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purakushi
United States3303 Posts
On August 30 2013 05:13 decemberscalm wrote: @Pura With two clicks yes. No more flashing lights! Is there anyone who actually cares about it? They added it in during the transition from WoL. I think it was a nice addition, but I wish it was optional. When you say 2 clicks to turn it on/off, is that for the whole mod/map or just for the unit spreading? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On August 30 2013 14:39 Nero1618 wrote: Does units auto spread when on hold position? No, this is how you stop auto-spread if you want to keep your units clumped. But remember, if they are clumped they will eventually form the "line" when they move for too long. Also, I won't be able to play/cast any games tonight  But I should be online tomorrow night for awesome Starbowness! May the Bow with with you all! | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
They had almost exactly the same dps vs zealots. The problem is that hydras are a great deal bigger than BW hydras. DPS density is important, especially when considering melee pathing is more efficient in SC2. I've finished basssssically most of what I planned to put in this patch. It is a lot, I didn't write anything down so I cannot promise a 100% accurate change log x.x. I do however hope to see BW eco and better battles in game ^^. Edit: It also appears I was right considering the reaper zergling relationship. In SC2 on creep the zergling without speed is 1.1 times faster than a reaper. This forces them away and to poke from off creep. Since we are trying to get away from the reliance on creep/speed relationships I've keep the speed relationship of 1.1*faster zergling. Keep in mind, you can now dodge melee shots by running away (long as you are fast enough to run away from the hit). This means that a reaper should be more survivable vs speed lings. They will need to actually get a surround on you instead of just 1-move. Hopefully this balances out just fine. Before reapers WAY outsped zerglings. You NEEDED queens or you were dead no matter what. | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Hider was indeed right. Hydras were nerfed against zealots compared to BW. They had almost exactly the same dps vs zealots. The problem is that hydras are a great deal bigger than BW hydras. DPS density is important, especially when considering melee pathing is more efficient in SC2. Can we make them smaller then, or what else should we do? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 30 2013 18:16 Hider wrote: Can we make them smaller then, or what else should we do? Already done ^^. Had a pretty dramatic effect too. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On August 30 2013 18:29 decemberscalm wrote: Already done ^^. Had a pretty dramatic effect too. Cool can we also test storm radius/reaver/tank splash damage with new pathing relative to BW vs hydras? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
All taken into consideration! I've done multiple tests to clock how fast a Hydra attacks and the current SBOW version I have basically synchs right up to the BW hydra. Of course we have slightly different damage stats (because we don't have full damage shields, booo blizzard!!!). 27 hits to finish off a zealot instead of 26. @Hider I'd love to. Still working furiously so we've got some sort of playable build for today (plus I've got university today x.x).So far we've got BW eco, the new pathing system with pretty good looking idle spread. A giant overhaul to how units attack. Reworked immortal. Muta regen gone. Mutalisks clump just a tad bit tighter making irradiate actually worth it vs mutalisks. Overhaul to unit speed. Vulture moving shot. Mine dragging with reworked mine damage values. The aoe is roughly BW sized, but the damage is slightly nerfed 100 explosive damage down from 125 (explosive here meaning 50 to light, 75 to normal, 100 to armored). The aoe does its 100 damage payload in 1 radius, so higher central damage. In comparison the old mine was less damage but that same amount of damage over a larger aoe. Reworked mine planting. Marauder slightly reworked. It moves just barely slower than a marine and with a different damage point. No longer are they a fat marine. Controlling a group of marines and marauders requires actual attention to how each unit fights differently. Onwards and upwards!!! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
A giant overhaul to how units attack. Reworked immortal. Muta regen gone. Mutalisks clump just a tad bit tighter making irradiate actually worth it vs mutalisks. Thought we would add Dragoon into the game? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
More clumped up mutas also make archons do better vs them. Archons are a joke vs mutas atm. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On August 30 2013 21:00 Xiphias wrote: Kabel siad we'd try stalker + immortal first since immortal got new micro. More clumped up mutas also make archons do better vs them. Archons are a joke vs mutas atm. Hmm not sure though I am fan of that given that we are replicating BW now. I mean what is the role of the stalker in PvZ. What about TvP mech? The current stats of stalkers (unlesss it gets buffed to 16 vs normal) just makes them useless vs zerg, and you will rather wanna go zealot/corsair early game then. But if it does get buffed, then zealots needs to be worse vs hydras than they are in BW. I feel like unless we really wanna invest some time into giving them a fun role in TvP and balancing PvZ properly, then the BW solution is better. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
edit: bad news, i have just turned off mouse acceleration after using it my entire life i get tired, less accurate, its a pain right now i will still play but i will suck for weeks from now | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
You can actually disable current order indicators manually. I can also turn on a trigger that overrides that option to disabled. My only worry is people new to the mod must be told that they can turn it off. @Hider I made stalkers vs Z in the previous patch. With a small group of zealots to tank, stalkers were wonderful. Of course if your opponent is massing up hydras you would want to tech switch to reaver or charge. TvP is my only main concern. Right now marauder range has been reduced by one, slightly slowed compared to marines, and small damage point added. Stalkers are pretty agile comparatively. Stalkers with should should be able to skirmish marines and marauders across the map. If they stim, just run away. When push comes to shove then you should obviously have some sort of immortal or zealot support. My hope is that Protoss early game will be great at map control, but if T gets bio and stim he should be able to least fight for map control (or damage a greedy opponent). I'm hoping it will work out because I see potential in a stalker/immortal division of the dragoon. @DIrtybag Hope you feel better man! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
I made stalkers vs Z in the previous patch. With a small group of zealots to tank, stalkers were wonderful. Of course if your opponent is massing up hydras you would want to tech switch to reaver or charge. I mentioned this a few pagess ago. If you test any type of scenario in the unit tester, Stalkers just sucks. Vs lings, hydras w/e, regardless of whether you are in a narrow passage or just open area or not, you were always better off by just making moer zealots. You can try it for your self in the unit tester, IMO they are quite UP vs zerg. I would like them to be the unit you get as damage dealers vs double-upgraded hydras where your zealots (post patch) will be too slow. However, I think they are simply too weak for that role, thus I expect protoss to just turtle on 2 bases for quite a long with cannons + zealots + corsairs/sentinels and tech to HT's or reavers rather than trying to claim map control with stalker + zealot in the early game (which likely will be cost inefficient for the protoss player). 16 damage vs normal will probably be able to accomplish that, but then we are deviating from the BW metagame somewhat. Stalkers are pretty agile comparatively. Stalkers with should should be able to skirmish marines and marauders across the map. If they stim, just run away. When push comes to shove then you should obviously have some sort of immortal or zealot support. Stalkers always had a role vs bio though, esp along with sentinels. Its just vs mech where they can't do shit besides defending which is quite a boring role. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
ZvP I'm not sure you've explored it enough. What you should be able to do is hit a timing where Z is going for hydra tech for map control and getting his eco up. Just like in BW you can punish this with goons/stalkers if he doesn't see it coming. Zealots can get kited and sim citied. Stalkers on the other hand don't care how much hydras kite. Throw in a few zealots to tank lings, use terrain to your advantage when you can and they could find a nice use. PvT Stalkers compared to dragoons honestly make me feel less worried about warp ins. With the lower life pool and damage (vs tanks). I would be absolutely terrified if dragoons were warped into my main. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Here are the things I wanted to do but didn't have time for yet. Storm changed to BW storm. Make sure reaver splash is in line with bw. Warp prism speed rework->acceleration and acceleration, plus speed nerf (this is the main reason reavers are gods of death). Replicate BW air battles and speed relationships. Add air micro projectiles so air units can actually juke and dodge other air units. These two will obviously take even longer. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On August 31 2013 00:59 decemberscalm wrote: @Hider ZvP I'm not sure you've explored it enough. What you should be able to do is hit a timing where Z is going for hydra tech for map control and getting his eco up. Just like in BW you can punish this with goons/stalkers if he doesn't see it coming. Zealots can get kited and sim citied. Stalkers on the other hand don't care how much hydras kite. PvT Stalkers compared to dragoons honestly make me feel less worried about warp ins. With the lower life pool and damage (vs tanks). I would be absolutely terrified if dragoons were warped into my main. No i tried it alot. I literraly used zealot + stalker pressure every single game i played as protoss vs zerg. However, it was never the stalkers that were good, but simply the zealot imbalance that made stalkers appear stronger than they were.Addding in more zealots only would have been a lot better. I believ this will happen in a normal game 1) If zerg has only lings or a few hydras --> Zealot pressure. If zerg adds in just few hydras then the overall damage output of stalkers is still too low. Hydras can still get zealots quite efficient and stalkers don't deal enough damage to really matter for the zerg player. There could be a difference caused by new larva mechanism here, but getting out alot of lings as a reponse to zealot + stalker pressure isn't very hard. So if you see like 2 zealots + 3 stalkers pressure in the early game, then you get out lots of lings and easily deal with them. If you instead, see only zealot pressure you can either choose to overmake lings (not a good thing), or if you have hydra speed --> You get them out. Nevertheless, I don't see any benefit of adding stalkers into the mix. Speedlings easily beat stalkers and hydras are too good vs them as well. . 2) If zerg has lots of hydras --> Tech on 2 bases with cannons (hydras simply do too well against stalker + slow zealots). The difference between dragoons and stalkers is that dragoons could afford to be worse vs hydras + lings, because they were better vs lurkers. So they still had a decent role in the matchup. In PVZ you really don't wanna get stuck with stalkers. If you try to survive against mutalisk harass with blink stalkers, then the hydra + lurker transition becomes really really strong. I think it is a trap that you can actually survive with blink stalkers against mutalisk at the moment. While, indeed you can minimize damage, you will be way too cost inefficient in the later game without imbalanced reavers Rather, I think zealot + air openings into Psy Storm + immortals vs lurkers will be a lot stronger. But let's assume I am wrong (and stalker + zealot pressure is better than I think it is) - What is really the point of having a unit that can only do some relatively weak pressure in the early game in one matchup, and be really boring in the majority of another mathchup (TvP mech)? Throw in a few zealots to tank lings, use terrain to your advantage when you can and they could find a nice use. As I said, I tested this scenario with Danko. Even where you can get a block off with zealots vs lings, stalkers still deal too low damage. Having more zealots is still better (even if they are blocked as well behind your own zealots). | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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