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changing target is not practical? what? From all people, you are the last person i'd expect to say bio being too powerful.
Retreating is in fact also good enough: matrix lasts 15 seconds and stim 10 seconds, even if you lose 3ish units while retreating, another round of units should be about ready when you engage again and medic energy is limited, another stim + matrixes is really taxing on the terran army.
IMO bio is generally such an APM intensive compostion by it self so it doesn't need various spammy abilities to make it even more micro intensive.
It gets harder when armies get bigger, successfully making mass bio not the go to strategy past 15 mins. And you can hardly say we have seen the potential of bio past midgame, none of us have played it enough and none of us are even close to being pro.
I don't see what's not to like about it.
also: say we take out matrix, then bio needs to be buffed (probably damage-wise) to stay viable in the earlygame, making it actually harder to defend as toss, because the energy of medics will last longer.
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changing target is not practical? what? From all people, you are the last person i'd expect to say bio being too powerful.
Retreating is in fact also good enough: matrix lasts 15 seconds and stim 10 seconds, even if you lose 3ish units while retreating, another round of units should be about ready when you engage again and medic energy is limited, another stim + matrixes is really taxing on the terran army.
I think with reaver nerf, then bio is probably balanced, however IMO I dislike the way it is balanced in vs protoss for two reasons.
1) Dropplay isn't particuarlyl rewarded early midgame at the moment. Its too large an investment given the fact that your much more rewarded for getting out core units + with matrix you can actually be cost effective. This may change with new econ though
2) Its more spellcaster oriented than Sc2 TvP which is pretty good untill ghosts gets out and players run around in deathballs dancing back and fourth. In Sbow you need both SV's and Ghosts and Reavers forces an earlier threat. I actually didn't consider it a problem before Foxxan brought it up, and then I began thinking about how spellcasters actually limits what I consider fun gameplay. Below are the types of gamplay I enjoy;
- The type of gameplay where the mobile army has an easy time moving around the map and the defensive player needs to postion him self well/micro well with lurkers or tanks, or
- the fast paced action where both players can army trade against each other all the time along with harass (TvZ Hots great example of that, and according to Foxxan it was somewhat similar to PvZ in BW).
The problem with overuse/heavy realiance of spellcasters to mobile armies is that it makes moving around the map difficult and reduces your mobility, which tends to reward deathball play.
I wouldn't say matrix on medis makes it more deathball'ish as you aren't heavily reliant on it as you are with hitting EMP's/shock vs HT's/reavers, however for me the issue here are twofold;
1) I don't feel like it really has counterplay for protoss. You argue that it does, but you can't really retreat when you engage with slowzealots + dragoons for instance. If the opponent matrix's mauruaders, then what do you target fire? Do you set your dragoons to target fire marines, even though they deal pretty low damage?
2) As I pointed out earlier in this post, it rewards straight up army play and since I find matrix micro kinda boring (due to no counterplay) and since it often times replaces kiting which I personally enjoy to watch more/play against and execute myself, I feel like it is counterproduce in terms of creating fun "micro". Further it also rewards straight up attacks rather than dropplay which I also enjoy quite a lot (since bio is balanced around being cost effective early mid game vs protoss in straight up battles rather than outmutltasiking them).
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i think you overestimate how hard a counter reavers are, if you are actually looking at your army while fighting, our instinct says: pull back the targeted unit, this is actually much worse and harder than killing it yourself (pulling back will not always work and most of the time still does some aoe damage), a-click the unit (maybe 2 units). I think it's merely a mind-issue that bio-users have. It's the sort of thing you think about after the game "oh shit, i forgot to do X again". I think terrans are too focused on trying 'counter' the reavers with shock as it is more intuïtive. However, if toss goes for more than 2 reavers then dropmicro to counter shock becomes less viable and now shock suddenly becomes a great ability.
A bio push that comes before the 10 minute mark usually doesn't have more than 4-5ish matrixes to cast, if he uses them all at the same time you just back off and engage again 15 seconds later. Marauders don't have concussive shells in starbow, you are not punished as hard for running away.
Btw, it's not about what 1 person likes, i know you don't like to micro as much, you like to multitask and maybe split some. I have yet to see you use a reaver. (and yeah you're probably gonna say it's a 'boring' unit so you wont use it.)
TvZ hots is actually a poor example of that imo because there is no decision-making in it, from minute 15 you just attack mindlessly with MMMWM, there is actually no strategy behind it, it's just non-stop trading until the terran miss micro's or until zerg just can't keep up anymore. Interesting gameplay is where you say 'ok, i scout X, that means i can have a favorable fight in Y minutes if i do Z and get ahead' => that is strategy, not a fucking mechanics-fest.
I also find it hard to believe that there is no counterplay possible vs matrix, otherwise bio terrans would be dominating protoss and we know that isn't the case. Nobody that tried bio-openings vs me has succeeded, i was even able to defend a quick third on zealot/stalker+ 2ish immortals against kalevi's 2base bio push. (in this particular game i retreated after the first engagement and let him hit my third while waiting for his stim and matrixes to wear off, i took his forces out quite easily the second engagement, even i was amazed at how effective it was)
2) As I pointed out earlier in this post, it rewards straight up army play and since I find matrix micro kinda boring (due to no counterplay) and since it often times replaces kiting which I personally enjoy to watch more/play against and execute myself, I feel like it is counterproduce in terms of creating fun "micro". Further it also rewards straight up attacks rather than dropplay which I also enjoy quite a lot (since bio is balanced around being cost effective early mid game vs protoss in straight up battles rather than outmutltasiking them).
nothing stops you from kiting instead of using matrix, yet you would lose the dps of that unit for a short time, it's a choice that really nobody fully understands yet (when do you pull back the unit or when do you spend the energy from your medics, because you will need enough energy to heal up your army for another stim if the fight wont be over soon, otherwise your push is basicly over). There is obviously countermicro to it: targeting a unit that stands close to it with your zealots and back off when you feel the terran overused matrix. This brings more decision-making to these battles rather than kite-micro.
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On August 29 2013 06:37 Laertes wrote:
Can we get some casted games? I really want to see some good games as vods.
No! This is a super top secret cover mod. We can't let those dirty sc2 players get their hands on our super top secret footage.
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i think you overestimate how hard a counter reavers are, if you are actually looking at your army while fighting, our instinct says: pull back the targeted unit, this is actually much worse and harder than killing it yourself (pulling back will not always work and most of the time still does some aoe damage), a-click the unit (maybe 2 units). I think it's merely a mind-issue that bio-users have. It's the sort of thing you think about after the game "oh shit, i forgot to do X again". I think terrans are too focused on trying 'counter' the reavers with shock as it is more intuïtive. However, if toss goes for more than 2 reavers then dropmicro to counter shock becomes less viable and now shock suddenly becomes a great ability.
Trust me, its a compeltely different beast than collosus in the early midgame.
A bio push that comes before the 10 minute mark usually doesn't have more than 4-5ish matrixes to cast, if he uses them all at the same time you just back off and engage again 15 seconds later. Marauders don't have concussive shells in starbow, you are not punished as hard for running away.
Well you still can't retreat with zealots, with or without concussive shell. Too many will be lost in the proces.
Good thing though that sentinels + stalkers fares extremely well vs bio. So I don't actually think it is an actual problem with current balance. But if you had a somewhat zealot heavy composition, you can't just back off as you will lose them in the proces.
But ofc you can back off after you have lost zealots, but that's not unlike how it is in Sc2 anyway.
TvZ hots is actually a poor example of that imo because there is no decision-making in it, from minute 15 you just attack mindlessly with MMMWM, there is actually no strategy behind it, it's just non-stop trading until the terran miss micro's or until zerg just can't keep up anymore. Interesting gameplay is where you say 'ok, i scout X, that means i can have a favorable fight in Y minutes if i do Z and get ahead' => that is strategy, not a fucking mechanics-fest.
Well as I said its a great example of what I, and most active Sc2 players find to be entertaining. Its very fast paced and extremley mechanically demanding. There is a reason TvZ is the most popular matchup in HOTS.
nothing stops you from kiting instead of using matrix, yet you would lose the dps of that unit for a short time, it's a choice that really nobody fully understands yet (when do you pull back the unit or when do you spend the energy from your medics, because you will need enough energy to heal up your army for another stim if the fight wont be over soon, otherwise your push is basicly over). There is obviously countermicro to it: targeting a unit that stands close to it with your zealots and back off when you feel the terran overused matrix. This brings more decision-making to these battles rather than kite-micro.
Why would you kite vs zealots when you already have matrix'ed units in front? Vs stalkers and immortals/dragoons, you can't really kite.
The problem is this; If you have only a few zealots which you use as buffer, then they will die so quickly that you dont have time to retarget. On the other hand you can retreat with most of your units, and thus the zealots are used to drain energy.
If on the other hand, you have more zealots, then you can try to retarget, but you can't really retreat, and if you attempt to retarget with slowzealots vs stimmed bio units, micro'ing is actually very easy for terran, so I really doubt that is effective. So I believe that there is some kind of equlibrium which makes it suboptimal for the protoss to get heavy zealots.
I also find it hard to believe that there is no counterplay possible vs matrix, otherwise bio terrans would be dominating protoss and we know that isn't the case.
Protoss has strong production, better mobility with sentinels/warp prism. So terran really doesn't have any stuff relative to the protoss player when he attacks.
If army values were equal though he would win every time in the early game though I think.
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TvZ hots is actually a poor example of that imo because there is no decision-making in it, from minute 15 you just attack mindlessly with MMMWM, there is actually no strategy behind it, it's just non-stop trading until the terran miss micro's or until zerg just can't keep up anymore
tvz is very fast paced, every battle you do is undetermined.
Skills matter and tactic in fights matter. How you use your units (offensive, defensive, backstab), its all there for you to show skill the entire match at the same time its a huge macro war.
Do zerg have a hard time to go on the offensive?
Do zerg have a hard time keeping up?
Is it faavor for terran atm?
Are widowmines imbalanced?
Maybe it is yes on all of them, but lets look that aside for now and protend zerg can attack equal as terran.
Zerg can keep up and it is not favored for terran
If we try to do that, the mu is very nice to watch and play
I think that is the whole point hider is trying to make
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Right now, bio vs protoss in starbow
is very similar to sc2 pvt and to me, that is a huge minus.
I have however no problem with bio adding in spellcasters or immobile units here and there.
Its the hardcounter thing that ruins it for me
Matrix>prototss backs off>reaver>terran backs off>ghost>warpprism>vikings
it becomes a stalemate from start to finish
till one big battle, and its over!
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@Hider
A post with only biased/subjective bullshit. "it's not, trust me", "you lose too much", some random comment about a unit composition we hardly see used vs bio, biased comment about 'most interesting mu of hots' (the best out of 6 shitty match ups doesn't make it less shitty) and "you lose too much, you can't retreat, NO COUNTER-MICRO POSSIBLE OMG".
I'm sorry but I can't respond in a serious way to such a shitty post.
@foxxan
about bio tvp: i think the issue is mainly that it's too unexplored rather than stale, no bio-player has yet showed he really understands the matchup. Problem is they try stuff and if it doesn't work from the first time they don't do it the next time and just sit on their ass instead.
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it becomes a stalemate from start to finish
Hard counter untis doesn't by it self force stalemales. For instance you could argue that banelings hardcounter marines like reaver hard counters bio. And then Widow mines hardcounter banelings like ghosts hardcounter reavers.
However the diffference between TvP Sbow and Sc2 HOTS is that moving out on the map is easy for both races and attacking as terran is quite easy + terran is incentivied to attack, so action does occur, and then ofc the whole micro battle is extremely awesome and back and fourth, while TvP deathball vs deathball is much more 1-second oriented.
Thus IMO it is the way the hardcounters interacts with each other that either creates stalemales or that rewards fast-paced back and fourht play.
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XiA has now finished his work. December is now working on the file. He will have it done before Friday. I will then upload it on Friday evening.
I do not intend to do any major changes to units stats or anything. The new pathing & micro & economy stuff from December will surely affect a lot of stuff. I wanna see how that feels before further changes are made. I will be in school/work the entire day + evening tomorrow, so I can not reply to any PMs until Friday. The only stuff I will change is some very flawed and unnecessary stuff, like Mutalisk healing, Warp Prism speed and some other stuff.
Just some small comments:
Matrix - Before anything happens with this spell, can we try to isolate the problem? Is it too spammable? Is it too efficient? Is there no way to punish a player who spams Matrix?
I personally find the spell quite interesting, since it acts like Stimpack in a way. Bio is generally quite slow, but with Stimpack can it temporarily become fast. Bio is generally very fragile, but with Matrix can it temporarily become quite durable.
Plus that it can help to encourage the use of Bio + Mech + Air combinations, since Matrix is efficient on Tanks etc.
Potential adjustments, if needed for balance:
- Each Medic can only use 1 Matrix. (Just as Vultures can only use 3)
- Matrix makes a unit stop or move slower?
- Matrix can only be used on mechanical units.
- Matrix lasts very shortly. 6-7 seconds.
- Maybe can it make buffs unable to affect the unit. A Vessel will be Abducted, respond with Matrix, the Abduct is canceled etc.
- Remove Matrix. (If this is absolutely crucial.)
Planetary Fortress - Exactly what is the problem? How is this different than a Zerg player putting down Spine Crawlers, or Protoss putting down Photon cannons for defence?
Potential adjustments:
- Lasts 15 seconds and has a 60 second cooldown, or something like that. (Instead of 30 seconds with 120 seconds cooldown)
Creep spread - Exactly what is the problem?
Potential adjustements:
- It gives speed bonus to the Queen only. All other Zerg ground units get a hit point regeneration when out of combat. (So Z units benefit from being microed, healed, returned. Or something) There must be some kind of effect so it is worthwile for Zerg to spread creep.
Shock - It is a form of Lockdown, but it is not just as brutal. (Gives chance for enemy remicro etc.) If that is the ultimate counter vs all units, I can make it affect mechanical units only. Ghosts vs Reaver, Carrier, Tanks, BC and strong stuff. EMP at Science Vessel vs HT, Archons and other spellcasters. Too useless vs Z?
Stalker & Immortal - They will stay in the game for now. December will modify some stuff with them.
Dragoon - If I end up with this unit in the game, it will probably be something like this:
Gateway: Zealot, Dragoon, HT and DT
Warp gate: Zealot, HT and DT
Twilight councril: Zealot speed, Warp gate upgrade.
Robotic facility: Observer, Warp Prism, Reaver and Sentinel. (Safeguard requires upgrade)
I am not sure Dragoons can be warped in, due to model/animation problems. It will probably be very strong anyways.
If Dragoons can not be warped in, Warp gate can come earlier in the tech tree. (Warp Prism has a very small warp in radius.) There will also be a difference between Warp gate and Gateway.
Dragoons might have a hard time to defend vs Mutalisks. Potential solutions:
- Mutalisks become Medium, so Dragoons and Hydralisks become better vs them. (They were Light in BW, which made Dragoons weak vs them) Archons are currently strong vs Light, but it can be modified so they
- Null wards becomes modified to become better vs them. (XiA has reworked them now.)
- Dragoons can upgrade a splash attack vs air units at Twilight tech. (Ugly solution)
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Matrix - Before anything happens with this spell, can we try to isolate the problem? Is it too spammable? Is it too efficient? Is there no way to punish a player who spams Matrix?
I personally find the spell quite interesting, since it acts like Stimpack in a way. Bio is generally quite slow, but with Stimpack can it temporarily become fast. Bio is generally very fragile, but with Matrix can it temporarily become quite durable.
Plus that it can help to encourage the use of Bio + Mech + Air combinations, since Matrix is efficient on Tanks etc.
I don't think there is a huge issue with this ability (given how you intend to balance TvP bio). Its just doesn't reward the type of micro I enjoy.
Null wards becomes modified to become better vs them. (XiA has reworked them now.)
I think this is the best one. Also we can consider to add + damage vs air modifier to it (also I am assuming Sentinels get moved to robo).
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Was Matrix in BW an exciting spell?
I don't think there is a huge issue with this ability (given how you intend to balance TvP bio).
?
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Big shout-out to the people working on starbow btw, don't think they get enough credit!
matrix in BW was used reactively on frontline tanks when zealots got there. Not sure if that's 'exciting'. I don't think every little thing needs to be exciting, rather the combination of many little things done right becomes exciting imo.
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Hard counter untis doesn't by it self force stalemales. For instance you could argue that banelings hardcounter marines like reaver hard counters bio. And then Widow mines hardcounter banelings like ghosts hardcounter reavers.
I dont look at it as baneling hardcounter marines,
widowmines hardcounter banelings
Its far from a hardcounter.
Reaver>bio
ghost>reaver
That is a hardcounter,
however, with warpprism ghost doesnt hardcounter anymore
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^in smaller battles as explained before (targetmicro) reavers don't hardcounter bio. I think reduced warp prism speed will help a lot in anticipating these shots.
I think the biggest problem players are facing atm is that it's harder to roam the map once a speedprism with reavers is out, a slower warp prism will probably make it easier to deal with them (shock only costs 25 energy, so you can spam it). This doesn't mean that bio can catch the warp prism easy! if that were the case then this would promote deathball play (because the warp prism would then never be allowed to go far from the rest of your forces).
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On August 29 2013 07:25 Kabel wrote:Was Matrix in BW an exciting spell? Show nested quote +I don't think there is a huge issue with this ability (given how you intend to balance TvP bio). ?
Dec argued that it was the fact that it was seen more rarely which made it more fun to see.
I think in general I enjoy it is more fun when it has tactical usages rather than having a large impact on battle micro. For instance moving forward with matrix'ed tanks to reclaim a new postion is quite awesome. Im not quite sure how to promote that type of play though.
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On August 29 2013 07:31 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Hard counter untis doesn't by it self force stalemales. For instance you could argue that banelings hardcounter marines like reaver hard counters bio. And then Widow mines hardcounter banelings like ghosts hardcounter reavers. I dont look at it as baneling hardcounter marines, widowmines hardcounter banelings Its far from a hardcounter. Reaver>bio ghost>reaver That is a hardcounter, however, with warpprism ghost doesnt hardcounter anymore
Hmm, I look at it in this way;
- With a bit of mismicro, some banelings can be really cost effective against marines.
- With a bit of mismicro, some widow marines can be really cost effective against banelings.
- With a bit of mismicro some reavers can be really cost effective against bio (you can split agianst reavers/move back the targetted unit).
- With good micro, ghosts can neutralize reavers.
I honestly don't see the realy difference here?
Planetary Fortress - Exactly what is the problem? How is this different than a Zerg player putting down Spine Crawlers, or Protoss putting down Photon cannons for defence?
Previously having the planetary was a necceasry evil given the fact that you had to take bases so quickly. But now that we are changing econ, I don't think it is a neccesity any more, so we can just get rid of it entirely.
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On August 29 2013 07:33 SolidSMD wrote:
^in smaller battles as explained before (targetmicro) reavers don't hardcounter bio. I think reduced warp prism speed will help a lot in anticipating these shots.
Yeeeeeeessssssssss.
Especially with automatic spread now.
A squad of bio has a pretty good shot of beating a toss squad supported by a single reaver.
The main killer that makes it so risky is the warp prism mixed in.
What if we make the warp prism like a shuttle in that it has to be micro'ed properly to be effective.
A shuttle had deaacceleration and acceleration so you wanted to keep it moving if you were planning on picking it up again just after a drop. Otherwise the reaver and shuttle were both vulnerable to quick troops.
After playing with tons of different kinds of bio vs P early fights, it really does feel like matrix is just boring. Without it the battle is pretty careful on both sides, especially on the pre position of their units. It feels like a get out of jail free cards.
Consider matrix in BW. When it was used to save units it had that clutch feeling. Science vessels were much more rare, and competed energy cost for irradiate and emp.
I had more fun fighting battles on both sides of this fight without matrix involved.
@Planetary Fortress
The reason why it is so boring is because you stack it on top of the CC and has great range. Zero thought on position.
Spine crawlers? You can place them in the mineral line, but then your gas line is exposed and it doesn't protect that hatchery from the front. Place them at the choke and they can drop your line.
Turrets? Same deal. You really need two to protect both sides of the mineral line, but then you risk getting them dps'ed down.
The primary disadvantage of static D is their lack of mobility. Having big range and prime positioning 100% of the time negates this issue.
It is also why I don't like queens very much, but they are much more fragile and way less anti harassment +killing them hurts larva rate.
edit: With more BW like maps, PF isn't necessary. You concentrate defense at your ramp or choke, and with more bases protecting every base from drops is a huge drain on your eco. Predicting drops and intercepting will always be better.
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#kabel
Was Matrix in BW an exciting spell?
Hmmm....not really
However, it came very late and it was a decision for the scienvessel
(Matrix, irridate or emp)
It was a big cost for him.
edit: same thing applies a bit to this cheap matrix. You can use it instead of suppoused support units.
You see lurkers, thats fine u have medics with matrix. Lots of matrix.
I actually think bio with matrix can beat alot of units now that "isnt suppoused" to happen.
Could i be dead wrong? ofcourse, but it gives 150hp, for 12seconds, and those seconds arenough to engage a lurker siege psoition.
Ghost, Shock
Right now, what stops a terran to make this unit more?
If zerg goes ultras, terran can make ghost
Protoss goes hightemplar, terran can make ghost. I truly believe this is a very big potential imbalance atm.
I also think ghost might be viable to start to build from the opening. Why not? Zerg goes lurkers, well you have ghost and bio, you dont need tanks anymore.
Creep spread - Exactly what is the problem?
I think i have mentioned what the problem is three times already.
Its that it makes the zerg units faster, which ruins the new micro relationship we will have which in turn makes the opponent chanceless.
I dont know the movement speed of units now, but zerglings can engage a bio force much easier probably,
if hydra becomes faster than speedzealot, that initself makes protoss not able to engage at all.
You dont see a problem with this?
Lurker/ling against bio/support. On creep, Much less 'interaction', just use speed and win.
Planetary Fortress
The biggest problem. SCVS can massrepair > makes it very hard to beat this cost effecient even if terran do not have any unit nearby. Makes it for terran not much of a decision to defend at that place,
It blocks way to much for its cost>SCVS repair.
Compared to mass staticdefence, which costs alot of money and cant be repaired which initself makes it viable to
beat these staticdefences cost effecient, which makes it a decision for zerg to move units there or not.
Terran doesnt have to do anything other than repair
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Without it the battle is pretty careful on both sides, especially on the pre position of their units.
Can you elaborate a bit more on this? I personally rarely feel that it has made out-of-battle play that different?
EDIT: Sorry misread your post.
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EPT
