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On August 31 2013 22:37 Foxxan wrote:
#hider
Ok, i did some fast testing in the unit tester.
I agree with you, the scout is actually a powerbeast. I took for granted the ground damage was only 8 as in bw, how stupid of me
so i apologise about that
I did some light test 4scout vs 4viking, the scouts win.
Though, the vikings have a critical mass since they have aoe. Why do they have aoe btw?
But it takes time to get that so its not very relevevant right now
viking and scout have 3.25 movementspeed
banshee have 3.35
both these speeds feels a bit to high, i dont know what to do about this
I think its the intention that vikings should be used to counter mutalisks so it needs splash and it also needs to be able to kite.
Scout really doesn't need that fast movement speed though. If blink stalkers are too weak vs tank dropships + banshees then I would wait with redeucing movement speed of the banshee and instead look at other potential tweaks;
- Make dropship pick up an upgrade at starport tech lab.
- Reduce duration of cloack
- Reduce upgrade time of blink a bit.
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i think the problem is that scouts double-counter SV's, both with their normal attack and with aoe-feedbackmissile that's relatively easy to spam. Also some speedvalues should be adjusted on air-units. (groundunits should probably be at least as fast as the airunits because the airunits can abuse terrain). A stronger stalker should help as well, although this might have side-effects.
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- Make dropship pick up an upgrade at starport tech lab.
- Reduce duration of cloack
- Reduce upgrade time of blink a bit.
Why do banshees need that fast movementspeed but not scouts?
With a nerf to scout. They will be bad in combat. They will melt vs goliaths.
So alot of things will change.
I said before to catch a banshee with cloak you need
1)blink stalkers
2) upgraded speed of observer
Now to make scouts, they dont serve the purpose they do now, so right now its dangerous.
Also, with cloak on banshee, they can not only escape from stalkers but also against scouts.
Protoss do not have that much gas on2base.
Reducing the duratition of cloak doesnt do anything in this case.
Also dropship have that speed boost with a base movement of 3.25.
How do a scout catch a dropship ever? Even with this speed they have now?Terran simple use the boost to escape = no chance to catch it.
Also, mixing in goliaths with dropships and going heavy tank drop melts scouts (if they get nerfed) and stalkers.
Right now i feel we need way more tests after we nerf scout ground damage.
I also feel banshee harass and dropship harass will be viable alot with scout nerf to ground.
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I think its the intention that vikings should be used to counter mutalisks so it needs splash and it also needs to be able to kite
Ye i know.
I asked the question because we already have. Kiting what excactly? Like heavy units purely carriers and bcs?
1) sv irridate
2) marines
3) goliaths
If bioplay goes starport, they for sure would get sv instead of vikings because
1) they need sv against everything zerg has (almost)
2) vikings are expensive and only good vs air
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With this new patch, the economy is now BW. (Mining time, gas & mineral ratio, 1500 minerals per patch)
The difference is worker build time.
It takes 17 seconds to produce a worker in BW. Each larva is spawned every 15 second.
IF we mimic this, will the saturation be too fast, and have negative effects on the economy, because of Inject larva, Calldown SCV and Chrono boost?
An alternative is to make each worker take 19 seconds to produce & larvas spawn every 17 seconds. So the saturation time is slightly slower, but is more evened out depending on how much players use macro mechanics.
I will calculate on it.
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Would be very glad if we calculated zerg larva a bit more. I feel they were nerfed very much in the opening because of it.
Just some feeling i have.
sc2: one larva, every 15sec
starbow: one larva, every 18sec
=
sc2: every 60 second, four larva
starbow: every 72second, four larva
=
sc2: every 120sec, eight larva
starbow: every 142sec, eight larva
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sc2: inject, 4additional larva every 40th seconds
starbow: inject, instead of 18seconds it turns into 12seconds each time a larva spawns
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inject = huge nerf
larva speed = nerf = slows down zerg especially in the opening
I feel this is a issue.
When i played broodwar for example, i had no problem at all vs 2gate zealots.
In starbow however, its a huge problem. Not to surive but
1) get your drones up
2) need to use larva for lings alot more
Since u have less larva and zealots come faster with chrono(or if protoss chrono probes)
I feel we have some issues here with all these things.
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On August 31 2013 23:18 Kabel wrote:
With this new patch, the economy is now BW. (Mining time, gas & mineral ratio, 1500 minerals per patch)
The difference is worker build time.
It takes 17 seconds to produce a worker in BW. Each larva is spawned every 15 second.
IF we mimic this, will the saturation be too fast, and have negative effects on the economy, because of Inject larva, Calldown SCV and Chrono boost?
An alternative is to make each worker take 19 seconds to produce & larvas spawn every 17 seconds. So the saturation time is slightly slower, but is more evened out depending on how much players use macro mechanics.
I will calculate on it.
I already prefer to use my nexus energy to chrono out tech instead of econ (after the first minutes of the game), because bases saturate too fast and with the current balance it's not that easy to expand a lot. Not sure what to do about this.
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On August 31 2013 23:18 Kabel wrote:
With this new patch, the economy is now BW. (Mining time, gas & mineral ratio, 1500 minerals per patch)
The difference is worker build time.
It takes 17 seconds to produce a worker in BW. Each larva is spawned every 15 second.
IF we mimic this, will the saturation be too fast, and have negative effects on the economy, because of Inject larva, Calldown SCV and Chrono boost?
An alternative is to make each worker take 19 seconds to produce & larvas spawn every 17 seconds. So the saturation time is slightly slower, but is more evened out depending on how much players use macro mechanics.
I will calculate on it.
I think unless you go CC first, you don't really wanna get OC too fast (CC first gives you excessive minerals quite early in the game). So scv call down doesn't really have a significant effect on saturation I believe.
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Reducing the duratition of cloak doesnt do anything in this case.
My idea was that a lower duration of cloack would make detection less neccesary as banshee's wouldn't be able to be cloacked all the time.
Why do banshees need that fast movementspeed but not scouts?
If preventive units are better than offensive harass-oriented units, then I believe gameplay will be quite stale in the early and early midgame. But ofc there is a thin line between making harass-oriented units a very strong viable option and making them OP.
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I know there are some other issues, and various tweaks are suggested, but I will not mess too much with other stuff until the fundamentals are at place:
- pathing & micro system
- economy
(Those two factors determines a lot for the game)
The worker build time is a tricky thing, due to macro mechanics. I have looked at different number solutions, but it is hard to know what will work and not.
I consider to just go full BW mode: worker BT 17 seconds. Larva spawn every 15. (Inject still increases that by 50%)
It will probably not be perfect in Starbow, but by trying it in the game, we can determine how saturation feels, how well the larva rate feels vs P and T, and then tweak it according to that. Just back to BW basics.
Otherwise I can just let it be as it is: larva spawn every 18 second. Worker BT 22 seconds.
Or just go for a middle value, that I think might work: Worker BT 19 seconds, Larva spawn every 17 second. Then we just work from here.
Any thoughts?
I will upload the new patch in ca 1 hour. I am not sure exactly what has changed, because December worked on it. I have only changed the economy to BW, and adjusted the Scout.
Here is what he wrote to me:
-spider mines don't collide with units
-vulture damage fixed
-tank hp down to 150
-guardian range
-reaper hp
Also he has created a new Vulture micro. He also mentioned some bug fixes etc.
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#kabel
what are you logic behind scout movement speed nerf?
everything else seems fine
edit: i would love bw economy full. 17worker time.
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On August 31 2013 23:28 Foxxan wrote:
Would be very glad if we calculated zerg larva a bit more. I feel they were nerfed very much in the opening because of it.
Just some feeling i have.
sc2: one larva, every 15sec
starbow: one larva, every 18sec
=
sc2: every 60 second, four larva
starbow: every 72second, four larva
=
sc2: every 120sec, eight larva
starbow: every 142sec, eight larva
--------------
sc2: inject, 4additional larva every 40th seconds
starbow: inject, instead of 18seconds it turns into 12seconds each time a larva spawns
---
inject = huge nerf
larva speed = nerf = slows down zerg especially in the opening
I feel this is a issue.
When i played broodwar for example, i had no problem at all vs 2gate zealots.
In starbow however, its a huge problem. Not to surive but
1) get your drones up
2) need to use larva for lings alot more
Since u have less larva and zealots come faster with chrono(or if protoss chrono probes)
I feel we have some issues here with all these things.
I did calculate the inject larve vs chorno adn calldown SCV a while ago. Inject is MUCH more effective than chrono and calldown SCV atm. Kabel is right, however. IF we change the worker build time then we have to recalculate a lot of stuff. That was an important factor for my result. I agree with Kabel here. Since Starbow has "eco-fixers", having longer build time by default is a good thing.
@Scout.
We had a long air speed balance according to catching dropships / warp prisms. We did not phantom that scout would be a good opener vs terran at the time.
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On September 01 2013 00:47 Kabel wrote:Scout seems to be an urgent problem, so I will nerf speed from 3.25 to 3. Attack dmg vs ground from 10+6 vs armored, to just 10. (They did 8 in BW, but they were also almost completely useless.) I know there are some other issues, and various tweaks are suggested, but I will not mess too much with other stuff until the fundamentals are at place: - pathing & micro system - economy (Those two factors determines a lot for the game) The worker build time is a tricky thing, due to macro mechanics. I have looked at different number solutions, but it is hard to know what will work and not. I consider to just go full BW mode: worker BT 17 seconds. Larva spawn every 15. (Inject still increases that by 50%) It will probably not be perfect in Starbow, but by trying it in the game, we can determine how saturation feels, how well the larva rate feels vs P and T, and then tweak it according to that. Just back to BW basics. Otherwise I can just let it be as it is: larva spawn every 18 second. Worker BT 22 seconds. Or just go for a middle value, that I think might work: Worker BT 19 seconds, Larva spawn every 17 second. Then we just work from here.
Any thoughts?I will upload the new patch in ca 1 hour. I am not sure exactly what has changed, because December worked on it. I have only changed the economy to BW, and adjusted the Scout. Here is what he wrote to me: Show nested quote +-spider mines don't collide with units
-vulture damage fixed
-tank hp down to 150
-guardian range
-reaper hp Also he has created a new Vulture micro. He also mentioned some bug fixes etc.
Sounds good I think.
But what about reaper speed and slowlings on creep?
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I did calculate the inject larve vs chorno adn calldown SCV a while ago. Inject is MUCH more effective than chrono and calldown SCV atm. Kabel is right, however. IF we change the worker build time then we have to recalculate a lot of stuff. That was an important factor for my result. I agree with Kabel here. Since Starbow has "eco-fixers", having longer build time by default is a good thing
if i remember correctly you did not do a 100% correct calculation
for example: you didnt calculate that protoss have chronoboost way earlier than terran and it comes for free.
Have u calculated that zerg can not make workers and units at the same time?
In sc2, when terran upgrades his orbital command for 150minerals, he can now calldown a free mule (only energy cost) that mines equal to 6scvs for 40seconds.
Now in starbow he calls down a scv which costs 50minerals.
How can this be balanced?
The mule is balanced in the opening
#kabel
Scout movement speed nerfed.
Logic behind this please? How can shout ever catch a banshee now?
With cloak? Observer runs in what 2.5 or something. With speed upgtade he runs in 3.19, still slower than banshee..
A dropship runs in 3.25 movement speed and he have speedbost.
I have stated these things already before
Damage to ground is a very good change. it was still 8 in bw, dunno why its 10here since its cheaper here.
If now protooss have to go stalkers, i have stated some logic behind this to.
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Sounds good I think.
But what about reaper speed and slowlings on creep?
December did not implement it. I will not touch it either atm.
If we revert Reapers to normal speed value, they work much better in TvP and TvT. Right now they seem quite bad, since they are barely faster than a Stalker. But they are broken in TvZ with that speed. If we buff only Zerglings to gain a speed boost on creep, that will affect how Zerglings deal vs early Zealots + Stalkers + Marines etc.
Scout movement speed nerfed.
Logic behind this please? How can shout ever catch a banshee now?
Edit: Never mind, I don´t touch anything until the economy and micro/pathing stuff is on place. Its easier that way.
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If we buff only Zerglings to gain a speed boost on creep, that will affect how Zerglings deal vs early Zealots + Stalkers + Marines etc.
It will just make slowlings on creep as fast as they always were, while slower off creep. Thus, it will be the same interaction as we previously had with slowlings vs zealots/marines earlygame. Is that really a problem? Or at least is that a problem that is bigger than making a unit completely useless? (it has no utility vs zerg as well if it can't kite zerglings off creep)
Regarding the movement speed of scouts. I would also be careful about reducing that without giving toss a compensation buff (hint: stalkers).
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On September 01 2013 01:03 Foxxan wrote:
if i remember correctly you did not do a 100% correct calculation
for example: you didnt calculate that protoss have chronoboost way earlier than terran and it comes for free.
Have u calculated that zerg can not make workers and units at the same time?
In sc2, when terran upgrades his orbital command for 150minerals, he can now calldown a free mule (only energy cost) that mines equal to 6scvs for 40seconds.
Now in starbow he calls down a scv which costs 50minerals.
How can this be balanced?
The mule is balanced in the opening
How would one go about and calculate what one player MIGHT make? My calculations were simply this: How much does the eco get boosted by the abilities.
In this regard, zerg should be on top since they have to chose which units to make (like you pointed out), terran should be # 2 since OC comes after protoss can start chronoboosting, and protoss should be #3, but not by much. If you look at those calculations that is exactly the case at this moment. I don't think it will be any more if we change worker build time and hence that would lead to changes in the eco-mechanincs.
I was surprised at how effective call-down SCV was in terms of eco-boost myself as I thought chrono boost would be much better.
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How would one go about and calculate what one player MIGHT make?
To me it sounds that inject is the worse by far.
My calculations were simply this: How much does the eco get boosted by the abilities.
.
Excactly this. So with this calculation zerg actually goes pure drones? no units?
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Here are the numbers (was easier to find than I thought.)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=322#6424
How would you like it to look?
IF zerg only makes workers and inject then they have: 13.4 sec "effective build time" per worker (they do not build faster but you can build more at once...)
IF protoss only chronoboost nexuses they have 17.5 sec "effective build time" per worker.
IF Terran only call down SCV they have 14.63 sec "effective build time" per worker.
Maybe zerg should have even less?
Also remeber that zerg spawn larva at 18 sec and not 22 sec so they are "better" at making workers by default as well.
I think these numbers looks decent tbh when you take all the rest into consideration. With ""all the rest" I am talking about that you cannot get queen unitll you have a pool. That you cannot make workers AND figthing units at the same time with zerg, that you need OC to calldown SCV and that you can chrono from the get-go. Also that you might want to chorno other buildings from time to time and calldown supply / scan with OC. The numbers have to be viewed in light of all these things.
It is impossible to factor in all these things in a calculation because there is no set B.O for each match up that dictates how to spend energy.
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#xiphias
i dont know excactly how i want it, i still like 17sec build time of worker.
Though if we talk about present, right now i feel zerg suffers alot in the opening phase because of the
one larva/18sec
instead of one larva/15sec
+ when queens pop up
in starbow
reduces it to one larva/12 sec?
in sc2, 4larva/40sec
It is a very big difference here imo.
Ever since i started to try zerg i felt they were much weaker
and i have played quite alot of zerg over the past 10years
however, iam not a fan of 4larva/40sec method they use.
but base one larva/15sec and i dont know it still suffers because of chronoboost from protoss.
Even against terran if terran goes more agressive opening u will need to build units from the smaller amounts of larva u have.
To me it feels zerg suffers the most. Iam certain they are the worst in the opening 90%. By quite a big margin.
I cant really speak after all races settle with their economy boost how things are.
and xiphias i dont know why but i would love to have 17sec worker time, Feels to me it speeds the game up for the better.
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EPT
