavy Lurker style, the Gateways become basically useless. No unit from them can deal with Lurkers to the same degree Goons could. It is a hard catch-up for Protoss to do, and requires a large tech switch. One Robotic facility is really not enough to keep up with Immortal production vs mass Lurkers. And going pre-emptive Immortals, in case of Lurkers. is risky, just because Immortals are bad vs almost all other Zerg units. (No effect vs Mutas, crap vs Lings, mediocre vs Hydras) We can ofc just make Templar Tech more available faster, so Archons and HT becomces more crucial and easier accesible. But then we kinda are back in BW-meta, where P has to get early AoE. With the addition of the Stalker, who is good vs medium & light, and Sentinels with Null ward, we try to create a more stable mid game where Protoss can be more efficient with earlier tech units vs Zerg. Or we can make Immortals gain a faster range upgrade, as Hider suggests. That is my biggest concern with Stalker at Gateway and Immortal at Robotic facility. Thoughts on this? Is Immortal at Robotic facility a hopeless situation that requires a rearrangement where the Immortal/Stalker/Sentinels are built? @Guardians in TvZ >>>+ Show Spoiler + I do prefer Guardians over Broodlords due to the latter messes with units AI so much. (Never been a fan of them.) But the Guardian was arguably weak in BW and is also so in Starbow. If we want to diverse ourself from BW, and encourage more different Terran units in the late game, maybe can we do something like this: Guardians can need a stats buff in dmg and maybe life so they become a better late game option. And those two important adjustements: - Guardians gain longer attack range than Goliaths - Armor class changed from Armored to Medium Atm, these are the dmg stats for Goliaths and Vikings: - Goliath strong vs armored targets (10x2 vs armored, 7.5x2 vs medium, 5x2 vs light) - Vikings with their splash dmg deals 2x8 vs everything. (Can upgrade +2 range. Might be an obsolete upgrade) This would make Vikings a better option vs them, due to Goliaths dealing lower dmg vs medium armor. Maybe can Irradiate be adjusted to not kill heavy HP units as efficiently, to further encourage Viking play. (Maybe Guardians & Devourer & Ultralisks should survive 1 Irradiate.) This does however not mean that Irradiate or Goliaths are worthless vs Guardians. They are just not superior to Vikings. So Vikings would basically be good vs both Mutalisks & Guardians. Still weak vs Devourer and Scourge. (Especially if the Scourge flanks/surrounds to avoid the splash) Then we need to look at how we want Protoss air vs Zerg air to be. Corsair strong vs both Mutalisks & Guardians? Scouts to deal with Vipers & Devourers? @Suggestions I have received >>>+ Show Spoiler + At this point in Starbow, I only intend to do as small modifications as possible. The only major concern I have is Immortal/Stalker and how to get that to fit. We discussed some minor tweaks that could be made yesterday, for example slightly faster slow-Vultures mainly vs Z, slightly more beefy Marauders to make them more useful early in TvP etc. We also need to take a second look at Larva Inject compared to Chrono boost & Reactor, just because all units and structures build times are now much closer to BW. I am off to work soon and will be back in ca 12 hours. So I will not upload anything today. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On September 06 2013 05:45 decemberscalm wrote: With latency in mind generally core units at have lower damage point (how long it takes for the unit to start its attack and actually hit) but the amount of time they are unable to move right after attacking has been made slightly longer instead. I could make it more true to BW, but it might make players playing across NA->EU or EU->NA have a rougher time than should be trying to compensate for when each attack hits. I feel like this latency issue has the most effect when issuing your first attack command and is not felt much after that in a continuously raging battle. Experienced players generally have stutter step timings engrained into their bone after that first attack and half-ignore any irresponsiveness by just going on instinct. I mean it's possible playing from US West that you have lots more trouble on EU than I might be able to imagine. But personally I never felt the latency from EU to US was too large for that kind of micro to be effective. It does have an effect for sure. I think for example microing back zealots from zerglings in small skirmishes in a higher latency setting will make you less responsive (in choosing the proper direction to run) and more prone to get surrounded. But the general act of moving back the zealot and predicting the next attack perfectly when it's off cooldown I think is just something that's engrained into experienced players. It's not even that you'd be making it more true to BW. Even SC2 is more responsive and has more possibility for attack-move kiting than Starbow right now. TL;DR IMO better to balance for skill than for latency. Why else would you have things like vulture moving shot in the mod. That is also clearly subject to latency ---> lower damage point, but has no penalty on moving right after attack. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
With the addition of the Stalker, who is good vs medium & light, and Sentinels with Null ward, we try to create a more stable mid game where Protoss can be more efficient with earlier tech units vs Zerg. Or we can make Immortals gain a faster range upgrade, as Hider suggests. I think we should do both tbh. There are two overall issues in PvZ balancewise; 1) Immortal + stalker being worse in the midgame vs hydra + lurker than Dragoons due to A) Range upgrade is tier 3 tech for Immortals and B) It comes out of more expensive tech --> Solution here is to make range upgrade more accessible and buff Immortal damage slightly vs armored units. 2) Zerg is currently benefiting from the Larva buff the Queen provides in the early game --> Protoss should have stronger harasstools than in BW --> Buff Sentinels vs Zerg + the current strenght of blink stalker should also be enough to make it possible for protoss tier 2 to pressure zerg. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
i dont think it will cut in pvt or pvz. Pvt with robo/gateway means way to hard to keep up with macro from terran. I feel it is gimmick things right now in pvt. Banshee beat stalker, and forces either stalkers or scouts. Scout almost beat goliath, both scout and sentinel makes terran build goliaths from factory which means less vults/tanks. PvZ is another story, against lurkers you need stalkers, they also help to aid vs hydralisks and mutaplay. Without corsairs they also help to defend your observers and hightemplars from getting nuked down @pvz beta bw How to change this? The most common and almost only build (might be wrong, not 100% updated late bw) FFE>stargate>corsair Would be a nice change if we could fix this. So sentinel from stargate, why not just build corsairs instead? How to change the sentinel? Anyway to let sentinel help with both mutaplay and hydraplay? So protoss do not have to go storm, or worry to much about mutaplay, something in between? Just some questions here, worth to give a thought. Sentinel might get moved to robotic later so keep that in mind. Though, the archon is buffed slightly and mutas cant micro as they did in broodwar. In broodwar, archon didnt really cut it against mutas. Maybe protoss do not have to go stargate. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
So sentinel from stargate, why not just build corsairs instead? Here are my suggestions 1) Lower BT (it takes way too long to get them atm) 2) Higher damage vs medium armor --> Better vs hydralisks. 3) Queen AA nerf --> 2 sentinels should beat a Queen comfortably. Zerg has map control and great acces to scouting with overlords. They really don't need a strong blind-counter in the Queen. If it is too strong vs terran, then we can consider to make Goliaths produceable out of nontechlab factories (and without armory requirement as well). @ Improving Immortal vs Lurker balance I think a concern here is that protoss needs both observers and immortals vs lurkers. Typically that requires at least 2-3 Robo facilities in the midgame which protoss can't afford to throw down preemptively. So if zerg opens like mutalisks into Lurker heavy play then it can be quite costly to deal with as protoss as you likely won't have 3 robo facilities to deal with the tech switch. I previously suggested this idea, and I still think we implement it; Give Sentinel the Oracle's detection ability. This way you don't need 3-4 observers vs hydra + lurker play and you are not overlyy punished if you happen to lose your observers during a battle. Instead, you can now temporarily skip observers and instead constantly chrono Immortals out of 1 robo to deal with a tech switch to Lurkers. I feel it is gimmick things right now in pvt Gimmicks are thing that rely on luck/coincidences. Really what you are talking about here is just balancing the game in a different and IMO more interesting way than in BW. You will see a lot more options in Sbow and scouting and reaction is much more rewarded. In BW it was just dragoon all the way. In Sbow you now have to carefully balance your stalker to immortal ratio based on what your opponent is doing. IMO this makes the game a lot more fun. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Banshee beat stalker This can be adjusted via stats. against lurkers you need stalkers Stalkers are nowhere near as good vs Lurkers as Dragoons were. Stalkers seems to melt very easy. @Dragoon The problems I have with the Dragoon are: - PvP becomes more predictable and lame. - PvT Dragoon is the "ultimate" unit - it can defend vs Reaper, Vulture, Dropship, Banshee harass. It is good vs all units Terran have, except maybe stimmed Marine balls. Is there anything Terran can do to punish Protoss who masses Dragoons? Is there any reason for P to NOT go pure Dragoons in early/mid game? Mix in Zealots when trying to engage Tank lines. Mass Dragoons + Zealots was however exciting in BW. But there they required a lot of attention due to bad AI, and with limited unit selection it took a lot of effort to manage large Dragoon armies. In the SC2 engine Dragoons have smart AI and all can be selected at once. One unit vs everything? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Yes giving a detection ability to the Sentinel might help a bit since it frees up Immortal production at the robo. Maybe we can also make Lurkers not hard counter Stalkers so brutal as they currently do. Instead of 22 dmg vs all, mabe 15 vs armored, 22 vs medium & light. Still strong vs Stalkers. Just not as insane. If needed, the Lurker den can have an upgrade that increases dmg vs armored targets. (Maybe up to 22) This can give more time for Protoss to transistion into Immortals, since it takes longer time for Z to get "full effect" from their Lurkers. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
IF Lurkers remain at medium armor in Starbow, Immortals become bad vs them. So if Lurkers stay at 125 life AND are armored, tanks 2-shot them. (Which seems quite brutal) That is why I have left them at 140 life and armored for a long time now. Tanks barely 3-shot them. (Maybe it is ofc not perfect) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
On September 06 2013 21:52 Kabel wrote: @Immortal vs Lurker Yes giving a detection ability to the Sentinel might help a bit since it frees up Immortal production at the robo. Maybe we can also make Lurkers not hard counter Stalkers so brutal as they currently do. Instead of 22 dmg vs all, mabe 15 vs armored, 22 vs medium & light. Still strong vs Stalkers. Just not as insane. If needed, the Lurker den can have an upgrade that increases dmg vs armored targets. (Maybe up to 22) This can give more time for Protoss to transistion into Immortals, since it takes longer time for Z to get "full effect" from their Lurkers. Yeh possibly. Though I fear that this may just make mass blink stalkers a superior build in the early midgame. Little reward for teching to air or doing warp prism drops in this phase of the game if mass blink stalkers doesn't really have any clear weakness pre 12 minute mark or so. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
They do 20base in bw, not 22 as in sbow. Any reason for this? I didnt realise they are armored in bow, hmm. Really what you are talking about here is just balancing the game in a different and IMO more interesting way than in BW Yeah, but i dont wanna struggle for months @sentinel Safeguard right now is a lategame spell that comes early, imo. Possibility to redesign the ability to help aid for toss in midgame? Hm reason iam thinking of redesign is if the spell is to powerful versus terran, and doesnt really help against zerg at the same time. Except against lurkers mainly @dragoon One unit vs everything? Well yes. He is good against everything, until tanks get higher he needs zealot badly, i dont know the exact number but 10+ tanks i guess. Maybe even lower. Terran can be agressive. They can sustain. Even if protoss realies very heavy on the dragoon, the player still needs to micro/send enough units to defend/target fire, while with zealots u drag mines, do warpprisk drop. Dragoon clear mines. Against heavy factory agressive terrrans, you will see vultures everywhere combined with drops/tank pushes. The diffrence now is not very much. You make stalkers because you need to, not because you want to. The unit composition you want is immortal/Zealot. Against air you want scout more than stalker. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
There are obviously creative ways we can solve this issue if small tweaks can't do it. For instance we have now reduced Sentinel HP and reduced safeguard range by 1. Let's see how that works out/feels. Also we can consider to make goliath produceable by reactors, this means that in previous situations where you just had 3-4 goliaths, you may now have 5-6 goliaths which makes it easier to kill them. And ofc we can also further reduce Safeguard casting range. Anyway, in terms of creative suggestion (if above doesn't really work out properly), we can consider this; - Activating Safeguard removes all shield of the Sentinel, with an upgrade at Fleet Bacon which removes the shield draining. Thus, Safeguard becomes a lot weaker in midgame , but is still usefull in the lategame once you have researched the upgrade. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Sentinels is quite tough. Later in the game you have EMP and higher Goliath count, thus target firing it becomes easier Thats the problem for me, emp dont help while he have casted it. And the goliaths stands just outside the safeguardspell which means lots of stalkers/immortals/dragoons there. I dont think terran can block this in an effective way. Same with the ghost, the range is just there for stalkers/immortals/dragoon to shoot at. If there is a "counter" to safegaurd i think the ghost is best at it @Your suggestions might help tho, might not be a problem @larva i believe actually the larva spawning should be the same BT as workers. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
On September 06 2013 22:32 Foxxan wrote: Thats the problem for me, emp dont help while he have casted it. And the goliaths stands just outside the safeguardspell which means lots of stalkers/immortals/dragoons there. I dont think terran can block this in an effective way. Same with the ghost, the range is just there for stalkers/immortals/dragoon to shoot at. If there is a "counter" to safegaurd i think the ghost is best at it @Your suggestions might help tho, might not be a problem Regarding EMP, I have found it surprisingly easy a couple of times to get one of before SG usage. Might of course be due to mistakes by my opponent, but wihtout Scout, protoss can't actually kill the SV very easily unless they have a really high Stalker count. So you can actually (before a battle takes place) kinda go in fron with your SV and try to hit the Sentinels. | ||
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