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On July 01 2013 08:43 Kabel wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The topic that ruins my sleep
Sumadin, you haunt me. In every game you say "Bio without Marauders will never ever work."
I say: "Pffftt... nonsens."
You continue.
I continue.
Convinced that I am right in this matter.
But I have been wrong so many times before.
So I have decided to give your constant echo a chance.
I sat down with pen and paper and pondered over some solutions.
Lets play with the thought:
What would happen with the game if the Marauder, after all, was added to the game in some modified version?
Problems I see right away:
- A-move into Lurker lines would be too good.
- Would still not make bio work in TvT since Spider mines + Tanks are so brutal
- Bio would still be hard countered by Reavers
- Would force Force Field back into the game. Otherwise Stalkers would not stand a chance
- Big blobs of Marauders just stimming and killing everything...
Must it be like this?
Is it possible to adjust the Marauder so it fits into the game and actually adds something good to the gameplay?
A potential solution:
Marauder
Cost 75/25 <--- (Cheaper than in SC2!)
Build time 30-35 seconds
HP 80 <--- (125 in SC2)
Armored
Armor 1
Damage 8 vs all, ca 12-14 vs armored (Compare to SC2 where they deal 10 vs all, 20 vs armored!)
Attack cooldown 1.5 seconds
Speed 2.25
Range 4 or 5.
Require tech lab?
Ok, what would these stats do?
- Lurkers 4 shot them, so A-move into them would still be hard. (As it should be!)
- They are cost efficent vs Stalkers, and can actually apply pressure vs P early, but they are NOT insanely strong!
- They would help Terran early Bio stronger in TvT, since Marauders would be able to fight vs the early Vultures/Tanks.
(It would be harder once Terran reaches a high enough number of Siege tanks.)
What units would Marauders do extra damage versus?
- Tanks, Goliaths, Marauders, Stalkers, Archons, Reaver, Queen, Lurker, Ultralisk, Structures (including Static defence...)
The extra toughness from the Marauders would help Terran bio to apply pressure vs all races.
What countes the Marauder?
- Tanks, Spider mines, Marines, Zealots, Storm, Reaver, Lurker, Hydra, Zergling, Flying units.
But what about TvT? Marauders will die just like Marines when they attack into Siege tanks...
- Well, sieged Siege tanks, Spider mines and Lurkers are supposed to be strong at that area.
But if we want Marauders to NOT be completely worthless, maybe some kind of upgrade can be added that reduces splash damage by a value. This would make them able to survive 2-shots from a Reaver, 3-shots from a tank, 2 spider mines etc. Still not super strong in a straight up fight, but not ridiculously fragile like Marines...
What would the total picture of Bio be?
- Marines are low HP, high DPS.
- Reaper are fast, fragile, strong vs light units. (Especially with splash upgrade.)
- Marauders are high HP, decent DPS vs armored. (Best bio alternative vs armored units.)
- Medics are supporter. Heal and can use Matrix on any unit.
- Ghosts are disable/harassment.
Maybe stats must be modified a little bit so we reach this scenario:
- Marauders have best DPS vs armored.
- Reapers have best DPS vs light.
- Marines have best DPS vs "medium" units. (For example lower their damage vs all from 6 to 5.)
The optimal scenario would be if each bio unit was truly useful for different purposes.
Otherwise Marines might still be the strongest bio counter versus every unit since they have superior DPS vs everything!
But what about the larger gameplay picture? Would this not break everything?
Are blobs of Marines unstoppable? I would say no.
If we keep the Marauder at decent stats, the same units/spells that counter mass Marines will counter Marauders too.
For example Reavers, Storm, Zealots, Lurkers, Ensnare, Plague etc..
I don´t think mass Marines + Marauders will be viable all game long. If the enemy races have proper ways of countering this, then Terran MUST add in other units into their mix. Just as we see in TvP where Terran opens Bio: It works, but later on they must get Tanks + Vessels. Maybe Vikings. If they don¨t, Protoss will get an insane advantage with Reavers, Storm, Archons etc.
Conclusion: A modified version of the Marauder would be the needed extra punch to Bio in all match-ups.
If we are careful with the balance, Marauders will not break the game.
Ok Sumadin. I gave you a fair chance. I examined the possibilities of this unit.
Now it is up to the judges who read this thread:
- Thoughts on this?
- Would this be a much needed piece of the puzzle?
- Is this good enough in theory to make it worth trying in the game?!
- Possible adjustements to the above?
"Sees Comment" *MUST MAKE DETAILED RESPONCE* "Sees Clock" *2.30 AM Ah screw it i got Holidays* Who is ruining who's sleep now?
Anyway commence!
A potential solution:
Marauder
Cost 75/25 <--- (Cheaper than in SC2!)
Build time 30-35 seconds
HP 80 <--- (125 in SC2)
Armored
Armor 1
Damage 8 vs all, ca 12-14 vs armored (Compare to SC2 where they deal 10 vs all, 20 vs armored!)
Attack cooldown 1.5 seconds
Speed 2.25
Range 4 or 5.
Require tech lab?
Stats actually looks alright for a start(I am sure we will come back to make adjustments). Well all except for one. There is no universe in all of starcraft where a range 5 unit is any serrious treat against the range 7 stalkers. Range 6 and it is my last offer. Yes they will be shotting back at stalkers from a bunker. We can disquss concussive shells at a later date.
I also think we might wanna consider having its attack be higher but at slower speed to increase the effect of sentinel safeguard.
- Lurkers 4 shot them, so A-move into them would still be hard. (As it should be!)
- They are cost efficent vs Stalkers, and can actually apply pressure vs P early, but they are NOT insanely strong!
- They would help Terran early Bio stronger in TvT, since Marauders would be able to fight vs the early Vultures/Tanks.
(It would be harder once Terran reaches a high enough number of Siege tanks.)
Sounds like WOL Mech vs Bio. Except being harder for the Bio player. Which is fine.
- Well, sieged Siege tanks, Spider mines and Lurkers are supposed to be strong at that area.
But if we want Marauders to NOT be completely worthless, maybe some kind of upgrade can be added that reduces splash damage by a value. This would make them able to survive 2-shots from a Reaver, 3-shots from a tank, 2 spider mines etc. Still not super strong in a straight up fight, but not ridiculously fragile like Marines...
Too complex. I think a Raw HP-Increase research would be better. Which as it conviniantly stands was avaliable in the campaign with both name and Icon.
Having Kinetic Foam to add +25 HP to 80HP Marauder would bring them above the HP/Supply of Marines (Good if not mandatory). It would mean that Lurkers would 5-shot Marauders but Hydras should still win the battle for Zerg. This could be factory-level or have the same Research time as Stim to allow some counter-timings, i don't care but i think it would be the better solution than random damage reductions.
They will also survive a single Reaver shot.... and will hate your soul for letting them experience that and survive(Ever so barely). They will die from 2 tank shots still, but they will endure more of the splash, which is actually a huge part of their strength in SC2.
Coupled with a few surgical buffs to the Ghost i think through we could have a more intresting bio style that with any luck might be a little viable this time.
Are blobs of Marines unstoppable? I would say no.
If we keep the Marauder at decent stats, the same units/spells that counter mass Marines will counter Marauders too.
For example Reavers, Storm, Zealots, Lurkers, Ensnare, Plague etc..
I don´t think mass Marines + Marauders will be viable all game long. If the enemy races have proper ways of countering this, then Terran MUST add in other units into their mix. Just as we see in TvP where Terran opens Bio: It works, but later on they must get Tanks + Vessels. Maybe Vikings. If they don¨t, Protoss will get an insane advantage with Reavers, Storm, Archons etc.
That is how it have always worked really. People complain about TvP being won with pure barracks units while there are a lesser fleet of Vikings, and Medivacs in the Air. Even Ravens lately.
Yeah in terms of uniqueness, Marauders and Marines overlap. I generally do not like when units feel similar, especially in the way they are controlled. They do not add any extra elements either,,, It is kinda a balance band aid solution
I don't really think they overlap as much as people think. Yes they control much the same but asside from that their counter range is very much different. With any luck people might be better able to exploit that in Starbow.
The marauder might just be a Bandaid... but it is a bandaid that covers alot of wounds at once. Which makes designing a mod without it all the harder when we use largely the same structure.
3:30 AM. Alright i am off to bed. Night people.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
You guys really think that starbow havent other problems than BCs and maradeurs?
@BCs
and personally i wont make BCs in TvP and TvZ even if u add them +50% dmg and 50% of speed. there's a small chance that im wrong, but it is, i seriously dont wanna build them. So everytime sumadin says as obs "still no BCs i laugh a bit, because i know - i wont make them  "
and here's reasons:
- they're highly lategame unit
- tech switch to mass BCs too dangerous
- i usually forgot about them lategame where im busy establishing my 7th base and attacking at enemys 9th, harrasing and etc
^ based on this i say that no BCs from me is just a personal preference, i trade possible advantages for more stable gameplay
tldr of this is: maybe u dont see BCs much because you havent seen enough games?
@Lategame bio
lets see what units in bio we can have
Marine - cheapest unit, main bio force, awesome dmg, low surviability
for me marines are kinda good, im not against some lategame upgrade such as shields, dunno why u removed them though
Medic - awesome unit with strong matrix, i like it and his balance.
Now medics are in response for shielding bio army, since firebat (i still believe that main role of firebat was meatshielding, not splash) and maradeur are gone
Reaper - they're awesome at beginning and suck lategame. no idea what their splashdmg does (because they're not dmgdealers at all) and no idea why u removed Johnny's mines, but lategame reapers is a headache for everyone for a quite long time, so i'll leave it without comments
Ghost - at first i saw ghost in sc2 i was shocked how good it is. then i saw it in SBow and i was shocked again how you killed ghost. it just lies here and begs someone for help.
now we have no-dmg bio unit with cloak and nukes. i wont say much as shock, but i've tested it in tester and i havent been impressed.
slowmoving not-so-much range rocket to prevent 1 unit from using abilities and nerfing its attackspeed and movespeed? for???
i can throw jammer and stop all ground units in the area from attacking completely within 0.5 seconds.
i can EMP any units in the area!! for prevent them casting at all
so if u want to buff bio - my suggestions, dont bother with maradeur - make ghost good unit.
like:
increase cost to 150-150
good attack dmg, 10-15 to all, 20 vs light
add old bw Lock if u lack of ideas (or something like that, preferably instant and long range
add second battle spell, good as SVs (pls no movespeed slow by 50% with slowly regaining in 1.5 aoe range)
check nuke if its ok, so ghost could push tank lines with it
and here is what u need for bio - support-battle caster that allows you to deal vs protoss, mech or whatever (not sure about ultras)
actually if u are able to add snipe or any other antiultralisk spell to ghost - then bio would be universal, just like you wanted
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3 things too op in my opinion:
-Blink simply so good at keeping the terran pressured and expanding simultaniously. when carefully executed the protoss can kill so much stuff without losing much!! l dont know how this can be fixed though :/
- nerf jammers of the science vessel is too good vs p. I think you should increase a little the energy cost, or perhaps p should get some scouts.
- irridiate definately too good vs zerg.
1 thing up
- emp of the science vessel. perhaps increase the radius of it.
ps: please dont add marauders! I hope there would be a different solution to this problem!
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The propsed marauder is pretty inefficient imo. like in SC2, it's dps vs armored is lower than marine's dps vs armored.
But, it also lacks all of SC2s strenghts, aka longer range, high burst (important to make it good vs high armor targets), concussive shells and high HP.
Generally, 5 bio units seem to be too much and the maraudrs tankiness is a part of matrix imo.
But that doesnt mean Im against the marauder. E.g. an interesting idea is dodgeable attack with small splash and good damage against everything (like the marine). makes it weak against fast moving targets (all the stuff it shouldnt counter) but good against huge clumps and slow/static/unmicroed targets.
e.g:
75 HP
12+4vs armored
1.5 weapon speed
0.3 splash radius (50%), 0.1 splash radius (100%)
attacks target point instead of target unit
75/25, reactored, 35second build time
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the problem with those blinkstalkers: (only gonna talk about the game versus hider, because he simply plays better)
He tried to take the third (before mine!) without tanksupport, a slight variation of his build would be fine. He thought he could take the stalkers with his bio, then i kited him back till i was on the highground (which favors me really hard!) and lost all his marines. Now the real problem of the blinkstalkers is just like muta's in pvz, it can snowball out of control if you make a big mistake versus it, because you just can keep on trading well with good blinkmicro --> you'll overwhelm the opponent. Now, when can you deal with the blinkstalkers? once you have 6+ tanks, my stalkers will melt if you push well. And this pushing needs to be careful, as if you'd play bio/tank versus muta/ling/baneling. This is not easy, thus it is normal that people lose too it the first couple times they play versus it.
I say to wait a day or 2, let hider figure things out, because i know he will and you'll see you don't need any units like the marauder.
And I'll say it again, shock would be great if it was a faster projectile and targetable on ground, that would be also a great counter to blinkstalkers (unable to blink for 6ish seconds and slow movement). So getting out a ghost or 2 around 10 mins would shut this down really hard with good micro.
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There is no universe in all of starcraft where a range 5 unit is any serrious treat against the range 7 stalkers. Range 6 and it is my last offer.
Stalkers have range 6.
You guys really think that starbow havent other problems than BCs and maradeurs?
You really think we think that Starbow has no other problems than BCs and Marauders? 
We can only discuss a few topics at a time. The reason I brought up this one was due to a lot of PvTs played in a row during the evening. We saw a lot of Bio and Blink Stalker play. And we discussed the problems in game.
3 things too op in my opinion:
-Blink simply so good at keeping the terran pressured and expanding simultaniously. when carefully executed the protoss can kill so much stuff without losing much!! l dont know how this can be fixed though :/
- nerf jammers of the science vessel is too good vs p. I think you should increase a little the energy cost, or perhaps p should get some scouts.
- irridiate definately too good vs zerg.
Yep, these were some of the problems we saw in all the PvTs from yesterday. It is not impossible to fix via balance adjustements.
Maybe increase Blink research cost to 200/200 from 150/150. Build time 160 seconds instead of 140.
Maybe should Stalker range upgrade become cheaper in return? 100/100 instead of 150/150. (We must make sure it feels good with the Bunker Marine range upgrade, Siege tank timing.. So early Stalker pressure does not become too unstoppable.. )
Nerve Jammer messes very hard with the AI. Seems like the units stops completely. I will look in the editor to see if I can modify this.
Irradiate.. Maybe the damage should just be lower? One Irradiate deals enough damage to ALMOST kill a Lurker, Viper, Queen, Guardian, Devourer. (They have quite similar HP.) So Terran need like one Irradiate and an other shot..
Irradiate can kill Zergling, Baneling, Mutalisk, Scourge, Hydra and Defiler guaranteed? (Unless Zerg heals them with Queens..)
@Marauder
This unit will tear us apart. Some gonna like it, some are gonna hate it. IF it gets added, everything good with Starbow will be destroyed? If it does not get added, we will continue trying to solve an unsolveable problem for ever?
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Warhammer 40k treats heavy weapons like missile launchers (or lascannons) like so: their rate of fire is absurdly low, but their killing power is unmatched and in fact serious overkill most of the time. Basically, the stats make the weapon ineffective against large groups because it can only overkill one unit at a time, while faster firing weapons that do less damage mow down the weaker guys efficiently.
So, an option for a marauder is a unit that fires with long range and great, great damage, but which fires so slowly that it's only useful if you specifically use it to target down worthy units like stalkers or siege tanks or ultralisks. Overuse of focus fire would result in a lot of wasted shots against, say, a single targeted stalker.
The high damage attack could be some sort of anti-armored bonus, whatever.
For that matter, the immortal would be more interesting if it worked like that too...
Basically, the unit could be very strong, but maddeningly difficult to micro efficiently because it would tend to just shoot at the front lines, or over focus-fire.
g'night.
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On July 01 2013 18:40 Inimic wrote:
Warhammer 40k treats heavy weapons like missile launchers (or lascannons) like so: their rate of fire is absurdly low, but their killing power is unmatched and in fact serious overkill most of the time. Basically, the stats make the weapon ineffective against large groups because it can only overkill one unit at a time, while faster firing weapons that do less damage mow down the weaker guys efficiently.
So, an option for a marauder is a unit that fires with long range and great, great damage, but which fires so slowly that it's only useful if you specifically use it to target down worthy units like stalkers or siege tanks or ultralisks. Overuse of focus fire would result in a lot of wasted shots against, say, a single targeted stalker.
The high damage attack could be some sort of anti-armored bonus, whatever.
For that matter, the immortal would be more interesting if it worked like that too...
Basically, the unit could be very strong, but maddeningly difficult to micro efficiently because it would tend to just shoot at the front lines, or over focus-fire.
g'night.
Well, if you look back in the WoL Alpha the earliest battle reports on Kulas, the marauders were similiar: High damage, low firerate, lot of hp. It could work but I wouldnt like it I think.
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i have checked the replay, here's what made hider lose: trying to take the third right when i'm about to start pressuring and when trying to fight my stalkers he didn't use any matrix, I hadn't even made my third yet. marine/medic is a mobile army, not a strong defensive one. I picked off marines by going back and forth, only able to do this because there was no matrix used and no tanksupport. Due to his third timing, my army value actually rapidly surpassed his, around 11 minutes i have double the amount of resources invested in units, no bunker and no siegetanks, i think it's only normal that i was able to kill him due to constant pressure.
His build could've worked if he went 3 rax into siegetank on highground for backup, so my stalkers can't just try to take a shot at the marines. Maybe a starport after to do some counterpressure with a medivac and making a viking to defend against drops. These changes and he'd probably have been ahead in midgame due to his early third.
Watch the replay for yourself and reason that this was pretty normal. No siegetanks to counter the stalkers until he was already behind and after that he actually fought pretty cost-effective.
http://drop.sc/346976
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The problem I see for bio versus blink stalkers is that the best solution likely involves adding tanks in really quickly, which allows you take a faster 3rd and make it possible move out on the map faster (roughly the 13-14 minute mark, I guess you can move out).
But isn't that problematic? Isn't the cool thing about bio that you can use the mobility of the bio force to gain map control --> outexpand/harass the opponent? If faster tanks and lots of defending is the answer, then the only difference between bio + tank and total mech is the battle micro.
While I am sure that I can find some way to get in a decent position into the lategame, I don't think this creates a very dynamic gameplay.
I see two different types of solutions;
1) Delay tech of blink, but also delay reaver tech as it seems slightly too easy for the protoss player to mix in reavers into the unit composition. I would like if there was a more vulnerable time period for the protoss player.
2) Add in a modified version of the maurauder.
At this point I think the latter option is almost likely to the easier one as it also helps with tvt bio vs mech.
The latter also gives us room for so much more diverse unit composition. At the moment a terran player is fine with going pure marine/medi + sv vs zerg. This makes mutalisk play useless in the matchup. But by adding in the maurauder to the composition, we can nerf the healing rate of the medi without making bio useless. A lower healing rate will make a marine (maurauder), medi composition worse vs lings + zealots --> More need for reapers.
A lower healing rate won't affect bio vs reavers/tanks though, and as that isn't needed, I don't see any uninteded consequence of those changes.
While the maurauder is kinda hated on this board, the truth is, that it does makes it possible to solve a lot of the issues with Starbow.
His build could've worked if he went 3 rax into siegetank on highground for backup, so my stalkers can't just try to take a shot at the marines. Maybe a starport after to do some counterpressure with a medivac and making a viking to defend against drops.
I think that's a bad build tbh. The problem is that I don't see any reasons why you can't take an extremely fast 3rd your self. Adding in 3 rax before siege tanks, gives you too much of an economic advantage (if you take a fast 3rd). Since I can't make a reactionary build, as I need siege tanks to take a 3rd regardless of what your expo timing, I simply need faster siege tanks. I think 1 rax expo --> factory --> inbase 3rd --> 2 more raxes --> move out, is likely to be the best build. But I am not so much concerned about balance as game dynamic.
The problem will still be that I doubt I can actually punish you before you have reavers out. That makes blink stalkers opening optimal every single game IMO, since you can take the whole map in the proces due the mobility of the stalkers, and when it really matters, you are also relatively cost effective due to the presense of reavers. Chances are also, that when they are out, it forces me to once again go into defense mode in order to deal with reaver harass.
Running all these scenarios through my head, I think with optimal play, you'll basically play bio + tank likes its mech, which IMO kinda defeats the purpose.
Secondly, where is the creativity? If I have to do that build every single time, doesn't it create bad gameplay? What about the viability of something like 1/1/1, 2/1/1, 1/2/1 on 2-3 bases for harass purposes? Wouldn't it be fun if more builds were viable? The problem I see is that blink stalkers shuts down harass extremely efficient in the early midgame, and will absolutely kill you if you don't have enough core units + critical mass of tanks out.
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lots of defending isn't the answer, but you have to defend as well, you can't expect to just be able to go bio against anything. You expanded first to your third, either i'm not attacking and you get away with it, or as it was, i'm the aggressor and you're the defender. You can't expect unmicroed marine/medic without bunkers to hold of masses of blinkstalkers, right? If it did, that would be pretty imbalanced don't you think?
*forcing you to go siege tank : yes i force you to do something about my aggression or just straightup die, that's the whole point of this blinkbuild, if you wouldn't need tanks then this would be the normal sc2, a world where protoss has to defend no matter what for 30 minutes and then move out with a deathball, because i can never punish/attack.
If zerg opens up muta's and i don't make stalkers, then i will die, simple as that, even if i don't die (like you), i will be very behind and chances to come back will be very slim. If your argument is that it's imbalanced that you'd need siege tanks to defend versus blinkstalkers (and they're fucking cost-effective as well, the problem is mainly that you don't want to go siege tanks), then i can say it is imbalanced that i should get a reasonable amount of stalkers around the 9 minute mark in pvz because muta's could be coming.
Watch the replay again and see that my bases are undefended, a drop would do damage easily.
Delaying blink will not solve your problem, if i hit 20 seconds later and you still don't have siege tanks/bunkers and you don't use matrix, then you'd still fall behind.
About reavers being added too easily, if i can't make 2 reavers and a warpprism by 12 minutes while not investing in any attack/armor upgrades, then something would be seriously wrong.
Your bio builds have rarely beat me, and those were games where i didn't open heavy blink.
Marauder is terrible for the game, it makes it viable to run into siegelines (matrix!!), in bio vs mech you should outexpand and outmaneuver your opponent, thus making it the harder style. + In starbow there are lots of ways to punish siege lines (that haven't been setup for very long!), bio player has more gas -> air advantage -> vessel with nerve jammer. Or dropping marines on siegetanks (hell even scv-drop with orbital is effective), positional nukes to keep the meching terran from inching further, ....
Starbow does not need the marauder.
Edit: You don't have to do the build i suggested, but you fucking need siegetanks if you take such a quick third with a wide arc to attack it (mapspecific).
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On July 01 2013 20:27 SolidSMD wrote:
lots of defending isn't the answer, but you have to defend as well, you can't expect to just be able to go bio against anything. You expanded first to your third, either i'm not attacking and you get away with it, or as it was, i'm the aggressor and you're the defender. You can't expect unmicroed marine/medic without bunkers to hold of masses of blinkstalkers, right? If it did, that would be pretty imbalanced don't you think?
*forcing you to go siege tank : yes i force you to do something about my aggression or just straightup die, that's the whole point of this blinkbuild, if you wouldn't need tanks then this would be the normal sc2, a world where protoss has to defend no matter what for 30 minutes and then move out with a deathball, because i can never punish/attack.
If zerg opens up muta's and i don't make stalkers, then i will die, simple as that, even if i don't die (like you), i will be very behind and chances to come back will be very slim. If your argument is that it's imbalanced that you'd need siege tanks to defend versus blinkstalkers (and they're fucking cost-effective as well, the problem is mainly that you don't want to go siege tanks), then i can say it is imbalanced that i should get a reasonable amount of stalkers around the 9 minute mark in pvz because muta's could be coming.
Watch the replay again and see that my bases are undefended, a drop would do damage easily.
Delaying blink will not solve your problem, if i hit 20 seconds later and you still don't have siege tanks/bunkers and you don't use matrix, then you'd still fall behind.
About reavers being added too easily, if i can't make 2 reavers and a warpprism by 12 minutes while not investing in any attack/armor upgrades, then something would be seriously wrong.
Your bio builds have rarely beat me, and those were games where i didn't open heavy blink.
Marauder is terrible for the game, it makes it viable to run into siegelines (matrix!!), in bio vs mech you should outexpand and outmaneuver your opponent, thus making it the harder style. + In starbow there are lots of ways to punish siege lines (that haven't been setup for very long!), bio player has more gas -> air advantage -> vessel with nerve jammer. Or dropping marines on siegetanks (hell even scv-drop with orbital is effective), positional nukes to keep the meching terran from inching further, ....
Starbow does not need the marauder.
But there still isn't any downside to massing blink stalkers right in the first 10-12 minutes. This is always the optimal opening. My design theory from terran is there should be a clear distinction between how you bio and mech. Bio should be the mobile unit compostion. Mech the immobile unit composition .But instead, it seems that both will always be played as immobile unit compositions in almost every single pvt. This isn't good design in my opinion.
Dropping isn't the solid answer. You have observers, so you have the opportunity and the mobility to deal with drops. Opening drop play against blink stalkers is a gimmick.
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It's the way the matchup works, T has to react to P, P has to react to Z.
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Marauder is terrible for the game, it makes it viable to run into siegelines (matrix!!), in bio vs mech you should outexpand and outmaneuver your opponent, thus making it the harder style. + In starbow there are lots of ways to punish siege lines (that haven't been setup for very long!), bio player has more gas -> air advantage -> vessel with nerve jammer. Or dropping marines on siegetanks (hell even scv-drop with orbital is effective), positional nukes to keep the meching terran from inching further, ....
Starbow does not need the marauder.
But will Marauders actually be able to run into and kill Siege lines?
If we keep their HP relatively decent, maybe 80, Spider mines and the super strong Siege tanks will still melt Bio-assaults, no matter if they cast Matrix on the Marauders? (Matrix adds 150 extra HP. 3 Spider mines kill a Marauder instead of 1.)
If we manage to make the Marauders stats decent enough, would it not help to lead to more diversity and more playstyles in all the match-ups? And actually give Bio a much needed boost in TvP and TvT? (Especially make Bio stronger in the early/mid game BEFORE the enemy Terran reaches a critical mass of Tanks/Spider mines.. Atm there is no vulnerability in going straight for Mech. Bio pushes are very weak.)
But ofc Marauders shall never ever be able to just A-move into Lurkers or Siege tanks and win easily.
(Which will probably be hard if they have 80 HP. Dies from 4 Lurker shots or 2 siege tank shots. Compare it to Marines, who dies from 3 Lurker shots and 2 Siege tank shots..)
But it would help to make Bio Drops even stronger, thus it helps to strengthen the "outmaneuver aspect" of bio?
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Hider, so basically you want to expand, harass and be more effective in direct combat with bio?
You have asked what is the downside of massing stalkers. 1. Stalkers are getting less and less effective as game progresses. They scale bad with upgrades and you need to invest more and more into them to keep beeing efficient. 2. 50 gas for each stalker really delays tech a lot. Much more than couple upgrades for bio and 25gas medics. 3. Once you make mistake and lose few too many stalkers then you are screwed.
Also, somebody here is spreading misinformation. Irradiate did kill lurkers in Bw. Damage dealt by it was around 255. Somebody had to confuse values with storm. Storm almost killed lurkers in bw leaving them with hps to be one shoted (117 dmg if I remember well).
If you want to nerf irradiate then try something like 30ticks, 6 damage each second. Also, consider Range nerf to like 5-6, but keep speed decent. Maybe allow casting on move and nerf acceleration so its possible to fly close and run away if you won't stop.
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My point still stands, the marauder is not needed in starbow. Ghosts can fill that gap if their shock does in fact have a small aoe and clickable on ground.
Bio in TvT is not the same as in sc2, you need to actually use ghosts to delay pushes.
Something else i'd like to see is nerve jammer disabling static D, making it able to carry dropships through turretrings.
edit: Hider just opened the way i suggested, adding siegetanks in time and took 0 damage from stalkerpressure.
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On July 01 2013 21:29 SolidSMD wrote:
My point still stands, the marauder is not needed in starbow. Ghosts can fill that gap if their shock does in fact have a small aoe and clickable on ground.
Bio in TvT is not the same as in sc2, you need to actually use ghosts to delay pushes.
Something else i'd like to see is nerve jammer disabling static D, making it able to carry dropships through turretrings.
edit: Hider just opened the way i suggested, adding siegetanks in time and took 0 damage from stalkerpressure.
Solid i am not sure you get the point. It is not just about whether this one stalker push can be held, it is also about being able to take the aggresive initiative as terran. Which there currently doesn't seem to be an option for.
As for Ghost holding off mech pushes, i have tried that myself. It is hard enough even to get ghosts in time for the mech push yet alone using them to disable the tanks. And even then once disabled having enough marines to take it out along with any Vultures along is almost impossible.
And it is problematic enough that we are even talking about Bio being the one having to hold the pushes. Mech should be the one afraid of early bio aggression, while bio should try to get an edge before the Mech player becomes immortal.
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watch the last replay i posted
edit: i do get what you're saying, but you don't get that you shouldn't go 3 CC quickly and expect to be the aggressor with bio.
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On July 01 2013 22:00 SolidSMD wrote:there you go http://drop.sc/346987hider opens up with FE into fast drops and destroys me.
Could you try and use Rift for drop defense... just once? If it is a problem we could also reduce the time units are "stunned" after being recalled.
Looking at it i am actually more conserned about the fact that Terran needs 15 min to take down a protoss after a single clutch timing drop killed 9 workers.
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EPT
