EPT[A] Starbow - Page 376
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 29 2013 15:53 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: +1 on the attack delays making BW micro. 0.5 of a second might be a bit overkill though. There were only a few units in BW that had more than 0.2 seconds of delay, so its more of a superbrief pause before shooting. It is more general than just attack delay. Standing still to fire in general is what it is. BW marines stood still for their entire attack animation. SC2 marines don't in the slightest. If you stutter step 3/4'ths of their firing animation keeps going when they stutter (making it appear they are shooting their allies). Dragoons/immortals have a damage point/attack delay of 0.2 and then was almost immediately able to move again. Marines, zealots, hydras, and lings on the other hand ^^. They stood still for a tiny bit. Hydras probably had a damage point of what they have in sc2, marines a tiny bit slower. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 29 2013 16:25 Xiphias wrote: Since units will fight longer / require more micro etc I think we should also think of the map-pool. I think we should try to find/use more "open" maps which are not too chokey. I suggest "haven" and "purple storm" be added back to the map-pool. "Squares" can definitely be removed. Roadrunner should really stay and should still be good. Man, I love that map.. We can always play match point  | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
didnt they have to turn around for a split second to walk away too? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 29 2013 17:15 Izerman wrote: well.. about the bw animations.. didnt they have to turn around for a split second to walk away too? Yep. Even the dragoon who you would think would be an exception. While its relevant some BW zealot vs hydra micro ^^, shamelessly stolen from the Jangbi retirement thread (T_T) + Show Spoiler + | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
that was an awesome game btw.. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 29 2013 18:53 Izerman wrote: yeah.. unfortunately we have to dumb up the AI to get the gameplay we want :D.. that was an awesome game btw.. We are not technically dumbing down the ai. Well except for worker bouncing, that is totally dumbing down the ai. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 29 2013 19:03 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: Well, Worker bouncing is not something your average gold player will know is less efficient. People will notice it and go "cool, just like in BW" and then not think more of it. So then no harm no foul!!!! I can't think of a way we are actually dumbing down the ai. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 29 2013 19:33 decemberscalm wrote: So then no harm no foul!!!! I can't think of a way we are actually dumbing down the ai. Anyway, should we decide on the hydra vs zealot balance? I think at the moment 15 indvidualed micro'ed hydras break even vs 10 zealots in an open field. If creep spread is removed, shouldn't we just slightly buff hydras? At the moment Hydras gain 0.3 in movement speed from creep. If we add 0.15 or so to default Hydra movement speed, 10 speedlots will still be able to get hits of hydras (right), and it could take the break-even level down to 12-13 or so. What are your thoughts here? How should we preceed with balance. We could also try to run the similar test for BW and then look at all of the factors that makes Sbow differ from BW. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
What do you think guys. @Hider With BW eco, I'd rather strive for as a BW like relationship between hydra zealot. Zealots are technically a counter to hydras, keep that in mind. Also keep in mind, hydra speed pops SO much faster than zealot legs. By the time P does have legs Z could easily have gotten lurkers, muta or some other tech. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 29 2013 19:54 decemberscalm wrote: 3 different unique settings I've looked at for the idle spread. What do you think guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pi985nFQ_o&feature=youtu.be @Hider With BW eco, I'd rather strive for as a BW like relationship between hydra zealot. Zealots are technically a counter to hydras, keep that in mind. Also keep in mind, hydra speed pops SO much faster than zealot legs. By the time P does have legs Z could easily have gotten lurkers, muta or some other tech. Yes but my worries are just that teching to chargelots and mass pumping them for protoss on 2 base is relatively easy and could come before lurkers are out. In BW there are obviously small differneces in larva vs chrono boost, and we have increased lair research time as well. Further if toss isn't required to get out corsairs every game then he will simply have more stuff, so I believe that hydras need to a bit stronger vs speedlots than in BW. In Sbow I don't think you can just have 50% more hydras then the opponent goes speedlots without any dragoons. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 29 2013 20:04 Hider wrote: Yes but my worries are just that teching to chargelots and mass pumping them for protoss on 2 base is relatively easy and could come before lurkers are out. In BW there are obviously small differneces in larva vs chrono boost, and we have increased lair research time as well. Further if toss isn't required to get out corsairs every game then he will simply have more stuff, so I believe that hydras need to a bit stronger vs speedlots than in BW. So perhaps we should test 2 base speed lot and see if it does hit too fast. I mean you do bring up a point I was concerned about before. Chrono boost and nurturing swarm are tech rushers that can some times lead you to just blind siding your oponnent. We should however gather empirical evidence on timings before rushing to conclusions like buff hydras vs zealots. | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
when you really have to select each unit and press them against eachother ? that would bring a whole other concept to the playground  or maybe why not just make everything bigger scale for less surface dps for smaller units? | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
@spread: i'd opt for first or second method, making it take some time for units to be autospread will discourage deathball play as aoe will be very strong vs it. It also punishes players that purposefully clump their units. Not sure how the movement system works when a-moving spread out units, do they clump up again when frontline unit engage combat? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 29 2013 20:13 decemberscalm wrote: So perhaps we should test 2 base speed lot and see if it does hit too fast. I mean you do bring up a point I was concerned about before. Chrono boost and nurturing swarm are tech rushers that can some times lead you to just blind siding your oponnent. We should however gather empirical evidence on timings before rushing to conclusions like buff hydras vs zealots. In the Jangi game, I that that Hydra pressure simply wouldn't have worked if in Sbow if A) The break-even ratio is 1.5 hydras per speedlot, and B) If The protoss can go like 4-5 gate, 1 forge and 1 twilight, no other tech on 2 bases. We have previously tried to balance Sbow around protoss getting a relatively fast 3rd. If he can just delay that much longer, then I believe we could see a balance problem if Speedlots are so strong as they seem to appear in the current Sbow micro thing. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 29 2013 20:15 Izerman wrote: is it possible to actually make the units not clump up at all? when you really have to select each unit and press them against eachother ? that would bring a whole other concept to the playground or maybe why not just make everything bigger scale for less surface dps for smaller units? Idea number 1 basically requires a recode of the pathing system. As far as I know it is hardcoded, and if it isn't I don't posses the technical skill to change it x.x. Idea number 2 You must take a lot into consideration. The idea is to have your army spaced out, with actual space in between units. This enables a lot more micro than clumps of units are capable of. Bigger radius on all units also means they are still clumped, just the units look much larger (and quite strange if too big). There is a mod that did this for sc2 WoL, the results were quite awful x.x. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
A few things though. Can you make the movements more randomly timed so they don't move in syncronized jitters? Also, It might be nice if the spread happens with slightly slower movements to make it look more smooth. | ||
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