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On August 31 2013 11:58 Laertes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 18:33 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 21 2012 03:32 Kabel wrote:I have created a map that is a mixture between Sc2 and BW. The races consists of units and mechanics from both games, as well as some new stuff. - Units are "dumber" and less clumped up. - More units that benefits from micro. - More area control and protracted battles. - Units don´t die as quickly as in SC2. Since this is the first version, units, stats, abilities and mechanics will be changed. I will not write down all details, stats and everything of the races here. Just give you a brief overview. Zerg: + Show Spoiler +Terran: + Show Spoiler +Protoss: + Show Spoiler +All suggestions, ideas, feedback etc are welcome! The map is uploaded on EU server and is called: Sc2 BoW. PM me here if you want to play the map straigth away OR msg me in SC2. My name on EU server is Gossen. I need an opponent ^^ Anyone knows how I can upload the map in this thread? I can´t find where to do it T_T Hi Kabel. I am FreeToss, man who made FreeCraft(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292319#1) by himself. When I first saw your posts about making BW-SC2 Hybrid, I realised you and your assists were really unexperienced with editor (I am not much experienced either, but at least I know how to destroy autocast and these kinda stuff) so I believed you are destined to fail, while idea was not that bad, so I merged with some guys trying to do same thing. However your progress really surprised me, so I would like to ask you, if I and my asists can join your modmaking army. My asists are Diamand and Master zergs, totaly unskilled with editor, however with deep game in-sight. So, will you accept my help? I would probably have more time now as FreeCraft is nearing completion. My team had few ideas that you may apreciate. Thanks for answer, sincerly your FreeToss. Guys, I know that this is probably heavily off-topic but I want to take a moment to recognize and remember how far we've come. Kabel will probably remember FreeToss, that guy was a little bit looney, but at least he helped take the first step. Starbow has had a good 2 years in retrospect, and it wouldn't have been anything if Kabel had just given up like he wanted to.  I'm glad you kept trucking, three cheers for Kabel!
Dragoons with blink.
lol
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On August 31 2013 16:56 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 11:58 Laertes wrote:On January 21 2012 18:33 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 21 2012 03:32 Kabel wrote:I have created a map that is a mixture between Sc2 and BW. The races consists of units and mechanics from both games, as well as some new stuff. - Units are "dumber" and less clumped up. - More units that benefits from micro. - More area control and protracted battles. - Units don´t die as quickly as in SC2. Since this is the first version, units, stats, abilities and mechanics will be changed. I will not write down all details, stats and everything of the races here. Just give you a brief overview. Zerg: + Show Spoiler +Terran: + Show Spoiler +Protoss: + Show Spoiler +All suggestions, ideas, feedback etc are welcome! The map is uploaded on EU server and is called: Sc2 BoW. PM me here if you want to play the map straigth away OR msg me in SC2. My name on EU server is Gossen. I need an opponent ^^ Anyone knows how I can upload the map in this thread? I can´t find where to do it T_T Hi Kabel. I am FreeToss, man who made FreeCraft(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292319#1) by himself. When I first saw your posts about making BW-SC2 Hybrid, I realised you and your assists were really unexperienced with editor (I am not much experienced either, but at least I know how to destroy autocast and these kinda stuff) so I believed you are destined to fail, while idea was not that bad, so I merged with some guys trying to do same thing. However your progress really surprised me, so I would like to ask you, if I and my asists can join your modmaking army. My asists are Diamand and Master zergs, totaly unskilled with editor, however with deep game in-sight. So, will you accept my help? I would probably have more time now as FreeCraft is nearing completion. My team had few ideas that you may apreciate. Thanks for answer, sincerly your FreeToss. Guys, I know that this is probably heavily off-topic but I want to take a moment to recognize and remember how far we've come. Kabel will probably remember FreeToss, that guy was a little bit looney, but at least he helped take the first step. Starbow has had a good 2 years in retrospect, and it wouldn't have been anything if Kabel had just given up like he wanted to. I'm glad you kept trucking, three cheers for Kabel! Dragoons with blink. lol
X.X
Perish the thought.
@Reaper
Yeah its complicated. It did get nerfed vs stalker to keep it in the same relationship with lings.
Are you not forced to get queens asap or simply die to reapers however? Remember, SC2 lings are faster off creep than bw lings as well. Slower BW style lings=better micro control.
I would LOVE to have just slow lings benefit from creep speed. That is actually a great idea.
You can make metabolic boost get rid of the creep speed bonus, but in return your lings are obviously a great dealer faster when travelling across the map.
Does that sound good? Then we can keep the slowing speed>only slightly faster>reaper speed.
Reaper speed can than be buffed back to proper value.
@Vultures
I think I've sucessfully replicated BW vultures much better than the SC2BW mod. You only need to make an attack move once, and when vultures come across a target they perform a moving shot (this also means if you a-move against zealots or something and don't pull back immedieately you'll get a face full of blades just like BW).
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Yeah its complicated. It did get nerfed vs stalker to keep it in the same relationship with lings.
Are you not forced to get queens asap or simply die to reapers however? Remember, SC2 lings are faster off creep than bw lings as well. Slower BW style lings=better micro control.
I think you are, but is that a huge problem? Its the same as in Sc2 in that regard, where slowlings only are used to win time for queens to get out.
You can actually do it reactionary (you don't have to do it every game). You scout his rax, and if a marine isn't out after 20 seconds, then its a reaper opening and you can build 2 queens as a reponse. If there is a marine out instead, then you can take a quick 3rd or something else.
You can make metabolic boost get rid of the creep speed bonus, but in return your lings are obviously a great dealer faster when travelling across the map.
Sounds fine I think.
- Creep spread. Why spread creep? It feels so unnecessary now, since it gives no speed bonus. Yes it gives vision and it gives hit point regeneration for units out of combat. Just like it did earlier. But that does not feel worth it, considering the amount of APM and the effort required by players doing good creep spread. And it is IMO a fun mechanic. I think it should have a stronger benefit,
I think it is a necceasry mechanic in Sc2, because zergs really don't do anything for the majority of the game besides defending in most matchups. So zerg would simply be too easy if it didn't have an "aritfical" APM consuming mechanic.
However, I think Sbow zerg has much more aggressive options, and IMO it becomes more fun if players use their first 100-150 APM on micro'ing, setting up flanks, harassing, dropping etc, rather than mass spreading creep. So I personally like that it has received a smaller role in the game, and it can still be used by players with excessive APM.
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Difference is in HOTS you can push a reaper back off a cliff with slow lings.
Then you could camp the cliff edge.
In Starbow, you absolutely needed queens because a single reaper could slaughter your entire squad of lings.
I remember seeing people die to 1 or 2 reapers just because they didn't get queens. Wouldn't have happened so easily with the hots unit speed relationship.
That aside, we could solve this easily via the creep multiplier for slow lings only.
@Creep
Serrrrrriously what Hider said.
You could either baneling bust, or just be defensive all game long. The way we have it is SO much better.
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Anyway, next thing I belive should receive some attention is to make zergs less reliant on its late game tier 3 ability Dark Swarm. At the moment it feels like Dark Swarm is just there for balance purposes. We might as well remove Dark Swarm and give zerg a tier 3 upgrade which reduces its damage against tanks by 50%. ^^
Instead, I believe abilities should have the following characteristica;
A) They should be optional. Typically abilities becomes preferable in some types of situations. I don't like abilities you just always get regardless of what the opponent is doing.
B) Have uncertainity.
C) Opponent should be able to remicro against it (either before ability is used or after the ability is used).
IMO Dark Sawrm bascially fails in all of these 3 categories, and thus I believe that is why Dirtybag and I severely dislikes the way it currently works.
But before we can change Dark Swarm, we need to compensate zerg in other areas, such as;
- "Drop on top of tanks"-micro could probably receive a small late game buff. Dirtybag tried it vs me and it seemed quite weak vs goliats/tank (+ turrets) combo. I suggested a tier 3 +50 HP upgrade for overlords to solve this potential issue.
- I am not sure Guardians have a real role. In Sc2 Broodlords require a different response than mutalisks. But in Sbow you can deal with them in the same way you deal with Mutalisks (irradiate and goliaths). I think it would be more fun if it forced a different reaction.
- Ultralisks too weak?. They seem weak vs mech without Dark Swarm, and if new immortals also rape them, then they may need a HP buff.
If stats adjusted so zerg late game is more balanced and Dark Swarm becomes optional, then I believe we have two options here;
Option 1: Replace it with binding Cloud from Sc2. This will be much weaker than it is in Sc2 due to the fact that tanks are 2 supply (so you have more of them) and tanks overall are stronger. Getting 30-50% of your tanks clouded in Sc2 is game-ending. In Sbow you can still win. The advantage of Binding Cloud over Dark Swarm (from a design perspective) is that it makes it possible for the mech player to minimize potential damage of binding cloud by spreading out his tanks before the battle occurs.
Option 2: Nerf Dark Swarm. Even with new pathing, I still think the radius of Dark Swarm likely is too large. I personally don't think a single Dark Swarm should be able to protect more than like 10-15 supply of units (general rule). A much lower radius will make it a lot harder to use optimally for the zerg player.
Further, I would like to see a much lower casting range (like 2 or so), so if the terran is quick he can either get EMP off or use tanks to focus fire the Defilers
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At last, we also need a plan regarding the stalkers role in PvZ. I think unless someone is forced to do it, they won't build this unit voluntary. Corsairs are insanely strong vs mutalisks and getting these blindly and then relying on pure speedlot + HT's seems a lot stronger. So I am not sure that we will get any real testing of whether my hypothesis is wrong or right, unless players simply are "forced" to test it.
So I suggest we buff it (increase damage vs normal from 14 to 16 --> stronger vs mutas + hydras).
This will make more players test it --> then we reevaluate it whether it works as intedended or whether dragoon should just be added in the game. IMO the stalker needs to be good vs mutalisk and kinda good vs hydras for it ever to see any usage (since it sucks vs anything else). At the moment though, it seems to be only kinda good vs mutalisks and kinda bad vs hydralisks.
So let me just sum up the few things I would like to see in a new patch;
- Scouts movement speed reduced to 2.85*0.9
- Zerg non dark swarm units/abilities buffed vs mech
- Dark Swarm nerfed
- Reaper/zergling change
- Stalker damage increase vs normal
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@dec
sad  . Maybe make it bit more visual in controlgroup how much energy a nexus has? (if it's not hard to do) that would help as well, so i'll manually target.
And yeah, mineral patches should be 1.5k with current balance, there's a lot more room for aggression, so it happens a lot that players are stuck on 3 or less bases. You can see the gas starting to float really hard after some time, because you just don't have enough minerals to spend your gas with.
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@Creep spread
+ Show Spoiler +@Creep Spread
Having mobile queens and extra vision already feels like a nice, tangible benefit.
If we want players taking bases scattered, moving across the map with freedom there cannot be a super serious threatening FORCED mechanic with creep.
I heavily dislike forcing players to creep, that is my primary issue with speed buff on creep.
The vision is nice. Mobile queens I think you are underestimating. Extra regen is something players probably don't think all that much about.
Let players get better and better and they will more than likely be better creep spreaders. With so much going on they focus on what they deem should be focused on. Could they spread creep with their current apm? Should they? The answer is yes to all these questions, but forcing this doesn't seem fun in my eyes.
Don't get my wrong I like seeing creep be spread across the map, but I much prefer bases spread across the map and battles that don't hinge on Z sticking at home.
I think it is a necceasry mechanic in Sc2, because zergs really don't do anything for the majority of the game besides defending in most matchups. So zerg would simply be too easy if it didn't have an "aritfical" APM consuming mechanic.
However, I think Sbow zerg has much more aggressive options, and IMO it becomes more fun if players use their first 100-150 APM on micro'ing, setting up flanks, harassing, dropping etc, rather than mass spreading creep. So I personally like that it has received a smaller role in the game, and it can still be used by players with excessive APM.
Why this talk about forcing creep spread?
If Zerg units NEEDED creep to be able to move at all, then yes, we force Zerg to spread creep.
Should we nerf Chrono boost too, because P is forced to use it?
It is more fun if P spends his first 100 APM on microing, flanking and doing more fun stuff.
All I am saying is that creep spread should not be shit. If a Z player want to be efficient on spreading creep, then there should be a benefit. Its an option.
- Vision can Zerg get by placing Overlords and Zerglings on important locations.
- HP regeneation barely matters on the early units. Maybe on Lurkers and Ultralisks in the late game. Bring Overlords to drop creep on them if you need to heal them at odd locations.
Maybe Zergling speed bonus will be enough.
Or we can just let all Zerg units gain a speed bonus, but not as large as before...
Ps. Scout movement speed can be a bit lower yes.
- I am not sure Guardians have a real role. In Sc2 Broodlords require a different response than mutalisks. But in Sbow you can deal with them in the same way you deal with Mutalisks (irradiate and goliaths). I think it would be more fun if it forced a different reaction.
What other T units should be able to deal with them? Vikings? BC? Marines?
Will probably be hard to NOT make Goliath + Vessel the best alternative.
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Below are two PvT replays. One where Scout first came into the game in the later stages (and absolutely shut down everything once they came in).
And another where protoss opened scout and we had a stalemale quite early (though he probably could have killed me with them if he had attempted).
http://drop.sc/356699
http://drop.sc/356698
Basically I think scouts opening are quite insane atm. 1) They shut down everything offensively terran can do (timing attacks, harass etc.). 2) They force terran to invest in AA, which reduces tank count significantly for the terran player --> Takes later 3rd, while toss can take the whole map. 3) They may just kill you outright if terran doesn't have enough AA ready at the time they come.
I think a movement speed reduction to 2.85 *0.9 is required, and possibly a damage to ground nerf should be considered as well. I think it is a better that they are used as a spellcaster and heavy AA for the later stages of the game, rather than a "stale the early game"-unit.
The sentinel is the harass/map conttrol unit, and IMO stalkers should be the main unit to defend vs harass (otherwise it won't have a role atm). So I believe scout should be nerfed untill it just kinda sucks to get it in the early stages of the game - Otherwise I believe the matcup will be quite stale for the first 20 minutes. So if damage to armored units is reduced from 15*2 to 10*20, then a push with something like 2 goliaths + a couple of tanks and vultures could possible kill the protoss if the protoss opened with some scouts.
So to sum up, I would like to see two changes to the scout;
- Lower movement speed.
- Lower damage vs armored ground units.
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Should we nerf Chrono boost too, because P is forced to use it?
IF chrono required a lot of APM, yes then that ability would suck as well. However, it is much less APM demanding, and thus the benefits it gives to the game (adds a bit of decision making) outweights the disadvantage of slightly lower time spent on controlling units.
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@Problem with speed bonus on the other units is that it can break microability of units.
Too fast of melee units? MUCH less micro allowed because of smart pathing.
Too fast of ranged units? It becomes necessary for opponent to have something like charge to catch them.
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IF chrono required a lot of APM, yes then that ability would suck as well. However, it doesn't.
Earlier, when I played with early Hydralisks vs early Zealot attacks, I felt an advantage when I dropped down the first and second creep tumor during the combat. ("Ok, hope it gets down and not killed!") My Hydralisks gained a slight speed advantage over a slightly larger area, which made me feel like I do not have to pump streams of Zerglings. If I am good enough with my Hydra micro, and do my creep spread, and the enemy does not target it, I can defend with fewer Hydralisks vs his Zealots, and this save me some money and larva. But ofc should not creep mean that Zerg units > enemy units. It should just give a small boost.
@Problem with speed bonus on the other units is that it can break microability of units.
Too fast of melee units? MUCH less micro allowed because of smart pathing.
Too fast of ranged units? It becomes necessary for opponent to have something like charge to catch them.
Yes, absolutely. If the speed bonus is too high, that is a problem. But if we find a good middle value, then I don´t think there is a problem. Just a small advantage. Earlier it was a set value of 0.5. That was still quite high, especially when some units fought vs each other. Maybe 5%? Or different for different units?
But yea yea this is not the most important thing in the game atm. This can come later if needed.
Hahaha at Laertes necro over the first version of Starbow :D
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The balance between hydra speed and zealots is SUPER narrow and fragile.
If the zealot can't tail a hydra effectively then you are basically killing any sort of two gate pressure from doing damage against early hydra. Z ALWAYS has creep at his main and natural so its a free defense there 100% of the time.
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But I just love dat creep spread 
Ps. Why is there no good crying smiley? This one just looks like a smiley with stomach issues
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I would still spread creep even if there were no speed boost (especially if lings got speed boost). It gives a ton of map-control. Sure you can have overlords all over the place but that's 100 min and potential supply block if you lose one. Creep-tumors are virtually free. Also, regen and fast queens yo!
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December sent me an update. I will upload it later today when I am back home. Maybe 3-4 hours from now.
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Tested the new nullsphrere. It definitely looks more natural at the moment, however it does seem quite weak. It deals 15 damage vs marines just which means medis can heal it up in almost no time. I also tested to see if i could pick up hydras with some sentinels + nullsphre, but was really quite hard.
Vs mutalisks it deals 20 damage, which they kinda regenerate pretty fast. While the old nullsphrere looked weirder, I am pretty sure it was stronger than this.
Yes, absolutely. If the speed bonus is too high, that is a problem. But if we find a good middle value, then I don´t think there is a problem. Just a small advantage.
What about just giving certain units - where exact speed value doesn't matter that much - a speed boost? So hydras and speedlings aren't affected, but maybe lurkers, ultralisks and slowlings are?
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#kabel
My Hydralisks gained a slight speed advantage over a slightly larger area, which made me feel like I do not have to pump streams of Zerglings
If there is a problem with this ts balance problem, and not about creep.
In bw
1) protoss had no chronoboost (less zealots, less probes)
2) zerg had more larva
Now we have made the attacksystem in this game, and i feel zerglings will have a bit easier against zealots.
Remember before 1zealot can outmicro 4slowlings, i dont think u can that as easily now for example (need further testing)
So with these words, nothing to do with creep at all,
creep is a very boring ability (if it gives speedbonus). Queens can still move faster, and now they talk about slowlings move faster, sure it could work but i dont like that logic. But, we could also add some cool ability later.
Imagine 4fun a new unit in starbow/expansion, which can use a "teleport" through connected creep.
It could create very dynamic and fun sitautions.
Please dont add speed bonus to creep, it ruins so muchgameplay
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#dec
Think you could have had just 2-3 robo instead of 5? Pumped more gates instead?
Yes ofcourse. Mixing the perfect combination will get way more games than now.
It was my 3rd pvt, and iam just a beginner with this.
We will see much more variation later on.
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#hider
I feel you jump to conclusions way to fast!
You havent even mentioned banshee yet, it moves in 3.25 speed. You dont feel this is very high? It even has a cloak(?).
So if u run with banshees, and i blink and u cloak. (?)I need to upgrade observer speed just for your banshees
Stalker for protoss. Can never engage tanks (sort of). Exeptions withstand.
If protoss invest in stalkers to beat dropship harass, or banshee harass. Then what if terran go agressive with many tanks? How many gateways do protoss need on 2base or 3base. Mixing with robotics is harder than the eye sees.
Against agressive terrans that also do frontal attacks and sick harassplay, can protoss even survive this?
Iam not so sure about this tbh, with robotic and gateway play, it can become very hard.
But i dont say this yet, i need way more games for this.
How many stalker do protoss need? Stalker do piss damage to tanks, and do they do piss damage to dropships to(?)
Iam not sure now so i want mention that. But if you drop tanks, lets say u have 4dropships = 6tank, 4vulture drop they beat 12stalkers EASY.
With this method that weak AA stalker from gateway.
Strong immortal from robo, it is so hard for protoss right now. Mixing the right combo with gateway/robo.
You say scout blocks dropship to.
Are you sure about this? How many games have you tried to mix in goliaths with your drops?
And if protoss goes scouts, how can you use them in a big battle?
Golaths shred the scouts easy, and u wanna nerf their damage?
Imo, you jump to conclusions very very very fast!
I would appreciate it if you stopped doing that and try way more stuff before jumping to conclusions.
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I feel you jump to conclusions way to fast!
You havent even mentioned banshee yet, it moves in 3.25 speed. You dont feel this is very high? It even has a cloak(?).
So if u run with banshees, and i blink and u cloak. (?)I need to upgrade observer speed just for your banshees
Yeh but you can't do anything with banshees. You can force protoss to defend with his scouts with a cannon in each mineral line. But how fun is that when it absolutely stales the game.
Besides, it absolutely destroys the role of the stalker, since it is far superior in every single way (basically). And in terms of offensive potential, it is simply better than sentinels at the moment, thus I believe it needs to be nerfed both in terms of mobility and damage vs armored ground units.
In terms of balance, I believe immortals currently are balanced through the notion that A) You mix in some stalkers to the unit compostiion, B) You can get some EMP's off late game as terran.
However, you can't really do that when Scouts are in the game. Please watch the game and see how efficiently he "feedbacks" my SV's and retreats barely before goliaths can get a shut off.
Stalker for protoss. Can never engage tanks (sort of). Exeptions withstand.
If protoss invest in stalkers to beat dropship harass, or banshee harass. Then what if terran go agressive with many tanks? How many gateways do protoss need on 2base or 3base. Mixing with robotics is harder than the eye sees.
Against agressive terrans that also do frontal attacks and sick harassplay, can protoss even survive this?
Iam not so sure about this tbh, with robotic and gateway play, it can become very hard.
But i dont say this yet, i need way more games for this.
Its very possible that stalker is underpowered in its intended role at the moment, but then let's look at that as a balance issue that can be fixed, rather than keeping the current hardcounter solution in the game.
For instance, I suggested to increase stalker damage to 16 to normal which will make them stronger vs dropships and banshees as well. I believe stalker + immortal vs dropships or stalker vs banshee is a far more interesting dynamic than scout vs banshee or scout vs dropships.
The old viking had a similar role in the early midgame, where it just staled the game, but ofc. without it terran was too weak defensively early game. But the correct solution wasn't to keep the viking as a super strong preventive unit, but too nerf it significantly and buffs terrans early game AA in two ways; 1) Easier to get goliaths out and 2) Lower movement speed of goliaths and 3) Weaker sentinels.
Anyway, please watch the replay I uploaded, and notice from my perspective, how little you actually can do as terran. Your simply locked into your base all game long.
You say scout blocks dropship to.
Are you sure about this? How many games have you tried to mix in goliaths with your drops?
And if protoss goes scouts, how can you use them in a big battle?
Golaths shred the scouts easy, and u wanna nerf their damage?
Goliaths don't shred Scouts. 2 scouts > 2 goliath, and that is why I suggested to remove the extra damage they deal to armored. Since Goliaths are harder to get out than scouts (assuming you want to have dropship tech and a decent tank count as well), then I don't believe dropping goliaths is ever practical. Please be aware that I am not making these posts without having tested it in various situations and compared it to alternatives.
Thus Scouts actually does a very good job in battles;
1) They make terran not wanna get SV's, which means that archons, HT's and Arbiters become a lot stronger.
2) They forces the terran to overmake goliaths, because if the terran is left with no AA after a battle, the scouts can clean up the rest of the army, as you see in one my games vs Stana.
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#hider
Ok, i did some fast testing in the unit tester.
I agree with you, the scout is actually a powerbeast. I took for granted the ground damage was only 8 as in bw, how stupid of me
so i apologise about that
I did some light test 4scout vs 4viking, the scouts win.
Though, the vikings have a critical mass since they have aoe. Why do they have aoe btw?
But it takes time to get that so its not very relevevant right now
viking and scout have 3.25 movementspeed
banshee have 3.35
both these speeds feels a bit to high, i dont know what to do about this
edit: did some fast tests about the spell versus scienvessel, hard to determine but it looked a bit to easy to get the spells going also.
Ye changes to scout is a must imo to now
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Qqhw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DFdLv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cfmtx.jpg)
