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They did battle zealot vs hydralisk before criticalmass and before storm.
It wasnt anything like "he has many zealots, oh gosh i need lurkers"
The critical mass makes it so that protoss needs aoe
True that hydras should benefit more from critical mass than zealots. However, can't the hydra + lurker combo accomplish the same job? Like hydra + lurkers scales better than zealots + dragoons --> Forces storm (?)
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On August 28 2013 22:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +They did battle zealot vs hydralisk before criticalmass and before storm.
It wasnt anything like "he has many zealots, oh gosh i need lurkers"
The critical mass makes it so that protoss needs aoe True that hydras should benefit more from critical mass than zealots. However, can't the hydra + lurker combo accomplish the same job? Like hydra + lurkers scales better than zealots + dragoons --> Forces storm (?)
not sure i follow
if he add lurkers you need dragoons.
When the hydras get critical you need aoe
Iam not sure u can fix critical mass? I for sure would know how to if it worked
Also, everyunit supports eachother so its not only x>y unit
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On August 28 2013 22:49 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 22:24 Hider wrote:They did battle zealot vs hydralisk before criticalmass and before storm.
It wasnt anything like "he has many zealots, oh gosh i need lurkers"
The critical mass makes it so that protoss needs aoe True that hydras should benefit more from critical mass than zealots. However, can't the hydra + lurker combo accomplish the same job? Like hydra + lurkers scales better than zealots + dragoons --> Forces storm (?) not sure i follow if he add lurkers you need dragoons. When the hydras get critical you need aoe Iam not sure u can fix critical mass? I for sure would know how to if it worked Also, everyunit supports eachother so its not only x>y unit
So the way I see it. Dragoons and zealots are just tier 1. They should be okay'ish against hydras + lurkers in small numbers, but lose to them when unit sizes get larger --> which forces AOE
You argue that enough hydras in them selves (without lurker support) should force AOE, but I don't think that's really neccesary to get to the desired type of gameplay. So I believe hydras can be weaker if lurkers are stronger vs speedlots.
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On August 28 2013 23:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 22:49 Foxxan wrote:On August 28 2013 22:24 Hider wrote:They did battle zealot vs hydralisk before criticalmass and before storm.
It wasnt anything like "he has many zealots, oh gosh i need lurkers"
The critical mass makes it so that protoss needs aoe True that hydras should benefit more from critical mass than zealots. However, can't the hydra + lurker combo accomplish the same job? Like hydra + lurkers scales better than zealots + dragoons --> Forces storm (?) not sure i follow if he add lurkers you need dragoons. When the hydras get critical you need aoe Iam not sure u can fix critical mass? I for sure would know how to if it worked Also, everyunit supports eachother so its not only x>y unit So the way I see it. Dragoons and zealots are just tier 1. They should be okay'ish against hydras + lurkers in small numbers, but lose to them when unit sizes get larger --> which forces AOE You argue that enough hydras in them selves (without lurker support) should force AOE, but I don't think that's really neccesary to get to the desired type of gameplay. So I believe hydras can be weaker if lurkers are stronger vs speedlots.
Yes, in small numbers dragoons and zealot can fight lurk/hydra maybe even cost effecient iam not sure
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But to even be able to fight lurk/hydra in bigger numbers, i would have no problem with
Anyway, how to fix this?
How do you fix criticalmass for range units against melee?
If pure zealots, dragoons can fight everything from zerg. Would it be fair? I mean, can zerg fight back?
With storm and reaver zerg is chanceless so i take it we should redesign these units?
With ensnare, zerg wins easy. Redesign ensnare?
Then what about bio terran, protoss have no chance?
Or we buff the zealot and dragoon instead of nerfing hydras. So now protoss dont need aoe against bio either?
What about archon, to powerful?
What if protoss adds lots of carriers and pure dragoons. Beatable for zerg?
Or if terran adds bio and mech now against toss. Even beatable now?
Pure marines + tanks would be so good.
It could be fun to get a relationship like the hydra and lurker against dragoon and zealot
But dont you think this would get problematic?
btw: i didnt argue that mass hydras should force aoe, i just stated how things were
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Anyway, how to fix this?
Hmm lets just try to move speed hydras movement speed a bit and remove movement speed buff from creep. That should make speed hydras a bit better vs speedlots.
Hydras will automatically scale better than zealots when numbers get big as zealots get blocked more easily.
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Keep in mind, hydras are amazing vs immortals, stalkers, archons, and even Toss air.
They only have a temporary advantage vs zealots when they have speed out and the Toss player doesn't.
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what do u mean december?
They also have an advantage when they become critical right?
For fun:
i just beat 4zealots with 6hydras speed vs speed/range
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On August 29 2013 00:50 Foxxan wrote:
what do u mean december?
They also have an advantage when they become critical right?
For fun:
i just beat 4zealots with 6hydras speed vs speed/range
X.x. SOOOO many factors play into it.
Terrain, sim city, defenders advantage via closer reinforcements, position etc.
But yeah, small numbers of speed lots should generally beat small numbers of hydras. When you get SO many hydras (like how tons of marines counter speedlings quite easily) then hydras are quite effective. All of the hydra are shooting at a time while only the forward flank of zealots are able to attack. Flanks help out of course.
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On August 29 2013 00:39 decemberscalm wrote:
Keep in mind, hydras are amazing vs immortals, stalkers, archons, and even Toss air.
They only have a temporary advantage vs zealots when they have speed out and the Toss player doesn't.
I think the point is that at the moment they are at a too large disadvantage in the 10 speedlot vs 10 speedhydra matchup. The disadvantage is so significant that any type of micro really doens't matter as you get so badly raped regardless. Can you try it for your self in the unit tester?
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On August 29 2013 01:04 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 00:39 decemberscalm wrote:
Keep in mind, hydras are amazing vs immortals, stalkers, archons, and even Toss air.
They only have a temporary advantage vs zealots when they have speed out and the Toss player doesn't. I think the point is that at the moment they are at a too large disadvantage in the 10 speedlot vs 10 speedhydra matchup. The disadvantage is so significant that any type of micro really doens't matter as you get so badly raped regardless. Can you try it for your self in the unit tester?
Its 20supply vs 10
1000 minerals vs 750
0 gas vs 250gas
So much to take into considderation, mineralwise hydra can build almost 6more
Gas, not as important in this stage as zerg as for protoss
Supplywise, protoss need more pylons than zerg needs overlords
Its not as bad as u think it is, you will cry at hydras as protoss. Trust me 
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On August 29 2013 01:04 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 00:39 decemberscalm wrote:
Keep in mind, hydras are amazing vs immortals, stalkers, archons, and even Toss air.
They only have a temporary advantage vs zealots when they have speed out and the Toss player doesn't. I think the point is that at the moment they are at a too large disadvantage in the 10 speedlot vs 10 speedhydra matchup. The disadvantage is so significant that any type of micro really doens't matter as you get so badly raped regardless. Can you try it for your self in the unit tester?
Slight unit advantages = big differences in results in just a straight up fight.
We have tested scenarios where adding 1-2 hydras resulted in a 6 zealot vs 8 hydra scenario results in crazy things like losing almost no hydras.
But really context is absolutely more important than anything in the tester.
In an actual game if you had 10 speedlots and I only had 10 speed hydras I would simply run away.
Before this would be impossible, zealots would charge and get free hits.
With new micro rework you have to physically catch the hydras to finish them off.
The same is true vice versa. If I had 16 hydra (which would destroy the 10 zealots no problem if I'm not mistaken) you could simply run with your higher speed.
Context!!!!
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On August 29 2013 01:21 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 01:04 Hider wrote:On August 29 2013 00:39 decemberscalm wrote:
Keep in mind, hydras are amazing vs immortals, stalkers, archons, and even Toss air.
They only have a temporary advantage vs zealots when they have speed out and the Toss player doesn't. I think the point is that at the moment they are at a too large disadvantage in the 10 speedlot vs 10 speedhydra matchup. The disadvantage is so significant that any type of micro really doens't matter as you get so badly raped regardless. Can you try it for your self in the unit tester? Slight unit advantages = big differences in results in just a straight up fight. We have tested scenarios where adding 1-2 hydras resulted in a 6 zealot vs 8 hydra scenario results in crazy things like losing almost no hydras. But really context is absolutely more important than anything in the tester. In an actual game if you had 10 speedlots and I only had 10 speed hydras I would simply run away. Before this would be impossible, zealots would charge and get free hits. With new micro rework you have to physically catch the hydras to finish them off. The same is true vice versa. If I had 16 hydra (which would destroy the 10 zealots no problem if I'm not mistaken) you could simply run with your higher speed. Context!!!!
Ok, so what numbers of decently micro'ed speedhydras should break even against 10 a-moved speedlots?
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On August 29 2013 01:26 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 01:21 decemberscalm wrote:On August 29 2013 01:04 Hider wrote:On August 29 2013 00:39 decemberscalm wrote:
Keep in mind, hydras are amazing vs immortals, stalkers, archons, and even Toss air.
They only have a temporary advantage vs zealots when they have speed out and the Toss player doesn't. I think the point is that at the moment they are at a too large disadvantage in the 10 speedlot vs 10 speedhydra matchup. The disadvantage is so significant that any type of micro really doens't matter as you get so badly raped regardless. Can you try it for your self in the unit tester? Slight unit advantages = big differences in results in just a straight up fight. We have tested scenarios where adding 1-2 hydras resulted in a 6 zealot vs 8 hydra scenario results in crazy things like losing almost no hydras. But really context is absolutely more important than anything in the tester. In an actual game if you had 10 speedlots and I only had 10 speed hydras I would simply run away. Before this would be impossible, zealots would charge and get free hits. With new micro rework you have to physically catch the hydras to finish them off. The same is true vice versa. If I had 16 hydra (which would destroy the 10 zealots no problem if I'm not mistaken) you could simply run with your higher speed. Context!!!! Ok, so what numbers of speedhydras should break even against 10 speedlots?
I'm off to school now for 4 hours, if you are still up by then I'd love to test that with you.
Just remember, it is all too easy to oversimplify issues by using a unit tester. Game context matters a lot more, and game context is a hundred times more complicated.
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On August 29 2013 01:31 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 01:26 Hider wrote:On August 29 2013 01:21 decemberscalm wrote:On August 29 2013 01:04 Hider wrote:On August 29 2013 00:39 decemberscalm wrote:
Keep in mind, hydras are amazing vs immortals, stalkers, archons, and even Toss air.
They only have a temporary advantage vs zealots when they have speed out and the Toss player doesn't. I think the point is that at the moment they are at a too large disadvantage in the 10 speedlot vs 10 speedhydra matchup. The disadvantage is so significant that any type of micro really doens't matter as you get so badly raped regardless. Can you try it for your self in the unit tester? Slight unit advantages = big differences in results in just a straight up fight. We have tested scenarios where adding 1-2 hydras resulted in a 6 zealot vs 8 hydra scenario results in crazy things like losing almost no hydras. But really context is absolutely more important than anything in the tester. In an actual game if you had 10 speedlots and I only had 10 speed hydras I would simply run away. Before this would be impossible, zealots would charge and get free hits. With new micro rework you have to physically catch the hydras to finish them off. The same is true vice versa. If I had 16 hydra (which would destroy the 10 zealots no problem if I'm not mistaken) you could simply run with your higher speed. Context!!!! Ok, so what numbers of speedhydras should break even against 10 speedlots? I'm off to school now for 4 hours, if you are still up by then I'd love to test that with you. Just remember, it is all too easy to oversimplify issues by using a unit tester. Game context matters a lot more, and game context is a hundred times more complicated.
Why specifically does context matter here? Which variables doesn't the unit tester take into account?
Economy postpatch is likely to favor protoss a bit if they put pressure on the zerg player, which means that hydralisks shouldn't do too poorly against equally cost units.
Obviously this is an open area, but we can do similar tests for more narrow passages. But in a real game, you also have less time to babysit the hydralisks, thus I am more inclined to believe that hydras will do worse in real games than in unit tester vs speedlots. So my question is, what numbers is the optimal one for the break-even? Should 13 doubleupgraded hydralisks break even vs 10 speedlots?
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I second foxxan on most stuff. Also am in favor of more BW-like and i'm against Gossen letting someone else take over.
Didn't know there are imbalances with matrix? Can anyone explain the imbalance to me?
About zealot/hydra discussion:
I agree that creep movement increase should be less drastic and hydra's should be able to micro vs zealots mid map.
Something else about that, I actually haven't seen any zerg try baneling/hydra vs mass zealot in the earlygame.
Reasoning why this would make a huge deal compared to the styles we have seen (ling/hydra or ling/baneling).
Ling/hydra obviously lacks the damage output compared to zealots.
Ling/baneling has the following problem: earlygame you don't have speedbanes, so if the toss sees the blings he can split his zealots against incoming banelings a lot and that makes the banelings too cost-ineffective, toss needs to screw up to take heavy hits. Also note production, pure ling/bling needs more production facilities to get the same army-cost, heavy lingproduction is extremely larvae-intensive, in the later stages of the game this is less noticeable as macrohatches are a smaller investment relative to the economy.
Now for hydra/bling: less larvae-intensive! And biggest factor: blings don't need to chase zealots, hydra's take out lone zealots that try to snipe banelings (or soak baneling hits), this obviously becomes much harder for toss to engage (need to attack with most of your army and your zealots need to be decently spread out).
Can someone experiment with this? I'm a bit short on time atm.
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Something else about that, I actually haven't seen any zerg try baneling/hydra vs mass zealot in the earlygame.
I think baneling nest costs 150/50 (or something like that). Doesn't really feel like that great of an investment IMO.
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I think its cost is justified once toss has 7+ zealots.
Also something else again:
Stalker is obsolete in pvz, a toss that goes for mass zealot/corsair/archon/ht doesn't lack anything and has a great mobile army, I see no reason why a buffed stalker would even be desirable.
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Didn't know there are imbalances with matrix? Can anyone explain the imbalance to me?
The way i see it, its a to good defensive ability with a relatively low price.
Even if the medic wouldnt be able to heal afterwards i believe it would still be good to use.
Right now, the medic for 50 energy casts a 150hp shield which lasts 12sec, thats a hp of a marauder, or 3marines.
Its like the armee gets bigger
In the opening for example, equal armee vs equal armee matrix gives a very big advantage
In theory, i believe medic/marine/marauder versus zergling/Lurker with matrix wins, and without it lose.
I tried with dec equal armee vs equal armee, around 20supply versus protoss.
With matrix, protoss lost very hard. We tried without matrix, and now protoss could win. It became a micro battle, it was fun btw
However, i cant proof it is imba. Most things are still theory. And not enough testing to be certain
Balance aside, matrix gone encourage more gameplay. Instead of seeing bio armee with matrix and running home, he may fight.
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I personally think its an ability that allows bio to be great with great control, but with any sick micro you can still not deal cost-effectively with reavers if the toss can micro as well. For the PvT match up i think it's a great tool to let bio terran get ahead slightly in econ, because the toss needs to rush for reavers/ht => this justifies the cost to transition into mech or airplay (or combination).
Vs zerg i haven't seen any imbalances (haven't seen that many zvt's lately), you have a replay of that?
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On August 29 2013 04:35 SolidSMD wrote:
I personally think its an ability that allows bio to be great with great control, but with any sick micro you can still not deal cost-effectively with reavers if the toss can micro as well. For the PvT match up i think it's a great tool to let bio terran get ahead slightly in econ, because the toss needs to rush for reavers/ht => this justifies the cost to transition into mech or airplay (or combination).
Vs zerg i haven't seen any imbalances (haven't seen that many zvt's lately), you have a replay of that?
probelm is that there really is no counter micro protoss can do vs the matrix as changing target or retreating isn't really practical.
IMO bio is generally such an APM intensive compostion by it self so it doesn't need various spammy abilities to make it even more micro intensive.
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EPT
