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On July 12 2012 07:25 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:20 Kabel wrote:
I agree. Titanium Armor upgrade for Firebats will be axed. They become almost invulnerable now :s
Another thing. What was the reasoning to reducing the range from Marines, Stalkers and even Mutalisks etc, by 1?
Since you can select an unlimited number of units and they generally find smart tight positions next to each other, ranged units become very strong. A huge group of Hydras, Marines or Stalkers can reach the critical mass where they are unstoppable versus melee units, since all your ranged units can shoot over each other and kill the melee units that engages them.
This has lead to scenarios where players can win by buildings only mass Stalkers, mass Marines or mass Hydras. They only have to worry of AoE. There is no reason to back away with your enourmous group of hydras, marines or stalkers if zealots or zerglings engages. You can just stand your ground and kill them with ease.
Is it even a problem? Well, it depends. Generally, I like that ranged units are vulnerable to melee. You need to protect them, micro them in different directions to spread out the melee units. Or have your own melee units that can protect your ranged units.
So by reducing the range, it makes them less efficent in big bulks. I also reduced mutalisks range, since Stalkers + marines now have a harder time chasing them with their low range.
Whats your thoughts about this?
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On July 12 2012 07:20 Kabel wrote:I agree. Titanium Armor upgrade for Firebats will be axed. They become almost invulnerable now :s Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 06:48 pzea469 wrote: I still can't build stalkers until the dark shrine is built. When I hover my mouse over the stalker on the gateway, it even says that it requires a dark shrine. So sad. What version do you have? It requires only cybernetics core for me. Are you on EU or NA? Cause both servers are supposed to have the same version. There are still bugs in the game, but I have set a goal for myself. Before the end of July this MOD shall be "complete", aka all errors are fixed, all units and spells have been decided and everything is as polished as it can be. But the balance work will still continue..
I'm on NA. Playing on the CD Quarantine. I wonder if maybe it's just me that has that error or others. Is that the most updated version?
Damn, by the end of this month huh? Then tell me what I can do to convince you to give Protoss users Goons instead of Stalkers. As a Protoss-ONLY player, Dragoons warm my heart and I like controlling them much more than stalkers. The way you had Goons in the older versions was much better.
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On July 12 2012 07:37 Kabel wrote:
Whats your thoughts about this?
Could you please revert them back? It feels awkward with 2 range Mutalisks. Just revert all the ranges back. I never had any problems with mass Marines etc. There never was a problem really?
Is it even a problem? Well, it depends. Generally, I like that ranged units are vulnerable to melee. You need to protect them, micro them in different directions to spread out the melee units. Or have your own melee units that can protect your ranged units.
They are already vulnerable to melee! Just remember some units are going to be better in a choke point while others will be better off in the open. You get surrounded by melee units? Well you're going to die of course. It's just we need to play on better maps such as Tal'darim. It's great for large scale battles. CD Quarantine has been really strong for Terran. In fact. Range units feel like crap now. Especially Mutalisks.
If you could PLEASE, put them back that would be much appreciated.
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Idk, I like the range so far, but there might be some units where it doesn't fit so well. I'm not a zerg player so maybe mutas for example need a 1 range buff, but as far as the basic units go, it SEEMS fine from what I've been able to test. Zealots feel less useless vs MM kiting, and range engages feel fine as well. I'm a Toss player only though, so I'm only seeing it from my perspective.
Dakota, do many units feel odd to you with the range decrease, or mostly just mutas?
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On July 12 2012 07:51 pzea469 wrote:
Dakota, do many units feel odd to you with the range decrease, or mostly just mutas?
Mainly Marines and Stalkers are pretty awkward to handle and even Hydralisks. Because the Firebat almost out ranges Marines, Stalkers and Hydralisks. Ok that's out of hand. Of course, Zealots could get a little speed buff to deal with the kiting. Mutalisks of course, feel even more useless now. xD
I just don't see the reasoning behind the range reduction and I disagree with it. Someone should be rewarded if they out micro a Zealot with two Marines. Not our problem. xD
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lol it's easy to out micro a unit that can't micro back  . Well maybe the range reduction should be removed then. We should just test it out. From watching replays and and playing matches though, I haven't noticed any awkwardness yet. Stalkers/Goons felt fine to me. I haven't played as much as you though. I say, let's test it.
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On July 12 2012 08:08 pzea469 wrote:
let's test it.
Ok. I'm on NA right now.
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On July 12 2012 07:37 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:25 MNdakota wrote:On July 12 2012 07:20 Kabel wrote:
I agree. Titanium Armor upgrade for Firebats will be axed. They become almost invulnerable now :s
Another thing. What was the reasoning to reducing the range from Marines, Stalkers and even Mutalisks etc, by 1? Since you can select an unlimited number of units and they generally find smart tight positions next to each other, ranged units become very strong. A huge group of Hydras, Marines or Stalkers can reach the critical mass where they are unstoppable versus melee units, since all your ranged units can shoot over each other and kill the melee units that engages them. This has lead to scenarios where players can win by buildings only mass Stalkers, mass Marines or mass Hydras. They only have to worry of AoE. There is no reason to back away with your enourmous group of hydras, marines or stalkers if zealots or zerglings engages. You can just stand your ground and kill them with ease. Is it even a problem? Well, it depends. Generally, I like that ranged units are vulnerable to melee. You need to protect them, micro them in different directions to spread out the melee units. Or have your own melee units that can protect your ranged units. So by reducing the range, it makes them less efficent in big bulks. I also reduced mutalisks range, since Stalkers + marines now have a harder time chasing them with their low range. Whats your thoughts about this?
If you engage with only melee units, you deserve to lose. By the time that they reach that critical mass of ranged units, you should have your AoE unit out. (Reaver, Tank, Lurker) As you said, those units are the counter to large numbers of ranged units.
You do need to split your units against melee units, otherwise the melee units win. However, this only happens early in the game.
I agree with dakota here, the range nerf wasn't really necessary.
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On July 12 2012 08:10 Monochromatic wrote:
I agree with dakota here, the range nerf wasn't really necessary.
Thanks!
For example. I just don't build Marines for no reason. I build them because they're ranged and they're effective at distances of course. The advantage to a ranged unit to a melee is of course, they can shoot from a distance. And I can tell you right now that 4 range is not very far. In fact, a Firebat which is supposed to be a 2 ranged melee unit (sort of) almost out ranges a fully ranged unit such as the Marine. Hell for gods sake, it out ranged a Mutalisk! And damn it do they suck now.
So what I am trying to say is that it doesn't feel right and the range is literally too short for a ranged unit and I don't like it. xD
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How about range upgrades? Really stabilizes the early game and gives more early strategic options.
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On July 12 2012 08:24 0neder wrote:
How about range upgrades? Really stabilizes the early game and gives more early strategic options.
Those are already in play.
Despite the range being unnecessary. Does anyone have some replays that I can watch? 
Let's get them posted!
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Can build stalkers now, but still can't warp them until I have a dark shrine.
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On July 12 2012 07:37 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:25 MNdakota wrote:On July 12 2012 07:20 Kabel wrote:
I agree. Titanium Armor upgrade for Firebats will be axed. They become almost invulnerable now :s
Another thing. What was the reasoning to reducing the range from Marines, Stalkers and even Mutalisks etc, by 1? Since you can select an unlimited number of units and they generally find smart tight positions next to each other, ranged units become very strong. A huge group of Hydras, Marines or Stalkers can reach the critical mass where they are unstoppable versus melee units, since all your ranged units can shoot over each other and kill the melee units that engages them. This has lead to scenarios where players can win by buildings only mass Stalkers, mass Marines or mass Hydras. They only have to worry of AoE. There is no reason to back away with your enourmous group of hydras, marines or stalkers if zealots or zerglings engages. You can just stand your ground and kill them with ease. Is it even a problem? Well, it depends. Generally, I like that ranged units are vulnerable to melee. You need to protect them, micro them in different directions to spread out the melee units. Or have your own melee units that can protect your ranged units. So by reducing the range, it makes them less efficent in big bulks. I also reduced mutalisks range, since Stalkers + marines now have a harder time chasing them with their low range. Whats your thoughts about this?
Not a good idea IMO. Remember, this was the case in BW. Mass hydralisks only need to worry about splash. It's not poor game design to have a ranged army. Same with marine medic. Melee units are stronger early on and weaker later. Range units are stronger later and weaker earlier. Why make range units weak early and mediocre late? This nerf will also make them more susceptible to splash damage since they have to get in closer to attack. I feel like you've made their weakness to splash even bigger. Remember what the roach range increase from 3 to 4 did. [33% increase]. You are talking about similar decrease in a lot of other units.
Especially the mutalisk nerf. Going from range 3 to 2 is a 33% decrease in range. Wayyy too big.
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In BW most units had shorter range, or same as in sc2 with upgrade (hydras, rines, upgraded goons/stalkers). Clumped less, and anyway were able to reach that critical mass, even witchout smart shoting, didnt they? Im not big fan of reducing range of mutas to 2 either (and firebats range and armor is probably too high too. Its 3 armor with upgrade, isnt it?), but they are still very powerfull (and for sure much closer to be balanced than 4 range mutas).
Roach range vs buffed mainly cause of forcefields i belive.
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--- Discussion of the day: ---
Should the Phoenix or the Corsair be in the game?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jvsxp.jpg)
The corsair: A classic splash damage unit. But right now a critical mass of Corsairs melts mutalisks/scourges in seconds. Even better here than in BW. (Since they are so smart >.<) Air combat ends in seconds.
Also, I like the Anti gravity - ability. It sees far more use than the Disruption Web did in BW. But the Anti gravity ability doesn´t really fit with the splash attack of the Corsairs.. They can´t snipe targets. It takes forever to kill a queen, siege tank or anything with more than 100 HP.
The Phoenix: A swift elegant unit that is more useful in all match ups. It´s ability to lift up and snipe the strong tanks, Reavers and chase the shuttles/dropships etc makes it a more versatile unit. Also, air combats don´t end in seconds. Instead, the Phoenix must harass the mutalisk flock and pick it down bit by bit by hit and run attacks. The only bad thing is that in it´s current way of working, Scourges will never hit them.
So...
Which of the units will lead to most intersting and creative use?
Which of the two units will fit best?
Can they be redesigned in a way that makes them even "better" for the game?
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Leave corsair, just nerf % of dmg in radius and maybe size of aoe. They are killing overlords fast enough, and thats not truth that splash and antigravity doesnt work well together. Every lifted units get hit by splash, and that keeps them efective even with half of corsairs are lifting Imho.
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Also i think BW scourges were slightly faster than corsairs (it took them the whole map to get to them though). Plus i i think flanking with scourge Muta should solve some problems regarding the critical mass.
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Scourges, corsairs, mutas, queens, slow vultures, wraiths, speed scouts speed was exactly the same. Scourges acceleration was better (but as we know, units with acceleration acted weird in BW :D).
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Mhm, maybe it was because of the turns you had to make with the corsairs, so the scourges cut corners? I dont know...
Well in the end i dont think mass corsair is a problem, just dont build air and go for spores, or am i wrong? There should be plenty of counterattack possibilities in such a situation. Unless you already lost so much it doesnt even matter anymore.
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EPT
). But i think they were fun games nonetheless.
