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On July 01 2013 22:20 Sumadin wrote:Could you try and use Rift for drop defense... just once? If it is a problem we could also reduce the time units are "stunned" after being recalled. Looking at it i am actually more conserned about the fact that Terran needs 15 min to take down a protoss after a single clutch timing drop killed 9 workers.
lol, he caught me offguard, it indeed occured to me that i didn't think of rift, WOW. Can you show me how to play P please? seriously, i could have done things better, he could have done things better, NOBODY IS FUCKING PERFECT. For the love of god, you should all stop coming to conclusions after a series of 5 games and give players a chance to figure things out.
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You are right that many of us base concerns, suggestions, adjustements, on quite few games. After all, we are a limited player pool and we do not have acess to a lot of data. So we have to work with what we got.
Indeed will the game surely be changed if a larger player pool ever starts to play and explore this. So we can not create everything in detail. Rather we should try to lay the foundation for an interesting gameplay, and then see how the game can evolve based on how the players play it.
Regarding the recent Marauder discussion, I did not bring it up purely as a way to solve imbalances. Those can be solved in many ways, either via small adjustements in stats, or via players finding a new strategy. I am more interested in the questions: Would it add more depth to the game? Would it add more potential strategies, build orders, and more dimensions in combat? (Rather than having the Marine as the only massable Bio unit.) Since I have been so negative towards that unit in the past, I decided to give it another room for discussion, since some other players seemed to see so much potential in it.
We have come far in the development. But there are still some question marks left to solve, and some apparent imbalances and bugs that most be fixed. Maybe 1-2 weeks of additional polishing will be enough before we can start to "advertise" to attract more players. Everything will not be perfect at that point. But the apparent problems in the game need to be fixed before that, for example adjust Vessels, fix Sentinel etc.
The purpose of "advertising" is just to see if more people thinks this MOD is fun enough to bother playing it. Cause that really is the purpose of this project: be a fun game, both to play, observe and develop. The more we are, the more fun might it be, since we get a deeper meta game and maybe an even larger community etc.
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http://drop.sc/346991 pretty even game where i don't take much damage from his drops, seems pretty even till lategame where i have a lot of arbiters that just statis his army.
edit: we both watched the replay and both agree it was a really good game with back and forth action. Showcases the power bio/tank/vessel can have. Sadly he forgot to research emp and that really put things in my favor. A must watch
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Well you know my stance on it Kabel. I don't think we could add more depth to Bio without the marauder. But there are things we could try adjusting before that.
I looked into the reaper. There is no way its current design will be late-game viable. With Bombs it can do decent damage to clumps of light units true... but it is still slower than letting a siege tank do it. Even through that the siege tanks weakest attacktarget. And they both cost same supply.
Lategame viability is all about Power/Supply. Defining what "Power" is abit hard as it depends on multible factors but just know that the Reaper probably have too little of it for its 2 supply to be able to match up to the late game units. Cost is not really that relevant.
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On July 01 2013 23:05 SolidSMD wrote:http://drop.sc/346991pretty even game where i don't take much damage from his drops, seems pretty even till lategame where i have a lot of arbiters that just statis his army. edit: we both watched the replay and both agree it was a really good game with back and forth action. Showcases the power bio/tank/vessel can have. Sadly he forgot to research emp and that really put things in my favor. A must watch
Yes bio tank vs protoss is very fun and dynamic. Its definitely a great late mid game/late game composition.
However, I am still not totally sold about early game/early midgame. Chances are protoss can work out a very safe way to take a quick 3rd which makes 2 base dropships allinsh. On the other hand terran likely can't take a 3rd while teching without flipping a coin (as they will lose to blink stalker all in I think, or just a warp prism all in). Quick dropplay are more likely to be good for variation purposes than as a standard build. Definitely needs more testing though.
I looked into the reaper. There is no way its current design will be late-game viable. With Bombs it can do decent damage to clumps of light units true... but it is still slower than letting a siege tank do it. Even through that the siege tanks weakest attacktarget. And they both cost same supply.
I think this is the correct conclusion but the wrong argument. Reapers have a clear advantage over siege tanks vs light meele units as the reaper can kite while the tanks suffer from thier own splash damage vs meele units. Problem with reapers is that ligth meele units aren't particularly strong in this game, and marines deal with them pretty efficiently.
Regarding the recent Marauder discussion, I did not bring it up purely as a way to solve imbalances. Those can be solved in many ways, either via small adjustements in stats, or via players finding a new strategy. I am more interested in the questions: Would it add more depth to the game? Would it add more potential strategies, build orders, and more dimensions in combat? (Rather than having the Marine as the only massable Bio unit.)
I think the main thing the maurauder could add to the game is more diversity in terms of unit compoisitons (more reapers, zealots, mutalisks in tvz), map control for terran bio around the 10-20 minute mark. This can likely be fixed in other ways, but I think it will be somewhat challenging.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
And no responses to my ghost suggestions? Buffed ghosts could hold blink stalkers and push the tann lines (not easy ofc) and deal all job instead of maradeurs
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Ghost - at first i saw ghost in sc2 i was shocked how good it is. then i saw it in SBow and i was shocked again how you killed ghost. it just lies here and begs someone for help. now we have no-dmg bio unit with cloak and nukes. i wont say much as shock, but i've tested it in tester and i havent been impressed. slowmoving not-so-much range rocket to prevent 1 unit from using abilities and nerfing its attackspeed and movespeed? for??? i can throw jammer and stop all ground units in the area from attacking completely within 0.5 seconds. i can EMP any units in the area!! for prevent them casting at all
so if u want to buff bio - my suggestions, dont bother with maradeur - make ghost good unit. like: increase cost to 150-150 good attack dmg, 10-15 to all, 20 vs light add old bw Lock if u lack of ideas (or something like that, preferably instant and long range add second battle spell, good as SVs (pls no movespeed slow by 50% with slowly regaining in 1.5 aoe range) check nuke if its ok, so ghost could push tank lines with it
Sorry, don't see why I would get this vs stalkers?
Anyway I tested out a new build which delays drop play a bit, but lets you take quick 3rd. Then you add in tanks preemptively so your safe. You scout to see if he has taken 3rd. If he has, then you drop him and gain map control by forcing him to defend vs drops. If he is still on 2 base, around the 9-10 minute mark, get a lot of bunkers so you safely can secure your 3rd.
So unlike sc2, you don't get map control automatically, but you have to force him to defend his bases by dropping him.
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@Fen1kz suggestion for Ghost
+ Show Spoiler +Ghost - at first i saw ghost in sc2 i was shocked how good it is. then i saw it in SBow and i was shocked again how you killed ghost. it just lies here and begs someone for help. now we have no-dmg bio unit with cloak and nukes. i wont say much as shock, but i've tested it in tester and i havent been impressed. slowmoving not-so-much range rocket to prevent 1 unit from using abilities and nerfing its attackspeed and movespeed? for??? i can throw jammer and stop all ground units in the area from attacking completely within 0.5 seconds. i can EMP any units in the area!! for prevent them casting at all
so if u want to buff bio - my suggestions, dont bother with maradeur - make ghost good unit. like: increase cost to 150-150 good attack dmg, 10-15 to all, 20 vs light add old bw Lock if u lack of ideas (or something like that, preferably instant and long range add second battle spell, good as SVs (pls no movespeed slow by 50% with slowly regaining in 1.5 aoe range) check nuke if its ok, so ghost could push tank lines with it
and here is what u need for bio - support-battle caster that allows you to deal vs protoss, mech or whatever (not sure about ultras) actually if u are able to add snipe or any other antiultralisk spell to ghost - then bio would be universal, just like you wanted
Ghosts are currently quite cheap (50/100), good movement speed, has rebalanced Nukes and a cheap spell to cast. Maybe the starting spell is too bad. If so, I can surely buff it. (I just want to see a few games with it first.)
But what does your suggestion solve? Yes, it improves the Ghost. But you make it an even more expensive later unit in the game.
What is the advantage of going Bio in TvT for example? Some argue it is the stronger option in the early/mid game, while Mech is stronger once Terran reaches enough of it. (Mid / late game)
The "problem" in TvT is that both players just go for mech. Early Bio pressure is so inefficent and easy to fend off. One vulture costs 25 minerals more than a Marine, and it can kill 2-3 Marines alone... Ofc Mech SHOULD be stronger once Terran reaches the critical amount. But if Bio actually would be able to apply pressure and be the stronger alternative in the early/mid game, we might see more variations and a more dynamic match-up. (I can only tell from the few TvTs I´ve seen where T has tried bio pressure vs mech. It has failed everytime.)
Maybe could some kind of Marauder unit help to improve the match-up. Maybe can this be solved just via the meta game or small balance adjustements.
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I think pure bio in tvt is not viable, but some mix of bio + air would be pretty good early/midgame when the meching terran doesn't yet have turrets everywhere. Lategame you could mix that up with ghosts/bc's/vessel... You have to find a way to contain the meching terran for long enough so your superior economy kicks in.
Something else that could help tvt is if nerve jammer also works vs static defense, so you can shut down the static defense for long enough to escort your drops in. Not sure it that would make it too strong.
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Nerve Jammer vs Static defence is worth to consider. I am currently reworking it so it does not mess so hard with unit AI. I will get a new patch up tomorrow. (Without any Marauder ofc)
We also need moar games! Maybe some TvT? I will be online in 30 minutes
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On July 02 2013 01:07 Kabel wrote: What is the advantage of going Bio in TvT for example? Some argue it is the stronger option in the early/mid game, while Mech is stronger once Terran reaches enough of it. (Mid / late game)
TvT You could give fast lockdown them ghosts could fastly disable both tanks and vultures. i wanna see bio army with 3 ghosts + some marines and medics win mech army with 3 tanks and some vultures with well placed lockdown and good positioning
with current shock and low ghosts dmg it is not possible. i repeat - current shock is a joke compared to lockdown
so with ghosts and marine support bio-pressures could be more deadlier
But lategame, where u need to engage 20 tanks ghosts could do nuke trick. have you seen them in sc2? it was pretty good to watch, and if change nuke slightly then it would be even more awesome. so when ur wanna engage heavy sieged mech terran - u drop nuke beneath his tanks and he needs to unsiege and go slightly back. after this you can engagne his unsieged tanks OR drop another nuke, pushing him even farer if you choose to engage you could matrix or ghosts and drop some lockdowns on clustered tanks - thats all micro, skill, etc rewarding
i think this is what u want - early/middle aggression, and with lategame position wars - only ghosts could push siege lines back
if u want my detail stats propositions - msg me 
TvP early game: ghosts good dmg and lockdowns could deal with stalker middle game: again - faster lockdowns could mean catching stalkers and reavers lategame: nukes could be used on famous "static defenced" expands
and all this could be done just with 1 spell and good dps thats why i want ghosts to be the new maradeur for bio (in good meaning)
and quick note about jammer make units move towards target if they cant attack (due jammer), this will remove units AI stupidness
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i agree with fen about the ghost, either a lockdown or shock with a faster projectile, clickable on ground and small aoe
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@Stuff to balance
I throw out my suggestions for balance here. Please discuss.
Early mass Reapers in TvT is insane. - Increase Reactor build time to 40 seconds, from 25. - Increase Reaper build time to 45 seconds, from 40.
Vessels - Decrease Irradiate damage from 245 to 140 over 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds... Just enough to NOT kill a Viper, Lurker, Queen, Overlord, Guardian or Devourer... They barely survive... Needs one more shot from something to die... - Make Nerve Jammer not destroy units AI. (I think I have found a solution.)
Corsair - Adjust the damage they gain from upgrades. (Currently they gain +2, should be +1)
Stasis Field is as fun as the old WoL Fungal Growth... - Redesign that spell.
Arbiter damage is too high. - Nerf damage per shot from 20 to 12.
Scourge can never hit Corsairs once they reach a critical mass. Is that a problem? Spider mine is the most frustrating thing in the game. Anyone else thinks the same? I am sick and tired of seeing only Marines + Medics. Anyone else share this feeling? Ghost starting spell will be pimped in some way.
Plus 10.000 bugs.
Other problems/concerns?
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myeah, maybe statis is a bit too unforgiving, although i haven't seen many emp's used and much clumping of units. I'd wait to see more lategame matches. I don't think scourges should be able to hit corsairs in critical mass, doesn't seem a problem to me. Arbiter damage: agreed. Vessels as well. If ghosts get a small buff they will see screenplay in pvt bio for sure, but i don't think it will have an impact on tvz, maybe for lategame, but that's it.
I'll upload some replays of me vs hider in pvt tomorrow. Bio/tank/vessel i a cool unit composition with a high skill cap, it's really cool to see and much more mobile than pure mech.
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I want know if is possible chage the the clock of team liquid forum. I currently reports 7:37 while my windows clock is at 00:37.
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I wanted to make a big post about these thing for a while and with the marauder discussion I have a perfect excuse, so here goes...
THE FORGOTTEN STATS
aka speed and range (with cost as added bonus)
Why they are important + Show Spoiler + Speed and range are the two most overlooked stats in any strategy game. Its easy to determine "this unit kills that unit" just based on health armor and and damage, but the more complex interactions are often difficult to see.
This makes most people believe that unit balance is purely a numbers game, where damage, cost and survivability must be balanced out, and other stats being secondary to the unit.
In reality its actually the other way around. Mobility and range difine units more than any other stats, and the "main" stats of the unit is actually just placed there as an effect of these stats. The third defining feature is cost, but more on this later.
To see that units actually work this way, you only need to think of a few starbow/BW units (WoL have horrid examples of wrong design)
The sieged tank has horrid mobility and huge range for high cost. This defines it as a positional unit that specializes in holding a position with damage. The price also means that its to be protected, but the mobility means that it should be able to take a few hits before dying.
A zergling is dirt cheap with great mobility and melee rang. This defines it as a throwaway unit, but its melee range also means that it could either have a fair bit of hp OR good damage (fist option is more boring soo...)
I could go on, but its important to note that these three features define every unit (exept spellcasters) when reading the next parts.
Range, defines health and combat ability + Show Spoiler + The first stat to define a unit is its range. This varies from melee range (1) to siege range (10-13). Range is important when determining how a unit should be fighting. Long ranged units will want to keep their distance under normal circumstances, whereas short range units will want to get close and fight it out. This leads to an inverse function of range to tankyness. Long ranged units are usually quite fragile, whereas short ranged units are relatively tanky.
This is not a rule set in stone, but a good generalisation of the impact range has on the unit role - want to give the unit more of a kiting style? add to range and remove some hp. Make a meatshield? short range will make it better at this role.
Unlike the other stats however, range mostly only has a subtle effect on other variables such as damage or mobility. It does however tend to allow for extremes when dealing with either siege or melee range.
Speed, defines primary role of unit + Show Spoiler + This is the big one. Speed really does define when and how a unit should be used. Damage, range and survivability are only subphenomena in this respect - easily seen by the fact that vultures, zealots and zerglings have strikingly similar roles despite being very different units. All function as meatshields for a core army. All are great for backstabs and fast harass. All tend to do horribly on thier own in major engagements.
Usually fast units are more tactical, whereas slow units are more strategic. In the fast end are the harassers and hit'n'run units - in the middle the core main army units - and in the slow end the positional and map based units. This also points out a few oddities with WoL - mainly the Colossus... Why is a strategic unit given so much mobility? and why does it function so much as a core army unit? This is clearly an example of the designer not assigning roles based on mobility.
I made the switch to calling this mobility for a reason. Certain abilities increase the mobility of a unit without nessesarely affecting the speed. Cliffwalk, blink and stim are all mobility spells, and the units should be treated with this in mind.
Other generalisations to be made on mobility are: Highly mobile units tend to be more fragile (range is more important for this though).
Slower units usually deal more damage.
Fast units are usually more extreme in their way of dealing damage (more bursty is the norm)
Cost, the stat that ties it all together + Show Spoiler + When all is said about range and mobility, cost is the stat that really defines how it does its job. A player will always want to lose cheap units before expensive units, so expensive units are usually given stats to help it do its job better or more safely. More expensive units tend to be more complex, and have much better damage output for supply, whereas cheap units have better dps for cost. In melee range health is directly affected by cost. At long range damage is directly affected by cost.
Higher cost also allows for more extreme units, with stats that deviate more from the role you would expect from the range and mobility of a given unit.
Cost also defines how a unit fits into the main army. Higher gas cost means specialized unit, higher mineral cost means expendable unit. Balanced cost means core unit.
What does it all mean + Show Spoiler + There are plenty of ideas implemented in both starbow, BW and SCII. But its hard to see if they work form first glances. By looking at the range and mobility, balanced by the cost of a unit, you can see some potential problems before its even tested, but you can also see some potential in tweaking these stats to make the unit fit its role better.
Here are some examples of poor unit designs:
Colossus - Great range and good mobility with high cost. The siege aspect of this unit is really problematic due to its mobility. It is also designed to be a main army unit, when it is clearly not set up to be that.
Marauder - Good range, great mobility and anti mobility spell. WHY SO TANKY? this is a longish range unit, so why give it so much hp. The persistant mobility advantage does not help this either, but it really needs to be either shorter range or less hp (and then it will just be a strange marine). The fact that stim is dealing the same damage as to marines despite the hp difference is also a stupid decision. (sorry but i really hate Marauders)
WoL Hydra - Low mobility with normal range and fairly expensive. Ehm... this is a really wierd combination of stats. For one thing its slow, so it needs to have map presence, witch it lacks because of its vulnearbility to AOE. Its range is standart leaning towards it being more a core army unit with decent, but not great health and good but not great damage. Its fairly high cost means that it can deviate from the norm, but its done in a really wierd way. Glad that this is not a thing anymore.
StarBow Stalker (What, you think I would only bash on WoL?) - Great mobility with good range and somewhat high cost. Easy to define - its a sophisticated raider with a side serving of combat support. Wait, you want this to be a core unit? Tough luck, its stats says otherwise. The mobility alone defines this as a definate tactical unit. the cost and range means that its not a throwaway or front line damage soak, so that means that its supposed to be used more like a vulture than a dragoon (unless we remove or radically rework blink)
BW Scout - Below average mobility with decent range and high cost. Here is a unit that really could have been so much more. All the stats are fairly well balanced to its mobility and range, but its high cost without incentive to pay this much really hinders it. Needs either better base stats or a radical change in one of the three defining features.
Remember that these things are not set in stone. Some units like zerglings or carriers have broken the standarts and still turned out to be great units (mostly because they kept to some other standarts, but still...)
I hope this will prove to be helpfull in sharpening the designs of some of the units as you guys finish this mod over the next weeks or months
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Colossus - Great range and good mobility with high cost. The siege aspect of this unit is really problematic due to its mobility. It is also designed to be a main army unit, when it is clearly not set up to be that.
Marauder - Good range, great mobility and anti mobility spell. WHY SO TANKY? this is a longish range unit, so why give it so much hp. The persistant mobility advantage does not help this either, but it really needs to be either shorter range or less hp (and then it will just be a strange marine). The fact that stim is dealing the same damage as to marines despite the hp difference is also a stupid decision. (sorry but i really hate Marauders)
WoL Hydra - Low mobility with normal range and fairly expensive. Ehm... this is a really wierd combination of stats. For one thing its slow, so it needs to have map presence, witch it lacks because of its vulnearbility to AOE. Its range is standart leaning towards it being more a core army unit with decent, but not great health and good but not great damage. Its fairly high cost means that it can deviate from the norm, but its done in a really wierd way. Glad that this is not a thing anymore.
StarBow Stalker (What, you think I would only bash on WoL?) - Great mobility with good range and somewhat high cost. Easy to define - its a sophisticated raider with a side serving of combat support. Wait, you want this to be a core unit? Tough luck, its stats says otherwise. The mobility alone defines this as a definate tactical unit. the cost and range means that its not a throwaway or front line damage soak, so that means that its supposed to be used more like a vulture than a dragoon (unless we remove or radically rework blink)
BW Scout - Below average mobility with decent range and high cost. Here is a unit that really could have been so much more. All the stats are fairly well balanced to its mobility and range, but its high cost without incentive to pay this much really hinders it. Needs either better base stats or a radical change in one of the three defining features.
Your ignoring synergy effects. The stalker in Starbow is very good as it synergizes well with the reaver for instance.
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@Kabel
Everything sounds great!
One important note.
T might need to go mech or add in something else by the time ultras hit the field in force. Right now irradiate is basically T's way of dealing with them.
I am so okay with this. People forget bio and mech are the same race.
@ Ultra charge I don't understand why this is in. It is basically an aoe stun spell on Z's most tanky, get in there and just kill stuff expensive unit. Does it do anything for the game at all? I've never seen it in action and thought, wow this is a cool spell. I've only ever looked at it and said, wow this spell is odd.
Welp, time to hit the map editor.
edit: + Show Spoiler +
Last time I checked we have SC2 storms. I think this is okay because we do have super tight clumping hydras ala sc2 engine.
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I am sick and tired of seeing only Marines + Medics. Anyone else share this feeling?
If maurauder isn't implemented, then I would consider this change;
- Damage changed from 6 vs everything to 5 vs light, 5 vs air, 6 vs normal armor and 7 vs armored.
This change will induce the following gameplay; 1) Reward terran players who mixes in reapers in their bio composiiton vs zealot, lings. 2) Rewards terrans who mixes in vikings vs mutalisks rather than relying on Marine medi SV which IMO just hard counters muta play. 3) Reward protoss players that uses zealots as meatshield vs bio, instead of relying on pure mass stalkers. 4) Slight buff to bio vs mech.
Turret suggestion; What about making this AOE based as a standard attack and reduce its damage to single targets (no activating required. this will be its default attack). This will have the following effect; - Make smalldrop play stronger - Make it more effective against big mutaplays or at least force the zerg player to microsplit his mutalisks when engaging turrets. - Something like 6-8 mutalisks which at the moment feels completly useless vs terran will suddenly be very useful vs terran, as long as the zerg player is capable of micro'ing them well. - Stronger against big dropplays/doomdrops.
Potential unintended consequence: An AOE turret will be very good vs carriers interceptors.
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On July 02 2013 09:49 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I am sick and tired of seeing only Marines + Medics. Anyone else share this feeling? If maurauder isn't implemented, then I would consider this change; - Damage changed from 6 vs everything to 5 vs light, 5 vs air, 6 vs normal armor and 7 vs armored. This change will induce the following gameplay; 1) Reward terran players who mixes in reapers in their bio composiiton vs zealot, lings. 2) Rewards terrans who mixes in vikings vs mutalisks rather than relying on Marine medi SV which IMO just hard counters muta play. 3) Reward protoss players that uses zealots as meatshield vs bio, instead of relying on pure mass stalkers. 4) Slight buff to bio vs mech. Turret suggestion;What about making this AOE based as a standard attack and reduce its damage to single targets (no activating required. this will be its default attack). This will have the following effect; - Make smalldrop play stronger - Make it more effective against big mutaplays or at least force the zerg player to microsplit his mutalisks when engaging turrets. - Something like 6-8 mutalisks which at the moment feels completly useless vs terran will suddenly be very useful vs terran, as long as the zerg player is capable of micro'ing them well. - Stronger against big dropplays/doomdrops. Potential unintended consequence: An AOE turret will be very good vs carriers interceptors.
And that is exactly why i want to implement the marauder or something like it. Because we are trying to make the marine fill way too many roles, and fit into too many conditions.
Turret suggestion.... WTF Hider??
Asside from the effects you mentioned it will also significantly boost the effect of the Turret clusters that Mech player likes to place when they move. Effectively making those clusters complete no-fly zones with something that doesn't cost food...
For one that always complain about Static defence this is a very strange suggestion.
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