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On September 02 2013 08:19 Kabel wrote:Whats going on with Starbow?Lets look at macro mechanics:Z has to pay for the Queen. T has to pay for the Orbital. P gets Chrono boost for free. This causes imbalances in the macro of the races, especially now when we go for so much BW balance. Chrono seems to affect the early game a lot. The following idea is probably the most easiest one to even it out: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ORmsKvg.jpg) December is now working on the file, and he has some stuff to fix. I will try to implement this tomorrow, unless anyone has a better idea!
Did anyone look at the numbers I did? (It was this post btw: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=383#7651 )
Chrono is not imba! At least not compared to terran (I did not do a vs zerg comparison). In fact, after 5-6 min into the game I feel calldown SCV is imba. I see no reason to mess with chrono. We want asymmetrical relations. I thought it was great how protoss got the first eco boost (making them scary to paly vs in early game) and then terran got the eco-boost (making them scary in the mid game.) This creates an interesting game-play dynamic. If 2 gate zealot pushes are too hard then nerf zealot build time instead.
You have to boost chrono a TON to make this solution at pair with call-down SCV.
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I'd rather have sort of even macro mechanics though O.O
Edit: Been going at it for hours. FINNNNNALLY got BW shield mechanics working.
As far as I can tell they are perfectly spot on.
Might be some oddities with armor maybe. Still working x.x.
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Chrono is not imba! At least not compared to terran (I did not do a vs zerg comparison). In fact, after 5-6 min into the game I feel calldown SCV is imba. I see no reason to mess with chrono. We want asymmetrical relations. I thought it was great how protoss got the first eco boost (making them scary to paly vs in early game) and then terran got the eco-boost (making them scary in the mid game.) This creates an interesting game-play dynamic. If 2 gate zealot pushes are too hard then nerf zealot build time instead.
While it is nice to know the exact benefit scv calldown give relative to chrono boost under certain assumptions - remember that your numbers had assumptions that never would work in practice.
If you get OC asap then this happens;
You delay factory tech quite significantly --> Stalkers gets too shot at bunkers forever --> extra cost for terran which means they can't afford to invest into harassoriented options or get enough core units out --> toss takes a free 3rd --> toss can harass efficiently --> snowballs.
Thus, getting a fast OC really is not efficient. Further, also remember that terran has to use scans (if they opt for a relatively quick OC) giving the the potential air threat as getting blind goliaths is quite expensive.
In a previous post I also posted why balancing an asysmetrical game was going to be real tough (protoss imba early game, teran imba in midgame). First of all it simply requires that we nerf all stargate units and for instance remove/make graviton beam an upgrade. Otherwise protoss can simply afford to waste ressources on stargate units which prevents the strenght of banshees and droptech while still having a stronger core army.
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@Dec. Nice job!
@ HIdeR
I see your arguments there HideR, and you are probably right in many instances. Also remember, however, that as terran will always use some energy for scan (and sometimes for supply call-down) protoss will rarely chrono workers for 15 minutes like I did there as well. If they are opting for fast stalkers with range to add pressure, then they are also, sacrificing early economy by chrono out the range upgrade. It might be more balanced if OC cost 75 minerals or so, but I still think we should keep chrono from the start for protoss.
Alos: This: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427562
Kabel, let's get pathfinder into the map-pool 
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Alright, I gotta get some sleep.
I modified shields of all protoss units and buildings to what I calculated should be BW regen rate converted to SC2.
Ling and Zealot dps are actually REALLY close to BW value. Tested side by side comparisons so I don't wanna hear anymore imba talk ^^. (keep in mind this is after the global 10% nerf so you can get a feel on how much slower BW after plays than sc2).
Lurker HP, range, and unit type-> BW values.
Gol hp-> BW values.
Tank siege time reverted to sc2 times, didn't have time to test these values.
Archon range->BW value (1.5 to 2).
Big thing. Spent hours upon hours finding, and experimenting for a shield solution.
I think I made a 1:1 replica of BW shield full damage. It even accounts for armor.
For instance, danko pointed out that if a hydra shoots a zealot with no shields it deals 4.5 (looks like 4 or 5) damage because of armor.
Hydralisk deals 10 damage, - 1 armor is 9. Then you account for unit type which halves the damage down to 4.5.
We now have exact hydra dps stats against zealots.
Full damage to shield for immo vulture tank mine and hydra.
BED TIME!
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On September 02 2013 16:11 Xiphias wrote:@Dec. Nice job! @ HIdeR I see your arguments there HideR, and you are probably right in many instances. Also remember, however, that as terran will always use some energy for scan (and sometimes for supply call-down) protoss will rarely chrono workers for 15 minutes like I did there as well. If they are opting for fast stalkers with range to add pressure, then they are also, sacrificing early economy by chrono out the range upgrade. It might be more balanced if OC cost 75 minerals or so, but I still think we should keep chrono from the start for protoss. Alos: This: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427562Kabel, let's get pathfinder into the map-pool
Your right about that, however the question is whether the current build times of units and upgrades are higher than it is in BW (to take into account the chrono boost effect). If it isn't, then protoss still gets a free advantage, where they instead of an econ lead will get faster upgrades/tech.
Anyway, I believe this upgrade-thing is something that needs to happen to get a fundamanetally sound early game. Then after some playtesting we can always adjust variables such as;
- Duration of chrono boost (is 12 seconds to little now?)
- Upgrade time of Nexus. OC is 35 seconds. I suggested that we start with 20 seconds for now on the nexus.
- The cost of the Nexus upgrade (75 minerals is my suggested for both that and OC).
Full damage to shield for immo vulture tank mine and hydra.
Gj. Some adjustments needs to be made though so we don't create a house-of-cards. For instance if vultures can now take out cannons (as in BW) and if protoss early game is nerfed, then dropship pickup IMO needs to be an upgrade at tech-lab.
Further we need to keep an eye out on the banshee. Stalkers should have a bit easier time dealing with it IMO.
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Chrono boost duration atm is 15 seconds. It is heavily nerfed from the SC2 version which has a 20 sec duration (then again, queens and call-down are nerfed too...)
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Btw if tanks now deal full damage to zealots shiwld and if vultures are buffed vs stalkers and immortals, shouldn't we also consider to nerf tanks damage a bit? Tanks are smarter than in BW, which means that they are slightly stronger with equal stats, so a small nerf might be in place. What about 5 less damage vs everything?
Further, since tanks honestly will kinda imbalanced in TvZ (without DS), then I believe a little tank nerf (along with a DS nerf) would be good for the matchup.
@ Irradiate vs Guardian/Mutalisks
So problem with Irradiate is that it counters both Guardians and mutalisks which IMO kinda makes Guardians obosolete vs terrans as they doesn't really accomplish anything mutalisks doesn't.
For instance if we look at Sc2, you want thors vs mutalisks. But if your too heavy on thors, the zerg player can transition into Broodlords where you need Vikings.
So I thought of an adjustment we can make to make the current dynamic more interesting;
Instead of Devourers draining energy with their attack, we give them an ability to make a friendly unit immune to spells such as irradiate, shock etc for a certain period.
This ability is likely much more stronger on more expensive units such as Ultralisks and Guardians rather than cheaper more massable units as the mutalisk. Thus, if you have for instance 15-20 mutalisks and you see the opponent has 5+ SV's, then your highly rewarded for transitioning roughly half of the mutalisks into guardians and the other half into Devourers. At least for a certain period, you will be able to do alot of damage if the opponent has no other real anti-air out than the SV's.
But since it only lasts for a certain period, the terran can evenutally push you back, thus the Guardian + Devourer transition won't be a game-ending blow. Rather it will be something that can provide zerg a small advantage which they otherwise wouldn't be able to accomplish.
@Ultralisks vs tanks
Tested 12 tanks (1800/1200) vs 8 ultras (1600/1600) no upgrades in a completely open field.
Result: Tanks won with 7 tanks leftover!
Obviously that is a balance issue as ultras kinda are supposed to soft-counter tanks. If Dark Swarm shouldn't be an absolutele neccesity then ultras at least needs to trade evenly in this type of situation.
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Its not that if you pit those amount of ultra's against equal cost of tanks the ultra's should win no matter what.. That would be kind of silly..
You use zerglings as well to actually deal the damage, or perhaps even hydra's. Ultra's in broodwar were also more damage sponges than actual dealers. They are enablers, they provide the means for other damage to go through.
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On September 02 2013 18:31 Weerwolf wrote:
Its not that if you pit those amount of ultra's against equal cost of tanks the ultra's should win no matter what.. That would be kind of silly..
You use zerglings as well to actually deal the damage, or perhaps even hydra's. Ultra's in broodwar were also more damage sponges than actual dealers.
And you also use vultures to deal wtih zerglings.
And the thing is; Ultras don't tank very well. They die so fast its not even funny vs tanks. If they really tanked well then they would be able to get into meele range very well and just own the tanks. However, they don't.
Remember that ultras were faster in BW.
EDIT:
Just to be sure, I tested tested ultra + spedling vs vulture + ultra scenario with vultures in front of tanks and ultras slightly in front of lings. But besides that, absolutely zero micro and zero mines. Not surprisingly, this scenario just benefitted the terran player even more.
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@Chrono boost
+ Show Spoiler +it's not just that, it's that protoss has chono from the very start of the game, whereas the other two have to wait a few minutes to get access to theirs. That's part of the reason why Zerg has such a hard time holding off 2gate pressure. Instead of making P's macro mechanic cost money, can't we just delay it? Say, make chrono boost require Cybernetics Core (just to use it. no upgrade needed). That way all of the race's macro mechanics kick in at about the same time.
This is another potential solution yes. But some kind of delay, either individual upgrade or require some building, to make it come slightly later in the game seems to be necessary. (So we even it out between the races.)
@Cannons
+ Show Spoiler +We nerfed them because they shut down harassment too bad. Are hydra timings too hard on toss atm? I have not seen that (but I have not played as much as some of you lately).
I actually still feel that they should have more dmg and less hp (like BW) but perhaps slightly less dmg than BW and slightly more when chronoed. (This way vultures can actually fight them if you have many vultures and not too many canons, E.g. like 8-10 vultures vs 2 canons.)
This is how I want to canon:
1. Good defense vs things like hydra bust, especially when chronoboosted.
2. Good defense vs light harass if you have few canons (2-3)
3. Good defense vs heavy harass if you cover your base in them (but then you have invested a LOT into defense, so ofc you should be safe!)
Not sure if my own solution will do this, but no matter the solution, as long as the following three above can be met. It should be fine being a little less useless when not chrono'ed, and a little not imba when chrono'ed.
Yeah, something like this.
@Lurker armor type
Lurker HP, range, and unit type-> BW values.
Here we have a situation where we arguably can not use the BW solution. I assume you mean "unit type" as in NOT armored any more? It surely works fine vs Dragoons. But since we currently use Stalker & Immortal, medium armored Lurkers are now easier killed by Stalkers, and not by Immortals! (And I assume we want it to be the other way around, to make Blink Stalkers unable to kill area control units like Tanks & Lurkers that easily)
@Guardian/Muta
@ Irradiate vs Guardian/Mutalisks
Maybe we can play around with armor classes and damage values?
Vikings will surely get fine tuned when we look at it: Good vs what kind of targets etc?
Maybe we can get so Goliaths are good vs armored Guardians, while Vikings are good vs medium/light units like Mutalisks. Or vice versa. Or make Irradiate have different dmg vs different armor classes. But I will look at this once we advance in our work.
Kabel, let's get pathfinder into the map-pool
I will see what I can do ^^
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its not like vultures suddenly own all the zerglings in no time flat. They are good against zerglings if they have space. If they have to stick next to tanks and not kite zerglings, the zerglings can kill the tanks.
Besides this, if a zerg could just bust through a fortified terran position (tanks and vultures) with just ultras and zerglings all the time, i'm pretty sure terran would be off pretty badly. Terrans whole thing is to be able to entrench positions and make them extremely hard to break. And as you said before, they can still break them, they just need dark swarm, positioning or other extra's.
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Maybe we can play around with armor classes and damage values?
Vikings will surely get fine tuned when we look at it: Good vs what kind of targets etc?
Well irradiate needs to be worse vs guardians first and foremost, and yes, then we can start to tweak armor valuues a bit to make vikings better vs them perhaps.
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On September 02 2013 18:39 Weerwolf wrote:
its not like vultures suddenly own all the zerglings in no time flat. They are good against zerglings if they have space. If they have to stick next to tanks and not kite zerglings, the zerglings can kill the tanks.
Besides this, if a zerg could just bust through a fortified terran position (tanks and vultures) with just ultras and zerglings all the time, i'm pretty sure terran would be off pretty badly. Terrans whole thing is to be able to entrench positions and make them extremely hard to break. And as you said before, they can still break them, they just need dark swarm, positioning or other extra's.
Read my edit. Btw this is an open area with medium scale. With medium scale terran is supposed to set him self up in turtle areas/narrow positions.
Dark Swarm needs to be nerfed btw. That's the entire premise of why ultras needs a buff/tank nerf, because it offers no late game decision for the zerg player at the moment (explained in previous posts).
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On September 02 2013 18:33 Hider wrote:
Just to be sure, I tested tested ultra + spedling vs vulture + ultra scenario with vultures in front of tanks and ultras slightly in front of lings. But besides that, absolutely zero micro and zero mines. Not surprisingly, this scenario just benefitted the terran player even more.
But this scenario you just reinacted, was it just the zerg coming from one side if the zerg is only coming from one side, it hardly manners that there is not choke (since the whole point of the choke is to make things come from one direction). How many zerglings were there?
If the zerg is able to crush the entire terran army with equal amount of cost then they should win almost all battles, since zerg can macro up the units faster. Even in broodwar, if the zerg was not one base ahead, he could forget it.
Since so much statistics from broodwar have been duplicated, this should not be overlooked. imo zerg *should* use more resources then the terran to break a terran position. They *should* have more lings then vultures in terms of minerals. They *should* be spread out and preferably have an engagement from more then 1 side, because they are not terran.
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@Ultralisks vs Tanks
As with everything else, this will be replicated to correspond to BW balance. If it is imbalanced/strange even then, perhaps because of the SC2 engine or something else, well, then we need to make some kind of tweak.
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On September 02 2013 17:38 Hider wrote:
Tested 12 tanks (1800/1200) vs 8 ultras (1600/1600) no upgrades in a completely open field.
Result: Tanks won with 7 tanks leftover!
Obviously that is a balance issue as ultras kinda are supposed to soft-counter tanks. If Dark Swarm shouldn't be an absolutele neccesity then ultras at least needs to trade evenly in this type of situation.
ehm Hider... You did know that Tanks in BW were REALLY good vs Ultralisks?
As in, Tanks actually soft counter Ultras.
This is due to Ultralisks relying on armor rather than HP to be beefy and hard to kill. It makes Ultras really good against low damage, high attack speed units like Marines, but bad against high damage low attack speed units like Tanks.
It was the rule rather than the exeption that a Zerg transitioning to Ultra tech would lose to a meching Terran.
EDIT: I'm not saying that we should have the same relation in StarBow, but when we are replicating BW stats and relationships, we should not be surprised to see the same trends as in BW.
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New tests which shows the ridiclousness of tank + Dark Swarm
Test 1: Double-upgraded hydras + 5 Defilers vs 13 tanks. Roughly equal cost --> With a heavy usage of Dark Swarm, hydras barely win. Micro for the terran player wouldn't have mattered since is tanks can't target fire defilers before they fire out dark swarm.
Test 2: Replacing Defilers with more hydras. Army values are still equal. On the other hand area is completely open. Result --> 1 tank dies.
With new hydra animation, dark swarm acutally becomes even stronger with hydras.
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On September 02 2013 18:53 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 17:38 Hider wrote:
Tested 12 tanks (1800/1200) vs 8 ultras (1600/1600) no upgrades in a completely open field.
Result: Tanks won with 7 tanks leftover!
Obviously that is a balance issue as ultras kinda are supposed to soft-counter tanks. If Dark Swarm shouldn't be an absolutele neccesity then ultras at least needs to trade evenly in this type of situation. ehm Hider... You did know that Tanks in BW were REALLY good vs Ultralisks? As in, Tanks actually soft counter Ultras. This is due to Ultralisks relying on armor rather than HP to be beefy and hard to kill. It makes Ultras really good against low damage, high attack speed units like Marines, but bad against high damage low attack speed units like Tanks. It was the rule rather than the exeption that a Zerg transitioning to Ultra tech would lose to a meching Terran.
In narrow pasasges. No way 7 tanks would survive in an open area vs ultralisks and no Mines.
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EPT
