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On August 29 2013 07:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Without it the battle is pretty careful on both sides, especially on the pre position of their units. Can you elaborate a bit more on this? I personally rarely feel that it has made out-of-battle play that different?
Concave, trying to get a better angle on their troops etc.
I think it was dirtybag who did a bunch of tvp bio vs early toss with me. Outcomes were pretty wildly different depending on if we were able to get our units in a better position before the start of the fight.
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On August 29 2013 07:37 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 07:25 Kabel wrote:Was Matrix in BW an exciting spell? I don't think there is a huge issue with this ability (given how you intend to balance TvP bio). ? Dec argued that it was the fact that it was seen more rarely which made it more fun to see. I think in general I enjoy it is more fun when it has tactical usages rather than having a large impact on battle micro. For instance moving forward with matrix'ed tanks to reclaim a new postion is quite awesome. Im not quite sure how to promote that type of play though.
Using matrix on a tank when zealots get close does have a big impact on a battle. Using matrix on a tank to move it forward is by no means 'exciting'.
Matrix is very useful to use a dropship before you load up and fly away, i've seen you do this a couple times and it paid off. That is a great tactical usage right there. Just like in BW you can also matrix a tank to move it forward, use it on vessels,... etc.
On August 29 2013 07:39 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 07:31 Foxxan wrote:Hard counter untis doesn't by it self force stalemales. For instance you could argue that banelings hardcounter marines like reaver hard counters bio. And then Widow mines hardcounter banelings like ghosts hardcounter reavers. I dont look at it as baneling hardcounter marines, widowmines hardcounter banelings Its far from a hardcounter. Reaver>bio ghost>reaver That is a hardcounter, however, with warpprism ghost doesnt hardcounter anymore Hmm, I look at it in this way; - With a bit of mismicro, some banelings can be really cost effective against marines. - With a bit of mismicro, some widow marines can be really cost effective against banelings. - With a bit of mismicro some reavers can be really cost effective against bio (you can split agianst reavers/move back the targetted unit). - With good micro, ghosts can neutralize reavers. I honestly don't see the realy difference here?
uhm, widow mine does not require any micro and almost always pays for itself. If it kills 1 fucking baneling and zergling it already paid for itself. One of the worst balanced units blizzard ever made i think.
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On August 29 2013 07:51 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 07:37 Hider wrote:On August 29 2013 07:25 Kabel wrote:Was Matrix in BW an exciting spell? I don't think there is a huge issue with this ability (given how you intend to balance TvP bio). ? Dec argued that it was the fact that it was seen more rarely which made it more fun to see. I think in general I enjoy it is more fun when it has tactical usages rather than having a large impact on battle micro. For instance moving forward with matrix'ed tanks to reclaim a new postion is quite awesome. Im not quite sure how to promote that type of play though. Using matrix on a tank when zealots get close does have a big impact on a battle. Using matrix on a tank to move it forward is by no means 'exciting'. Matrix is very useful to use a dropship before you load up and fly away, i've seen you do this a couple times and it paid off. That is a great tactical usage right there. Just like in BW you can also matrix a tank to move it forward, use it on vessels,... etc. Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 07:39 Hider wrote:On August 29 2013 07:31 Foxxan wrote:Hard counter untis doesn't by it self force stalemales. For instance you could argue that banelings hardcounter marines like reaver hard counters bio. And then Widow mines hardcounter banelings like ghosts hardcounter reavers. I dont look at it as baneling hardcounter marines, widowmines hardcounter banelings Its far from a hardcounter. Reaver>bio ghost>reaver That is a hardcounter, however, with warpprism ghost doesnt hardcounter anymore Hmm, I look at it in this way; - With a bit of mismicro, some banelings can be really cost effective against marines. - With a bit of mismicro, some widow marines can be really cost effective against banelings. - With a bit of mismicro some reavers can be really cost effective against bio (you can split agianst reavers/move back the targetted unit). - With good micro, ghosts can neutralize reavers. I honestly don't see the realy difference here? uhm, widow mine does not require any micro and almost always pays for itself. If it kills 1 fucking baneling and zergling it already paid for itself. One of the worst balanced units blizzard ever made i think.
Please stop responding to my posts. Your way too biased.
Thanks in advance.
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If you want to speak like that, the spider mine is even worse. It is free, unmicroable, and can kill lots of stuff.
I think that the widow mine is one of the better SC2 units (even though that does not say that much).
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On August 29 2013 07:55 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 07:51 SolidSMD wrote:On August 29 2013 07:37 Hider wrote:On August 29 2013 07:25 Kabel wrote:Was Matrix in BW an exciting spell? I don't think there is a huge issue with this ability (given how you intend to balance TvP bio). ? Dec argued that it was the fact that it was seen more rarely which made it more fun to see. I think in general I enjoy it is more fun when it has tactical usages rather than having a large impact on battle micro. For instance moving forward with matrix'ed tanks to reclaim a new postion is quite awesome. Im not quite sure how to promote that type of play though. Using matrix on a tank when zealots get close does have a big impact on a battle. Using matrix on a tank to move it forward is by no means 'exciting'. Matrix is very useful to use a dropship before you load up and fly away, i've seen you do this a couple times and it paid off. That is a great tactical usage right there. Just like in BW you can also matrix a tank to move it forward, use it on vessels,... etc. On August 29 2013 07:39 Hider wrote:On August 29 2013 07:31 Foxxan wrote:Hard counter untis doesn't by it self force stalemales. For instance you could argue that banelings hardcounter marines like reaver hard counters bio. And then Widow mines hardcounter banelings like ghosts hardcounter reavers. I dont look at it as baneling hardcounter marines, widowmines hardcounter banelings Its far from a hardcounter. Reaver>bio ghost>reaver That is a hardcounter, however, with warpprism ghost doesnt hardcounter anymore Hmm, I look at it in this way; - With a bit of mismicro, some banelings can be really cost effective against marines. - With a bit of mismicro, some widow marines can be really cost effective against banelings. - With a bit of mismicro some reavers can be really cost effective against bio (you can split agianst reavers/move back the targetted unit). - With good micro, ghosts can neutralize reavers. I honestly don't see the realy difference here? uhm, widow mine does not require any micro and almost always pays for itself. If it kills 1 fucking baneling and zergling it already paid for itself. One of the worst balanced units blizzard ever made i think. Please stop responding to my posts.
please make better posts, so i don't have to respond.
I haven't said anything biased after the end of our stalker/dragoon 'discussion'.
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Widow Mine actually does require micro otherwise you are merely praying for a great connection.
If you don't target fire with a widow mine it might keep resetting its attack when another target comes into view.
Pro's land those amazing 10 baneling widow shots themselves, not luck (well some times luck).
In addition, widow mine actually creates one of the closest MU's to BW TvP.
You've got spread out widow mines and terran keeps layers of small marine groups spread out to avoid all dieng to banes at the same time.
Z runs in with all his units at one time, hopefully in a flank. Mutas that are fire support and snipe medivacs are like dragoons in how they pull back after losing their big meathsield of lings bane.
Plus the fights these cause tend to last MUCH longer than SC2 fights due to constant reinforcements and how spread out the bio is (and how quickly the zerg stream of reinforcements are).
It may not have as many logistics in this scenario, but it sure is hell nice to see a player actually use multiple groups of units in the same fight.
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On August 29 2013 07:58 decemberscalm wrote:
Widow Mine actually does require micro otherwise you are merely praying for a great connection.
If you don't target fire with a widow mine it might keep resetting its attack when another target comes into view.
Pro's land those amazing 10 baneling widow shots themselves, not luck (well some times luck).
In addition, widow mine actually creates one of the closest MU's to BW TvP.
You've got spread out widow mines and terran keeps layers of small marine groups spread out to avoid all dieng to banes at the same time.
Z runs in with all his units at one time, hopefully in a flank. Mutas that are fire support and snipe medivacs are like dragoons in how they pull back after losing their big meathsield of lings bane.
Plus the fights these cause tend to last MUCH longer than SC2 fights due to constant reinforcements and how spread out the bio is (and how quickly the zerg stream of reinforcements are).
It may not have as many logistics in this scenario, but it sure is hell nice to see a player actually use multiple groups of units in the same fight.
Yes it has a really really high skill cap. Maybe its harder to play against to use, but when you add bio micro on top of that, 4M is really really hard to use optimally.
I think Starbow has a goal of increasing anti-deathball play and lots of small back and fourth battles. TvZ HOTS certianly does an absolutely brilliant job of that, which is why I enjoy the matchup so much.
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I can agree that amount of action and the need for zerg to micro really well are positive things for the matchup. Sadly it feels like 2 guys fighting each other where terran has a club and hits on zerg with it. Meanwhile zerg tries to grab his club with spikes (tier 3) but terran keeps hitting on zerg's hand whenever he tries to grab his club, so he ends up just trying to block the hits and hope the terran accidentally drops the club. I think this is a nice analogy for hots zvt.
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On August 29 2013 08:08 SolidSMD wrote:
I can agree that amount of action and the need for zerg to micro really well are positive things for the matchup. Sadly it feels like 2 guys fighting each other where terran has a club and hits on zerg with it. Meanwhile zerg tries to grab his club (tier 3) but terran keeps hitting on zerg's hand whenever he tries to grab his club, so he ends up just trying to block the hits and hope the terran accidentally drops the club. I think this is a nice analogy for hots zvt.
Also sounds like KT style TvZ BW.
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Personally i love the widowmine.
And i play mostly zerg, and the race i wanna meat is terran as bio/mine
It adds so much gameplay, a 'simple' unit.
Both can show skill all game long, and u use your units in a lot more dynamic and tactical ways.
All for the unit widowmine
#hider
Terran>zerg in sc2 hots.
Especially when terran has around 15widowmines and 100marines
#dec
Terrans macro is also very very big, he makes:
20marines
3widowmines
2medivacs
every round, its the new zerg macro
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On August 29 2013 08:10 Foxxan wrote:
Personally i love the widowmine.
And i play mostly zerg, and the race i wanna meat is terran as bio/mine
It adds so much gameplay, a 'simple' unit.
Both can show skill all game long, and u use your units in a lot more dynamic and tactical ways.
All for the unit widowmine
#hider
Terran>zerg in sc2 hots.
Especially when terran has around 15widowmines and 100marines
Too bad the sc2 engine pathing and eco is so boring.
Maps are filled with chokes.
Melee ai benefits almost nothing from micro etc.
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On August 29 2013 08:09 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 08:08 SolidSMD wrote:
I can agree that amount of action and the need for zerg to micro really well are positive things for the matchup. Sadly it feels like 2 guys fighting each other where terran has a club and hits on zerg with it. Meanwhile zerg tries to grab his club (tier 3) but terran keeps hitting on zerg's hand whenever he tries to grab his club, so he ends up just trying to block the hits and hope the terran accidentally drops the club. I think this is a nice analogy for hots zvt. Also sounds like KT style TvZ BW.
difference is that zerg could actually get to tier 3 without dieing  , i cannot remember the last time i saw a hots tvz where zerg finally got his tier 3 out. (unless dieing right after)
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On August 29 2013 08:11 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 08:10 Foxxan wrote:
Personally i love the widowmine.
And i play mostly zerg, and the race i wanna meat is terran as bio/mine
It adds so much gameplay, a 'simple' unit.
Both can show skill all game long, and u use your units in a lot more dynamic and tactical ways.
All for the unit widowmine
#hider
Terran>zerg in sc2 hots.
Especially when terran has around 15widowmines and 100marines Too bad the sc2 engine pathing and eco is so boring. Maps are filled with chokes. Melee ai benefits almost nothing from micro etc.
Ye, but tvz is actually a very nice matchup if i look past the balance part and some faults here and there. Its also fixable
however, the thing that ruins sc2 most for me is protoss
Unitcomposition matchups entirely(there are exception, please dont go there)
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On August 29 2013 08:12 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 08:09 decemberscalm wrote:On August 29 2013 08:08 SolidSMD wrote:
I can agree that amount of action and the need for zerg to micro really well are positive things for the matchup. Sadly it feels like 2 guys fighting each other where terran has a club and hits on zerg with it. Meanwhile zerg tries to grab his club (tier 3) but terran keeps hitting on zerg's hand whenever he tries to grab his club, so he ends up just trying to block the hits and hope the terran accidentally drops the club. I think this is a nice analogy for hots zvt. Also sounds like KT style TvZ BW. difference is that zerg could actually get to tier 3 without dieing , i cannot remember the last time i saw a hots tvz where zerg finally got his tier 3 out. (unless dieing right after)
Doesn't make the widow mine a bad unit design wise. Balance is a whole other issue.
Alas I think we have strayed WAYYYYY too off base for what we should be discussing to improve starbow ^^.
What we can all agree on, despite our various views on the method how, is that Starbow should be the most fun Starcraft it could possibly be .
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yes! But i do think there needs to be more playtesting and less quick conclusions. (and solid reasoning/proof when asking for a buff/removal of a unit/ability/...)
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On August 29 2013 08:21 SolidSMD wrote:
yes! But i do think there needs to be more playtesting and less quick conclusions. (and solid reasoning/proof when asking for a buff/removal of a unit/ability/...)
Fair enough! There is a reason matrix, immortal/stalker are not getting changed yet. Especially with eco and pathing being implemented.
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Woah, i look away for half an hour and suddenly 32 messages in starbow. Sorry to be late for the party.
Which regards to Kabel's post here is my comment.
Planetary Fortress. Okay you really need to be careful here. I do not share Dec's view that terran do not need the planetary. We risk digging us into a huge hole if we leave terran without any ground static defence, and just hope the maps will fix it. I am not saying it needs to be the planetary fortress but i do think that terrans needs to have something.
A thing we could consider is adding some sort of passive defensive ability to the fortress besides it's attack. For example in SC2 you can load SCVs inside command centers and planetary fortresses. It is literally useless, but i still think we might get some use out of it with some adjustments. Say that you had the option instead of activating the cannon, to load every SCV in the mineral line inside the fortress. Now it needs to be some dedicated harass to make any treat to the base, and it minimizes damage until the cavalry arrives.
Thus the planetary would always have some defensive use, even when the cannon is not ready, which also means we can make it slightly more exclusive with a higher CD.
About shock: Have anyone tried using it? I have and it sucked. Yes, yes gold league micro and what not but i really don't think it is a problem. And if it the case, i would rather have an Anti-massive clause on it than no mechanical. That would make more sense and maybe allow for some buffs(like its missile speed...)
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What I would give for an actual built in formation system. WC3 had it!!! T_T.
I fixed all the bugs with the pathing that I can tell. Idle spread will seem awkward at first, but how much it helps game play is kind of insane.
I am honestly convinced right now the pathing and how units stand still to melee/shoot for half a second IS the reason why BW fights felt better to both play with and watch. Unlimited Unit Selection has its effects, but not even close to these first two.
I'm going with a formation diameter of 14. A little bit smaller than how huge it used to be. Nothing we haven't had before. I'll explain it during a vod and ensure everyone is aware of how it works and what to keep in mind because of it.
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On August 29 2013 10:53 decemberscalm wrote:
What I would give for an actual built in formation system. WC3 had it!!! T_T.
I fixed all the bugs with the pathing that I can tell. Idle spread will seem awkward at first, but how much it helps game play is kind of insane.
I am honestly convinced right now the pathing and how units stand still to melee/shoot for half a second IS the reason why BW fights felt better to both play with and watch. Unlimited Unit Selection has its effects, but not even close to these first two.
I'm going with a formation diameter of 14. A little bit smaller than how huge it used to be. Nothing we haven't had before. I'll explain it during a vod and ensure everyone is aware of how it works and what to keep in mind because of it.
Which advantages do you see of the new pathing?
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On August 29 2013 11:31 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 10:53 decemberscalm wrote:
What I would give for an actual built in formation system. WC3 had it!!! T_T.
I fixed all the bugs with the pathing that I can tell. Idle spread will seem awkward at first, but how much it helps game play is kind of insane.
I am honestly convinced right now the pathing and how units stand still to melee/shoot for half a second IS the reason why BW fights felt better to both play with and watch. Unlimited Unit Selection has its effects, but not even close to these first two.
I'm going with a formation diameter of 14. A little bit smaller than how huge it used to be. Nothing we haven't had before. I'll explain it during a vod and ensure everyone is aware of how it works and what to keep in mind because of it. Which advantages do you see of the new pathing?
Less DPS Density->longer fights->more time for micro
Unnferfed splash damage->also longer fights
(please note I consider reaver unnerffed o.o)
With formations being spread out by default you see the enemy with maybe 1 or 2 units that will clash at first. This gives you plenty of time to maybe trade a few blows, back or, or prepare to engage.
With how formations will move across the map you can also try to catch parts of a formation.
Think of kabels example with hydras and some defilers. You might actually be able to pick off a deflier with that formation being more spread out.
All units balled= it might as well be 1 unit of various sizes
In combination with stand and shoot mechanic, manually controlling your melee units for a concave is MUCH more effective as we've seen in the tester. The opposing force can also rearange their formation to match theirs.
We've seen more rome total war sort of repositioning of armies.
It also gives people more control over their formation.
In BW you COULD bunch up all your units. But the default after moving anywhere it was spread out.
In sc2 you cannot retain formations. After doing a split you cannot keep it. You can only pre split at a position, or panic split.
And if you want to bunch up your units? Click inside your unit group. SOOO easy. SO much control.
More control over your army <3
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EPT
