EPT[A] Starbow - Page 379
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 31 2013 01:34 Sumadin wrote: Any details on what will be changed? X.x I'll make a vod over it to explain things in better detail. Major changes New pathing system Idle spreading system BW Eco All ground units are reworked in how they fight. For instance, a zealot stands in place briefly during his swing. His swing is also able to miss allowing units to dodge zergling and zealot melee attacks (this makes battles much more microable, longer, and allows you to control your melee units instead of the ai doing it for you at 100% efficiency). Ground unit speed relationships all reworked. Vulture can now do a moving attack move or patrol shot (single target fire doesn't work  ).Vulture mine planting reworked. Mines are now draggable. Stalker is now more agile than units like hydras and marauders allowing you to skirmish more effectively. Archon buff. Mutalisks clump a little bit tighter making irradiate an actual answer vs 30 million mutalisks. Hydralisks via change to radius, attack system and other small changes are now able to actually fight vs zealots (obviously you don't want to fight small groups of speed hydras vs small groups of speed zealots or anything like that). Before they would get absolutely demolished with zero chance of survival. Formation diameter is now 14. PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN MOVING OBSERVERS AND SPELLCASTERS IN YOUR ARMY CONTROL GROUP!!!! If you have an observer on the bottom of your army group, it will stay there as long as the formation is broken. Tooooottallly worth it. Default magic box just cannot support formations using unlimited selection. edit: I'll see you guys on at 9 pm whatever time zone Norway is. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
Hydralisks via change to radius, attack system and other small changes are now able to actually fight vs zealots. Sounds risky. I hope you took into account that you can have 2 hydras for the supply of 1 Zealots. It is one of those things that won't matter much until later in game, but if their power ratio doesn't match this, then things could spin out of control for Protoss in the late game. We will see. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
All major changes in this patch are made by December. A lot of bug fixing etc has been done by XiA. So I am actually curious myself to see how this will be  | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Anyone wanna play??? come to channel edit: iam curious, the hatchery says 0/20 with 10mineral patches, just a "bug" or? Or hard to fix cuz workers are more stupid? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 31 2013 01:57 Sumadin wrote: Sounds risky. I hope you took into account that you can have 2 hydras for the supply of 1 Zealots. It is one of those things that won't matter much until later in game, but if their power ratio doesn't match this, then things could spin out of control for Protoss in the late game. We will see. Toss has some heavy aoe choices as in the form of storm and reavers. With a small radius aoe will be slightly more effective vs hydralisks. edit:My last class is canceled for the holiday weekend. Starbow time!!! edit edit: cast is live www.twitch.tv/decemberscalm GOGOGO imba immortals | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
- Unit pathing + attack system micro felt and looked good IMO. It can surely be improved/polished further, but overall I enjoyed it a lot at least. - Economy needs a second look. I think its good that we aim for BW economy. But there are some things that are off, for example Gas + Mineral ratio, plus Worker build time. IMO workers should take longer time to build in Starbow compared to BW, since we now have macro mechanics that can boost them: Chrono boost, Inject and Calldown SCV. I think they are important for the game so I will not remove them. And if workers are produced too quickly, the saturation will feel off. Atm, workers take 22 seconds to build. 17 seconds in SC2 and BW*. Maybe 18-20 seconds could be ok. Need to calculate it. The problem is that it will be uneven if the worker production speed get boosted, since Zerg does not benefit from it. Their Larva spawn rate is the thing that determines that. In Sc2 and BW, a Larva spawns every 15 second. In Starbow every 18 seconds. Maybe just revert Larva to 15 second, and Inject makes that 10 seconds or something? - Creep spread. Why spread creep? It feels so unnecessary now, since it gives no speed bonus. Yes it gives vision and it gives hit point regeneration for units out of combat. Just like it did earlier. But that does not feel worth it, considering the amount of APM and the effort required by players doing good creep spread. And it is IMO a fun mechanic. I think it should have a stronger benefit, As you said in the stream December, Starbow intends to be some kind of "sequel" to BW. But we have never really been able to dig deep into BW, and implement fundamental basics like we do now: for example combat system and economy. Those aspects play such an important role for the game. And I do intend to go more BW, mainly because I am short on time nowadays to try new solutions, make stuff from scratch etc. Instead I want to look at what works from BW, use it, and then tweak it where necessary, so it fits into the SC2 engine and with the new stuff we have in Starbow. I have some more minor stuff on my mind, but this is enough for now. If you have time, it would be cool if you could work some more on the file. Maybe can we play more on EU tomorrow evening with an update *In the SC2BW MOD, workers are built in 17 in-game seconds. But the game clock use real time seconds, which means that each worker take 10 real seconds to build. But converted into SC2 and Starbow speed, that should be 17 seconds. Not sure how it is in real BW. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
against mech which will proof itself more when terran macros up more, go more harass play etc, at the same time i believe it will be hard to go more heavy play against mech, you need both zealots and immortals in pvz, i have no clue here, iam not a fan of blink cuz it either breaks or stales, will we see more use of immortal in the future? Probably. In bw, lurker had 6range, with immortal 7 a problem? Still immortal should be good against something, but hard to tell right now. Stalker seem to be the more decent option cuz of airplay though, lurker have 25less hp in bw, and siegetank have 30less hp, and i believe we should implement that into starbow, so stalker will become a little better there about fun: the immortal is fun to use overall, also he feels like a weapon. You know his purpouse the stalker on the other hand, is he boring to use cuz he feels so weak? Blink play, never been a big fan of that. I dont know what i should write really kabel. the immmortal is fun to battle with, the stalker is not really fun to battle with and there are some imba concerns with my trained eye and experience, it should matter something atleast but we need way more games before we do decision about imba | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
THEY WERE AWESOMEEEEEEEEE!!! I don't think I can watch HOTS streams anymore x.x + Show Spoiler + x.x see that I died Dirtybag People telling me micro'ing their units was fun, and that watching the fights was tons of fun filled my heart with joy, seriously not even kidding. @Creep Spread Having mobile queens and extra vision already feels like a nice, tangible benefit. If we want players taking bases scattered, moving across the map with freedom there cannot be a super serious threatening FORCED mechanic with creep. I heavily dislike forcing players to creep, that is my primary issue with speed buff on creep. The vision is nice. Mobile queens I think you are underestimating. Extra regen is something players probably don't think all that much about. Let players get better and better and they will more than likely be better creep spreaders. With so much going on they focus on what they deem should be focused on. Could they spread creep with their current apm? Should they? The answer is yes to all these questions, but forcing this doesn't seem fun in my eyes. Don't get my wrong I like seeing creep be spread across the map, but I much prefer bases spread across the map and battles that don't hinge on Z sticking at home. @Eco I'll be doing tests to try to find some numbers that will put all races at their BW's equivalent. I want as close as possible to BW because Eco is a massive deal in game flow, pace, and style. With units, upgrades, and abilities we can be a lot more flexible with that solid firm base. Confounding factors will be things like, Terran doesn't even use scv drop half the time (favoring supply drop or scan reserve instead. edit: @stalker immortal It actually looked great from what I saw. I think you made too many robos, but all of us were shocked how many immortals you were able to get out. Hmmm.... Maybe it would be better and more fun to have a gateway "no warp ins allowed" dragoon. No warp ins mainly because no warp in model ^^. I'm terrified of that prospect, solid doesn't seem to be concerned by it. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
The most fun immortal we have ever had in Starbow (unless you thought it was hilarious a-moving tank lines when we had hardened shield) is the current implementation. The current version is as fast as a dragoon, shoots like a dragoon, and moves like a dragoon. It has roughly 1.3 DPS, HP, and cost compared to a dragoon. Instead of being gateway (it was never warp inable) it is on robo. It no longer performs like an sc2 immortal. In fact is is the opposite of an sc2 immortal. SC2:Tank to heavy damage, hardcounter armored, and slow DPS unit SBOW/BW:Mobile fire support If an sc2 players builds immortals he expects them to blindly hard counter mech. If he builds a dragoon he does not. We could either swap model retaining the current structure or shake it up. Yes we could simply have dragoon on gateway. We could also find a room for the stalker alongside it. I think its possible at least. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
but all of us were shocked how many immortals you were able to get out. pro macro | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
ahahaha @Kabel MAPS!!!! If we have 1.5 k min per patch we will see an increase in both battle size and survivability of players. Additionally, I think we should start thinking about maps we'd like to see get ported, or see which sc2 maps could be slightly modified to fit. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Think you could have had just 2-3 robo instead of 5? Pumped more gates instead? | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Be nice Edit:New moving shot on vulture is SIIIIIIICCCCCCCKKKK!!!! Any time I make something data based it turns to gold. Edit: Carrier micro is already in (blizz's version at least). It is harder to do than BW version. As soon as you kill a unit you want to immediately retarget another unit. Edit: @Solid I was looking into the chrono boost situation. There is a flag called Best Unit that tells the system, use the closest unit with energy to the target. Upon removing that flag to see what happens it disables smart casting. For testing I had 6 nexus's. Alllllll chrono'ing the same thing at a time. It was quite amusing. Sorry buddy, looks like that is built into SC2. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
- A decision from the protoss player where he weights the pros and contra of increased cost efficiency (higher immortal to stalker ratio) vs lower mobility vs drops + banshees. - A reward for scouting and reacting as the mech'ing terran. Against very heavy immortal play I believe it will be quite difficult to play a reallly passive game as a mech terran. It is probably doable, you will have to play mistakefree (probably). But if you instead take advantage of the fact that immortals cant shoot air, then you can gain an economic advantage or equalize the economy by harassing the protoss player. Relative to just having a Dragoon in the game, this does add an extra level of into the matchup. Anyway, here are some of the problems I still see with the current state of the game. @ Reaper As I understand it, reapers movement speed was nerfed from 3.75*0.9 to 2.75 due to replicate the slowling vs reaper movement speed difference on creep in Hots. Since slowlings no longer benefit from creep, then reapers were made slower. I think this was the wrong difference for the following reasons; 1) It was already degraded to a semi-"cheesy" opening in TvP. It did have a purpose though, to make sure the protoss took geysers and cybercore before landing down a nexus, however if the protoss opponent played safe with a normal fast probe scout, then 1 rax CC is IMO superior. But a good terran player would definitely mix in a reaper opening here and there to make sure the protoss couldn't be too greedy. 2) Reapers weren't imbalanced in TvZ prepatch. Queens for instance are build 10 seconds faster now, and I believe problems with the reaper into vulture openings mostly lies in build order inefficiences + early game macro from the zerg player. For instance when I played vs Ditybag, the reapers didn't do any real direct damage. Though obviously the benefit of delaying the 3rd of the zerg player is quite benefical though, but that was hardly a real balance issue IMO. Now the reaper has become useless in all matchups. It is 2 supply, which make FE expansions kinda bad, as you need a second suply depot before the cc. It has 50 HP (compared to 60 in HOTS) and it can't even kite efficiently against slowlings anymore at any place on the map. You might as well go reactor vultures every single game against zerg (which IMO was the real strenght of the TvZ opening). So instead, it IMO makes more sense to A) Revert movement speed to 3.75*0.9 and B) Make slowlings the only unit which has its movement speed increased on creep. That will also help with various other builds (reactor vulturues and 2 gate) which seems quite strong atm. It is an inconsistent solution indeed, however it does a much better job of fixing the core problem. I don't believe that changing its supply from 2 to 1 or HP from 50 to 60 will be enough. Versus protoss it really needs to go into a base, pick of 1-2 probes, scout a bit and then retreat. Against zerg it needs to be able to kite slowlings off-creep. Otherwise it will simply never be used. @ Pathing Units are slowed down significiantly when their army sizes gets big. Maybe this is a good thing for some units (tanks, immortals etc.), but I really wonder whether speedlings moving at 2.4 (or so) movement speed is a good thing. I believe it takes the "freedom"-feeling that you have with units such as speedlings and vultures if you make their mobility very limited. Maybe we should/could make an exception for some units? @ Scouts I believe this unit in TvP mech is much superior in every single way to the stalker. In the opening of the post I talked about stalker to immortal ratio, however that is completely irrelevant with the currrent strenght of the scouts as you rather just go only Scouts with no Stalkers. Due to its movement speed of 3.25 *.9 it easily shuts down any type of harass play such as dropships or banshees. Further it can also be used to harass in the early midgame, which can be quite costly too handle as terran as you really dont want to invest too much into goliaths and turrets. And at last, it also counters SV, which means that an Arbiter transition in the later game becomes really strong. Since protoss can always scout the terrans opening (with quick observer) he can always have a Scout out in time for banshees and dropships, which IMO (once metagame is figured out) will make terran openings very limited. Previously in Sbow it only had 2.85 movement speed and was thus less efficient at dealing with drop play + banshees. I think that's a much more reasonable number (2.85*0.9). | ||
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