EPT[A] Starbow - Page 382
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Also, is such inconsistency really necessary? I understand that queen/spines speed bonus is necessary, but zerglings? Come on. I'm pretty sure we can avoid it. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
i just found a good site with movement speed in bw Zealot (upg) moves in 6 movementspeed, and dec converted this to 3.04~ in sc2 to give u a better understanding!: Flying: These all fly on the same speed 6.67 in movementspeed (no idea how to convert to sc2) corsair muta scourge queen(viper) scout (upg) > unupgraded scout 5 > hard to implement right now cuz of banshee (stop dreaming hider) shuttle (upg) (warpprism) valkyrie 6.66 (viking) > without range upg (bw) --------------------------------------------------------------- science vessel: 5 dropship 5.47 battlecruiser 2.5 carrier 3.33 > interceptors 13.33 (omg?) arbiter 5 Observer 3.33 > 5 (upg) overlord 3.33 (upg) devourer 5 guardian 2.5 Ground: workers: 5 vulture 6.67 > 10(upg) dragoon 5.25 (vulture almost twice fast) Ultralisk 5.4 > 8.1(upg) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The devourer, he needs the passive ability from broodwar. The devourer dies against corsairs(when they reach critical)! He is suppoused to eat corsair to breakfast. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- corsair: why not have same price as in bw? 150minerals / 100gas. Also, his web thing, take it back please i think we will see it more in future. remove that spell they have now? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ protoss had the darkarchon. It had feedback. 50mana, drained all energy. (two dts, emerge) Here is a potential ability against vipers for protoss, and vs scienvessels. (remove mana drain from scout?) I suggest to take him back to, maybe problem with model?? For sure, the feedback would be used atleast To those unknown, he had a spell for 100mana which stunned bio units for around 7seconds. (wow) It was rarely used tho, and i know why. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Scout: 275 minerals, 125 gas (bw) 150minerals , 100gas (starbow) and no spell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ lurker: 6movespeed, range 6 125 hp (bw) 150hp(starbow) In broodwar however, you could burrow on top of each other, cant do that in sc2. A slight nerf, since its harder to use them in big fights Defiler: 50minerals 150gas(bw) 100minerals 150 gas(starbow) Queen(viper) 100 minerals 100gas (bw) 150 minerals 100gas (starbow Did not have consume nor abduct. Though, they seem to fit. Darktemplar: 125 minerals 100gas (bw) 125 minerals 125gas (starbow) goliath: 125 hp (bw) 140hp (starbow) archon 2range (bw) 1.5 (starbow) cannon: why so huge nerf to their attackspeed, revert to bw style? remove chrono from it, around 1.2 in bw turret 75 minerals (bw) Spider mines hit stealth units (bw) without detection Spider mine dmg: 125 (bw) 100 (starbow) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The viking: make him more like the valkyrie(?) range 6 > no range upgrade cost: 250/125 though, its hard with the animation? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I suggest to also just do as in broodwar: Move matrix from medic to scienvessel, costs 100mana, gives 250hp, lasts 50sec. Emp from 75(starbow) to 100(bw) arbiter: statis: from 75(starbow) to 100(bw) ---------------------------------------------------------------- medic: from bw: restoration 50mana (upgrade) (this spell could be fun?) Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) With a better zerg larva, we will see zerg more power. We will for sure see ensnare used alot (i will spam it when zerged against bio for sure) They also had spell called flare, which was used almost never. So here we can make a new fun spell later for the medic. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- some other "small" concerns. ECONOMY: My concerns is, chronoboost is free. Comes much earlier. Protoss gets advantage because of this. Make some changes right now(?) The orbital command: Its 100minerals>cant make scvs while upgrading>scan is very useful. A nerf in cost, a huge nerf? to 25 minerals? Maybe even build time? This would make terran wanna upgrade this alot faster then now. The queen: 150 minerals right now, imagine queen only 25minerals. If the dmg he do is a problem, then nerf it or remove, could even add an upgrade if zerg decides he wanna be able to use queen's attacks If larva gets to one larva every 15sec, then maybe redesign inject slightly? Like give two additional larva every 40sec(?) But make each hatchery able to stack 5larva maximum only. Also fast spawning pool builds will have a more meaning(maybe op i have no idea). Just to unlock a fast queen. Could maybe work(?) They may sound way out of hand, but funnier to me. If these suggestions were bad, then I feel, we need to look at these more wisely later (not to far away). Or, could maybe come in hand to look at these in details since we are changing economy(?) right now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In broodwar, everything did full damage versus protoss shield. Big hidden buff to protoss. Is this fixable? We have a potential problem here. ------------------------------------------------------------------- The arbiter in bw, unlocks much slower. I believe u need every advanced building (including a arbiter building which doesnt exist in sc2). (And u need to make upgrades for it to). I feel in starbow it comes out way to early. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The carrier: Possible to see identical micro from bw? This way, they can fight goliath more effective than now. (and more fun to) Also the fleet didnt have a range upgrade. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Would love to see all these things asap. Right now if we reach lategame, one side may die horrible death cuz of big imbalance. To give an example, Right now it is: Corsairs>devourers,mutalisk,scourge. You see? Horrible death is never fun  | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
No disrespect dirty, but this isn't SC2BW. I know it's exciting to see things be bw-ish. Doesn't mean everything has to be replicated. No. A lot of these are up to Kabel whether it coincides with his vision or not. But removing the corsairs lift for d-web, making the viking more like the valkyrie. A lot of this is just going to turn this mod into SC2BW, and I already don't like that a lot of the things that made this a sequel are being removed in the first place. wtf, iam trying to help! Using words as "no disrespect" doesnt make it disrespect full. Read the comment next time before jumping to conclusions. Is it really up to kabel? No shit einstein. edit: dont quote my long quote please, it takes to much space. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
On September 01 2013 13:08 Foxxan wrote: wtf, iam trying to help! Using words as "no disrespect" doesnt make it disrespect full. Read the comment next time before jumping to conclusions. Is it really up to kabel? No shit einstein. edit: dont quote my long quote please, it takes to much space. it seems to me that he did read the whole post, and that it's you that's being disrespecful. simmer down | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Shields. We have the Hydralisk slightly buffed vs light. They kill zealots in 27 hits instead of 26 (bw). For the vast majority of units this is not a problem. Vultures are nerfed towards stalker and immortal shields. Tanks are nerfed towards zealot shields. But also consider how damn good Terran aoe (siege and mines) are compared to BW because of the smart pathing system. Even with out current movement system splash is just evil compared to BW's splash vs Protoss. It is also modifying the system in a way it simply doesn't work. You have to do silly things like make awkward compromises involving residual damage to hp from shields. Armor being awkward. Having to remake a separate set of damage for ever single unit. Overall this doesn't seem necessary at the moment. Air Unit. In BW it was okay if they all moved at very similar speeds. You could juke and dodge attacks. Air battles lasted much longer due to this. A shuttle could dodge scourge shots. Air units are just too smart in sc2. Until I rework air unit micro so that you can actually dodge, we should just tweak what we have currently as necessary. Discrepancies about cores units is something we'd rather fix. Lurker hp, goliath hp etc. I'm about to do tests on zealot dps and such. Can't wait to see a solid foundation built so we can get to making sure each race has new fun balanced options in tow. I think Toss currently has the most fun new toys. Sentinel, observer, etc. Off to testing!! edit: SBOW zealots attack significantly faster than BW zealots. No suggested numbers to make sure they match yet, gotta sleep. This is after the 10% attack speed nerf. So SC2 zealots actually attack quicker than BW zealots do. Probably the cause of a lot of difficulty in dealing with zealots early game. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Below are my suggested TvP related changes - Stalker higher damage vs normal--> Better vs dropships, banshees, hydras and mutalisks which IMO is good. But it also becomes better vs vultures which in it self is bad given that vultures aren't particularly strong in this matchup at the moment. - Implement econ changes which will benefit zerg the most and terran will suffer slightly more from this than protoss (due to chrono boost mechanism scaling with new lower worker build time). - Given that zerg receives an econ buff, I belive we can now buff Vulture's HP by 10 or so. This is probably enough to maintain their role as a pressure-unit in the early game tvz. Without that buff, I believe zerg will just completely dominate terran in the early game if they receive a larva buff. This buff will also roughly maintain the current stalker vs vulture relationships given that Stalkers receive a damage buff. - Vulture damage vs armored increased from 5 to 8 once again. I believe the current low damage of vultures makes them too weak at as they can't even kill a low number of immortals/stalkers. While stalkers is the counter-unit to vultures, immortals shouldn't rape vultures IMO. Given that these damage values only worked in BW where you did full damage to shield, I believe we should revert them. If mech is too OP, then I rather nerf tanks a tad. - Orbital command cost reduced from 100 minerals to 75 minerals. I believe that protoss benefits much more from chrono boost than terran benefits from Orbital Command. This has the effect of making terrans early game quite weak, and makes it more difficult to replicate the BW balance. Personally I don't get OC's till like the post 10 minute mark, and thus I believe a small buff here is in place. -Nullsphre buff. I would actually love to see something like 40 damage vs armored and 30 vs normal and light (up from 20 vs normal, 15 vs light and 25 vs armored). This will give it quite an interesting micro-related dynamic vs goliaths for instance as a group of sentinels can take out goliaths if they walk into the nullsphre(s). Further it will of course also make sentinel vs bio and hydras quite a bit better which according to my findings in the unit tester was quite bad. - Lower detection range of turrets --> This makes DT's stronger in the later game vs terran mech (where it IMO is quite useless as terrans have detection everywhere and units spread everywhere over the map). Stuff we should consider to nerf/have a keen eye on - Banshee's movement speed is perhaps slightly too fast, and killing it with stalkers (even if they get higher damage vs normal) is probably a bit too difficult. If it gets nerfed though, I would like to see a further Scout movement speed nerf as I really dislike the hardcounter mechanic that fast AA units provides. Alternatively, we could also consider to reduce its HP - Dropship siege tank pickup becomes an upgrade at techlab. With the current strenght of this ability, I think it is a possbility that terrans will just do this as a 2 base opener every game - especially if banshees movement speed is slightly reduced as well. Assuming vultures gets buffed, then you will likely be able to combine stuff like tank drops in main with vulture harass which could be really strong. Making this an upgrade will add a real decision for the mech player, and thus reward build order variety. - At the moment getting out 4-5 stalkers in the TvP matchups seems to be the standard and comes without any real downside. It allows you to put pressure on opponent (bunker harass) and makes defending against harass as well quite easy. Thus, especially along with chrono boost, it lets protoss early game feel a bit too easy compared to terran. Dirtybag tested various 1 base tank + vulture plays vs me (where I played as toss), and even though I played pretty greedy, it was just super easy to deal with. The solution here is that terrans start to mix in maurauders (even if you plan to transition into mech later on). IMO maurauders needs to be good enough to put real pressure on a protoss that gets too many stalkers while using too much chrono on nexus and techs too heavily. But we need to keep an eye on whether maurauders actually are strong enough to fulfill that role. Other potential issues related to the other matchups - Corsairs may need a small splash damage nerf vs mutalisks, since they absolutely rape them, and while this previously was a neccesity given the relatively weak blink stalkers and economy that heavily rewarded mobile units, I think it is likely that it could use a nerf postpatch. - How well can bio do vs zerg once zerg get the new larva boost. I can easily see zerg players just completely outproducing the bio player which means the bio player can barely ever move out of his base. This is definitely a potential issue that we need to look at. - Storm is probably too good late game (vs mostly zerg) since you can mass spam it. I suggest that we reduce its DPS vs normal and light by maintaining the current damage values and instead increases the duration of the spell. DPS vs armored can be maintained though, so it becomes good vs tanks. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Btw. I dont think there is any maurauder timing that can work vs protoss. I tested these buiilds vs each other; Protoss goes gasless 1 gate FE into pure stalker. Terran goes 1 rax geyser into expand with pure mauruaders no marines. If early game was balanced terran should be able to do economical damage against the protoss player and do a bit of damage as the protoss isn't scouting and reacting and playing a bit greedily opening (like he is supposed to get zealots out vs this build and gasless expo is quite greedy). However, protoss easily holds that back and shouldn't take any losses at all. Slow movement speed + chrono boost makes it easy for protoss to outproduce the terran player, and thus he just has 1 more stalker than terran has maurauder once terran is at protoss base. IMO the currennt maurauder probably needs a compensation buff given the fact that it is now so much slower with lower range (and then remove that switch off mode). | ||
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Nero1618
Korea (South)17 Posts
On September 01 2013 21:10 Hider wrote: Btw. I dont think there is any maurauder timing that can work vs protoss. Slow movement speed and travel distance makes it easy for protoss to FE and outproduce the terran out with just 1 gateway stalker vs rax + gas before expand build from terran. IMO the currennt maurauder probably needs a compensation buff given the fact that it is now so much slower with lower range (and then remove that switch off mode). Protoss should at least have to be in trouble if they dont have any zealots vs the maurauder. http://drop.sc/356829 Here's our game of marauder vs greedy toss. At least you killed 5 probes. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On September 01 2013 21:27 Nero1618 wrote: http://drop.sc/356829 Here's our game of marauder vs greedy toss. At least you killed 5 probes. Yeh not worth it. But I have trouble seeing what kind of variation could work. Can't really afford any early 2 rax due to no mules and if so that would be gigantically all ins. Tank + vulture out of 1 base obv. sucks, so IMO there are some issues here early game where terran needs a buff early game in order to create a more diverse matchup (vulture + maurauder I believe). A positive thing; new vulture micro feels awesome. Very difficult to pull out constantly, but also rewarding. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
right now corsair move faster than scourge, you dont found this to be problematic? Atleast make the speed equal right now and do a future change later(?) Also, in bw vulture moved double speed as worker, and almost twice against a dragoon. Vulture now do 4damage total to armored units. In bw, 20dmg to shields. 20dmg to archons. And spider mines did more damage. I dont know man, it sounds problematic to me, at the same time immortal do 10x2 dmg versus vultures. And stalkers do 14(?) or is it 12? #hider In my long post i mentioned some things about the Orbital command, i actually suggested the queen also. Reduce their cost to like 25minerals since protoss already have their for free, it comes faster. Also while upgrading to OB, you cant make scvs. And from there, if queen and OB is better than chrono, make them equal. These are just small suggestions, but i see nothing wrong with it. And terran and zerg would love to get their eco boosters out. #dec what u say about the economy right now(?) I feel we need buffs/nerfs asap. Also u want help with costs of upgrades, buildtimes ? #hider Other potential issues related to the other matchups All those things u mentíoned will settle alot more soon, and we will get a better picture. Right now, we see a rather weak opening of zerg all the time it seems. We usually dont see a fair fight either when protoss have a big arme vs zerg big arme. Spamming storm is not really possible like this since zerg should have more units. And more tech units (more lurkers for example) I suggest we wait and see more till things settle before doing changes like this. As we all agreed on before | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
can you remove the quote on my long quote? #fishgle Dude. Me being disrespectful? He jumped to conclusions before even reading my post. And when he then read it he didnt apologise. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Reduce their cost to like 25minerals since protoss already have their for free, it comes faster. I like the fact that its a decision though. If its 75 mins, then you need to decide when to get it. At 100 minerals it is slightly too expensive I think, which means you just delay it as long as possible. At 25 mins it is a nobrainer and you will get it asap I believe. Also, in bw vulture moved double speed as worker, and almost twice against a dragoon. Vulture now do 4damage total to armored units. In bw, 20dmg to shields. 20dmg to archons. And spider mines did more damage. I dont know man, it sounds problematic to me, at the same time immortal do 10x2 dmg versus vultures. And stalkers do 14(?) or is it 12? Yeh it is quite up atm. It makes any kind of timing attack that terran can do quite bad I believe. Another thing I would like to know. In bw, if you moved forward with a big army of tanks and vultures, vultures would be in front right? I am asking cus at the moment vultures get stuck all the time behind tanks, which makes it feel like you are simply battling the AI at the moment with mech. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Disrespectful or not, it does not change the fact that your post is blatantly ignoring a lot of good discussions we had earlier. This is not entirely your fault as you have not been part of the discussion as long as a lot of others, but you should not try to elevate BW to the end all solution to the problems in the mod atm. That approach has been tried and failed. The reason we are looking so much at BW balance right now is that we impemented a movement system that is much nearer to BW than SC2. That being said, your post comes with a lot of suggestions to things that some of us will have facepalmed at, simply because we tried that already. Add to this that Kabel already annouced a "minimum change" approach and you get a post that wants to radically change the game just because BW had those things, and not taking any time to discuss if those things will work for StarBow OR what gameplay effects they will have. In short your post came to look in my eyes (and i suspect a few others) as an attempt to force this mod in a direction it clearly isn't heading, instead of what it should have been - a detailed analysis of BW relationships to model our own balance after. I really hate to write a post like this, but you have been doing this purist BW pulling for a while, and its really not helping the discussion. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I intend to use BW as the balance foundation for Starbow. That approach is just easier and less time consuming for me, and for all of you. We know what values work in BW. Thus we can use it in Starbow, especially now since December made the new micro & pathing system. Just tweak the values so they fit with the SC2 engine and some new Starbow stuff. You´ve all heard this before already. I will mainly look at BW values, stats, unit relationships, etc. We can compare what BW has with what Starbow has. (As you posted Foxxan) But its very unlikely that I bring back the Dark Archon, or an Arbiter building or anything like that. Just because its too much work. Today I will just upload the final adjustements to economy: - Make each mineral patch have 1500 minerals. - 9 mineral patches in the main, 7 at the natural expansion, 8 at each expansion - Fix worker build time and Larva spawn time BW values: Workers produce every 17 second. Larvas spawn every 17 seconds. (I thought it was 15! Just found out it is actually 17 seconds, when I look in SC2BW) Starbow values: Workers produce every 22 second. Larvas spawn every 18 seconds. The reason I think this is important is due to the saturation time of bases. If the saturation time is looong, which it is now, it takes more time to "benefit" from bases. If the saturation time is short, it is really quick to benefit from a base. (There are surely other aspects too, but the closer we get to BW, the more "sure" can we be that the economy is not flawed.) Here is what I have in mind: - Worker build time 19 seconds - Larva spawn time 17 seconds (instead of 18) Due to macro mechanics Inject, Chrono and Calldown SCV, I prefer to have the worker build time slightly longer than in BW. (Otherwise bases saturate too fast, which will surely have unintended consequenses.) I will upload the patch in less than a hour. Need to fix some stuff before I can do that. Any final thoughts before we try those values? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
I really hate to write a post like this, but you have been doing this purist BW pulling for a while, and its really not helping the discussion. I think that's a bit unfair to say. Yes that specific post was a bit too much ala "BW in this way, thus we should change it to the same as BW". However, in general he can differentiate between the bad parts of BW (Dark Swarm, Stasis), while trying to promote Starbow to go into the direction of the good parts of BW. I wouldn't say he is partilularly biased, rather he is just like everyone else, that has their subjective preferences. He is correct with IMO all of his assesment of the flaws of Sbow. For instance just look at TvP early game relative to BW. In Sbow we have; - Vultures being worse - Chrono boost giving a signifciant advantage for protoss. OC being close to irrelevant early game for terran. - Stronger air openings vs terran - Stalkers raping marines + vultures much harder than dragoons did with maurauders not being a strong enough unit to offset it. So while one could argue that this could be offset by the fact that terran has stronger midgame harass options in terms of dropships + banshee's, that doesn't actually function properly atm. due to the fact that protoss easily can afford to invest in air units for the purposes of A) Nullifying a potential air harass/drop-threat threat B) Forcing goliaths which terran really don't want to invest in in the early game C) Forcing higher infastructure costs with ebay + turrets before terran can start the 3rd base. So I agree with Dirtybag, that this is a weird way of balancing the game, and I think we should give him credit for pointing out the assymetric flaws of the MOD, which he has done a great job of finding out. Thus, I believe he has contributed more to the understanding of the game than anyonelse has since he became active. Here is what I have in mind: - Worker build time 19 seconds - Larva spawn time 17 seconds (instead of 18) That isn't anywhere near enough for the ZvP imbalances. Rather this is likely to buff protoss even more in that matchup. You still have chronoboost which makes 2-gate too strong. You probably need to add another 5 seconds or so to zealot build time if you dont buff larva more than that. | ||
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