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Unit test map "Starbow Tester" Updated!
Ideas
Unfortunately, to apply this idea, we must take a step back, but I am very confident in this:
Zealot (80 shield, 80 hp = 160) with upgrade, is as before: when activated, increased movement speed for 5 or 8 sec, reusable after a cooldown.
When this ability is activated, zealot shield are restored. Userfull for make as tank, or escape...
Stalker (70 shield, 70 hp = 140). When blink is used, restored stalker shield. Userfull for attack or escape.
If is necessary, reduced range of blink from 8 to 6.
I wanted to increase shields spontaneously, to increase the effectiveness of the shield (in order to justify their high cost).
Now an army a-click move, it will be less effective than an armed microed.
Upgrades are now more important for mid-late game, without worrying of early game that remains almost unchanged.
If is too strong, make shield are partially regenerated by blink and charge (from 100% to 50%)
I think this is a pleasure to play and to watch... sometimes it takes imagination.
Thoughts?
Gl hf
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Thank you for the games today.
Some things to discuss:
Reaver... Too good to be true?
Vessel... Too good to be true?
Bio in PvT... Too bad to be true?
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On June 30 2013 07:14 Kabel wrote:
Thank you for the games today.
Some things to discuss:
Reaver... Too good to be true?
Vessel... Too good to be true?
Bio in PvT... Too bad to be true?
no
no
and no
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On June 30 2013 07:14 Kabel wrote:
Thank you for the games today.
Some things to discuss:
Reaver... Too good to be true?
Vessel... Too good to be true?
Bio in PvT... Too bad to be true?
I still think bio in tvt is much much worse than bio tvp (theoretical view). Turret rings are likely more efficient than cannon rings, and mass tanks are easier to be cost efficient with than controlling reavers and HT's.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 30 2013 07:14 Kabel wrote:
Thank you for the games today.
Some things to discuss:
Reaver... Too good to be true?
Vessel... Too good to be true?
Bio in PvT... Too bad to be true?
no
no
no
even if reavers and vessels too good - buff their counters, not nerf them
also - isnt that a bug that reaver can miss and deal no dmg from lowground?
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On June 30 2013 10:15 Fen1kz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 07:14 Kabel wrote:
Thank you for the games today.
Some things to discuss:
Reaver... Too good to be true?
Vessel... Too good to be true?
Bio in PvT... Too bad to be true? no no no even if reavers and vessels too good - buff their counters, not nerf them also - isnt that a bug that reaver can miss and deal no dmg from lowground?
It can?
I was under the impression the scarab was basically its own unit so being fired from the low ground won't matter.
Is this confirmed?
PS: Xiphias thinks reapers should be classified as hovering ^^
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I went ahead and updated the wiki. Hopefully most stats and abilities will be correct now. Unless I managed to screw it up O_o
If anyone sees something that is wrong or missing, feel free to click the edit button and fix it.
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Nice wikia update, great job!
About bio being viable in TvT and PvT:
I think we should focus less on making bio viable in every match up. It is, ofc, viable in the same way dt's are viable. You can catch your opponent off guard and kill him, and we should especially be very careful of nerfing units just because they counter bio too hard. It always seems to have unintended consequences.
We should rather give bio the tools it need to be able to deal with different situations (like the new Ghost ability) and let the players explore the possibilities of bio usage. It is, and should be, extremely difficult to play bio in TvP and TvT. If bio is always worse than mech in TvZ as well, then we should look at buffing it.
This is why I really like the G-4 charges we had on the reaper. It was really hard to use, but if you were good, you could actually pick off tanks and reavers with them. Godlike micro was required ofc. I would like to see them back, even if they were rarely used.
But most importantly, let's not nerf any unit just because it counters bio too hard (like the reaver....). The reaver has two clear disadvantages for its power. It cannot shoot up, and it is slow as a queen off of creep (even slower?)
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@Xiphias
Yeah I agree. We can not "force" a playstyle in the game. Like make Bio available at any cost.
If it has the tools available, then the metagame, the maps, and ofc the build orders invented by players can help to contribute to it. (Hiders bio+tanks beat Fens Protoss in a 25 minute game.)
I have barely seen the new Ghost ability used yet. Fen has said it is an useless spell. Danko thinks it will be OP. Maybe the truth is in between?
The reason I removed Reaper mines is due to the similarity to Spider mines. Place a bomb near the enemy - hope they don't move away - wait a couple of seconds - explode. Ofc its not identical to the Spider mine, just a similar concept. But I shall never say never. Maybe it was a misstake to remove it.
Reapers have not been used that much in combats either, with the new splash upgrade. Mostly in the beginning. Maybe they are redundant in combat? Or maybe they could be quite good vs clumped up Zealots, for example?
I do like the fact that early Reapers sees a bit of play. They can do some nice early damage, which is fun to watch. Not sure if they are still too strong, especially in TvZ.
Ps. They do not detonate Spider mines
@GamanNO
Thank you!
@Vessels
I am concerned that it is too "easy" to use Nerve Jammer to shut down for example Lurkers?
100 energy, place a ring that covers ca 5 Lurkers, attack into them and kill them.
If the Zerg is not aware the Lurkers will be dead in 2-3 seconds?
Just as Banelings can kill a bunch of Marines in 2-3 seconds if T is not aware?
Of as Lurkers can kill a bunch of Marines in 2-3 seconds? 
Maybe it is fair ^^
But generally, we try to avoid extreme scenarios like this?
A split second misstake and your army is dead?
What do you Terran and Zerg players think?
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What is left to do with Starbow?
The big patch has been out for two weeks.
One week ago I wrote this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=302#6033
Larger stuff I think still must be fixed:
- Sentinel (Still needs a solid starting spell/ability)
- Mass Vessel in TvZ. (I consider to give Devourer a passive ability. Every time it attacks a unit with energy, it drains 20-30 energy and converts it into life. This would make them quite good vs mass Vessels since they can survive Irradiate as long as they fight and gain life. Thoughts on this? )
- Static defence? The cannon attack speed got nerfed when not Chrono boosted. No other change has been applied. Are more changes necessary?
- Bugs and tooltips. I have some large bugs I know must be fixed. Many of the tooltips I have written must be re-written by someone who is better at the English language. XiA might be able to help me with this.
- Small balance modifications. (This will always be required.)
- Lurkers? Are they still a "problem" in ZvP?
Other things you think must be fixed?
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Shock on ghost is useless because it is a slow projectile and only hits one target, make it a faster projectile and make it targetable on ground with a small radius, that would actually be useful.
Bio/tank/vessel is pretty good vs P, seen a newcomer do really well with it (he didn't even use drops) and he nearly killed me at certain points. I wouldn't buff bio, we haven't seen pro hands using bio in TvP. In early WoL banelings were thought to be the hardcounter of marines, until marineking showed up...
Nerfing cannons further will just force P to make even more of them.
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On June 30 2013 14:17 Xiphias wrote:
Nice wikia update, great job!
About bio being viable in TvT and PvT:
I think we should focus less on making bio viable in every match up. It is, ofc, viable in the same way dt's are viable. You can catch your opponent off guard and kill him, and we should especially be very careful of nerfing units just because they counter bio too hard. It always seems to have unintended consequences.
We should rather give bio the tools it need to be able to deal with different situations (like the new Ghost ability) and let the players explore the possibilities of bio usage. It is, and should be, extremely difficult to play bio in TvP and TvT. If bio is always worse than mech in TvZ as well, then we should look at buffing it.
This is why I really like the G-4 charges we had on the reaper. It was really hard to use, but if you were good, you could actually pick off tanks and reavers with them. Godlike micro was required ofc. I would like to see them back, even if they were rarely used.
But most importantly, let's not nerf any unit just because it counters bio too hard (like the reaver....). The reaver has two clear disadvantages for its power. It cannot shoot up, and it is slow as a queen off of creep (even slower?)
But it is fair that you can sneak a dropship by and force a reaction from the opponent, right?
I think with pure bio this probably isn't viable in tvp as you can overinvest into cannons, and still win any kind of fight cost efficiently due to the strenght of reavers. With tank/bio I think you can actually use matrix'ed tanks as meatshield and beat a reaver composition if he overinvests into static defenses.
TvT though is obviously different. Turret rings efficiently denies the drop threat and the bio army has to attack straight into the mech army which never should work.
Other things you think must be fixed?
Yes viper. Please try it in the unit tester. Breed is bad, and I can't imagine any situation where I would want to pay for an expensive spellcaster and then research two upgrades to use a bad ability.
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On June 30 2013 16:41 Kabel wrote:
Other things you think must be fixed to make Starbow feel worthy enough to be presented to a "larger audience?"
Maps. Don't want to be too harsh, but quite honestly most maps are not aesthetically appealing and often a little weird.
If it helps, I can give you some of my better works - but I'm nowhere near the level of the topmapmakers around and those maps have been originally created for SC2. (I don't think that my maps are much above the level of some of the maps I'm critizising)
Nerazim Exile http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351803
Across the Stars http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=260227
It would probably just be best to adapt some old SC2 maps that could work for Starbow, e.g.
Tal'darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau. After all, people know those maps and it would be way easier to learn Starbow when you don't have to learn the maps as well.
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On June 30 2013 17:21 SolidSMD wrote:
Shock on ghost is useless because it is a slow projectile and only hits one target, make it a faster projectile and make it targetable on ground with a small radius, that would actually be useful.
Bio/tank/vessel is pretty good vs P, seen a newcomer do really well with it (he didn't even use drops) and he nearly killed me at certain points. I wouldn't buff bio, we haven't seen pro hands using bio in TvP. In early WoL banelings were thought to be the hardcounter of marines, until marineking showed up...
Nerfing cannons further will just force P to make even more of them.
Shock also disables the detection capability of detector units. We should give the ghost, the old mines (g4charge) of the reaper (tried "Starbow - Ghost test" on arcade game).
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Reapers have not been used that much in combats either, with the new splash upgrade. Mostly in the beginning. Maybe they are redundant in combat? Or maybe they could be quite good vs clumped up Zealots, for example?
I do like the fact that early Reapers sees a bit of play. They can do some nice early damage, which is fun to watch. Not sure if they are still too strong, especially in TvZ.
I think the reaper upgrade isn't seeing much play becasue marines are so damn effective at dealing with both zealots and especially lings. Irradiate is also such a strong AOE ability vs banelings for instance if the opponent doesn't have AA.
If marines did something like 5.5 + 1 vs nonlight units, players would be more inclined to use reapers and it would also be a slight buff vs armored units.
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I agree with HideR on Breed. It was potentially too strong and now it's just too weak. I think it needs to be strong and weak if that makes any sense. It should have a definite weakness and a definite strength. Imo, the weakness should be the cost and the strength should be the unit. You need to build a Viper, probably consume (remove the upgrade for breed....), lay a FRAGILE egg which has to survive for 20 sec, and then, a strong unit should emerge.
I have no problem with abduct on hive tech as well as he talked about, but then the range should be increased slightly (+1 or 2) .
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I agree a tad too strong, a baneling dies in 4 ticks if i'm not mistaken, and 4 ticks pass quickly, so losing a whole chunk of your ling/bane can happen in seconds.
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EPT
