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On June 30 2013 23:12 SolidSMD wrote:
I agree a tad too strong, a baneling dies in 4 ticks if i'm not mistaken, and 4 ticks pass quickly, so losing a whole chunk of your ling/bane can happen in seconds.
Yeh I think just massing marine/medi/SV's is just way easier vs zerg. Mixing in reapers seems like a completely unnecessary compliciation.
Anyway, I feel that Starbow is getting closer to feeling right. We still need to figure out roles for the reaper, ghost, sentinel and I guess the scout could be more fun to use as well. Right now it has a boring attack and a secondary ability.
Regarding the ghost I am thinking of whether it wouldn't just be easier to get rid of it. I think the matrix tanks dynamic vs reavers is quite interesting and it would be more fun work on getting that right rather than keeping the ghost in the game.
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oh, i should make some scouts in pvt, always forget them
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I feel like bio needs to be more viable tvp. I feel like chargelots are simply overpowering tanks but reavers and storm kills bio so efficiently its not even an option to deal with zlots.
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you move out with too few tanks
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Updated zerg photos on the wiki. They used to be red units on red background, but now they are on green background to make them more visible. Also, added new units like Vipers, Creepers and Defilers.
Is mech still viable in PvT? I think we need to figure this out first since there has been recent changes in toss. Bio is probably not too viable atm, and I don't think that is our main concern either.
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On July 01 2013 01:50 Xiphias wrote:
Updated zerg photos on the wiki.
Nice! These ones looks much better.
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Is mech still viable in PvT? I think we need to figure this out first since there has been recent changes in toss.
No. The 3 second reduction in stalker build time absolutely killed mech in that matchup. ^^
Anyway, I feel that something has to be done about SV's. Espeically in tvz they are incredibly strong, and bio + sv's makes mutas an unviable unit in that matchup. I don't think a devourer counter to sv's is enough, because bio + sv's can hit earlier. I will suggest to reduce its DPS somewhat.
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On July 01 2013 03:26 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Is mech still viable in PvT? I think we need to figure this out first since there has been recent changes in toss. No. The 3 second reduction in stalker build time absolutely killed mech in that matchup. ^^ Anyway, I feel that something has to be done about SV's. Espeically in tvz they are incredibly strong, and bio + sv's makes mutas an unviable unit in that matchup. I don't think a devourer counter to sv's is enough, because bio + sv's can hit earlier. I will suggest to reduce its DPS somewhat.
I think Plague and Scourge are the way to go against vessels. Maybe abduct, though anytime you abduct a vessel you should lose the viper as well to an irradiate if the Terran pays attention.
But I generally agree, SVs are incredible catch all units against zerg. The only reason not to irradiate a zerg unit upon sight is that there may even be a better target. (or if it is an overlord or a stray zergling, to end the exaggeration)
btw, what are irradiate's stats at the moment. The wiki says:
Irradiate
Energy: 75
Range:
Duration: 35 s
Irradiates a single target for 35 seconds, causing X damage every second to that target and to all nearby targets. Irradiate does not damage mechanical untis, but nearby biological units will take damage from an Irradiated mechanical unit
So range and the damage/second are missing.
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On July 01 2013 05:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 03:26 Hider wrote:Is mech still viable in PvT? I think we need to figure this out first since there has been recent changes in toss. No. The 3 second reduction in stalker build time absolutely killed mech in that matchup. ^^ Anyway, I feel that something has to be done about SV's. Espeically in tvz they are incredibly strong, and bio + sv's makes mutas an unviable unit in that matchup. I don't think a devourer counter to sv's is enough, because bio + sv's can hit earlier. I will suggest to reduce its DPS somewhat. I think Plague and Scourge are the way to go against vessels. Maybe abduct, though anytime you abduct a vessel you should lose the viper as well to an irradiate if the Terran pays attention. But I generally agree, SVs are incredible catch all units against zerg. The only reason not to irradiate a zerg unit upon sight is that there may even be a better target. (or if it is an overlord or a stray zergling, to end the exaggeration) btw, what are irradiate's stats at the moment. The wiki says: Show nested quote +Irradiate
Energy: 75
Range:
Duration: 35 s
Irradiates a single target for 35 seconds, causing X damage every second to that target and to all nearby targets. Irradiate does not damage mechanical untis, but nearby biological units will take damage from an Irradiated mechanical unit
So range and the damage/second are missing.
I really don't think you can afford anything tech heavy in the midgame vs SV/bio in the midgame. It is such a ridicilous cost efficient composition. If you go vipers for abduxt, then you also need hydras and lurkers and you can't really afford that, cus then your main army will be absolutely shit.
I think just going bling --> hive or lurker/ling --> hive is probably the best choices. Then you'll mix in scourges once you get on 4-5 bases.
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On July 01 2013 05:33 Big J wrote:
btw, what are irradiate's stats at the moment. The wiki says:
From reading the stats in the map editor my guess would be that it does 7 damage per second. But I'm really not sure if I'm reading it right, so I left it empty.
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I read the same and changed it to 7 right now, but it's 35 sec so that adds up to a total of 245 dmg which might be wrong. If it's true, it's too much. I don't think one irr should kill one lurker, but leave it almost dead like in BW.
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On July 01 2013 06:14 Xiphias wrote:
I read the same and changed it to 7 right now, but it's 35 sec so that adds up to a total of 245 dmg which might be wrong. If it's true, it's too much. I don't think one irr should kill one lurker, but leave it almost dead like in BW.
Wait it didn't kill lurkers in bw?
Then why did we have all these discussions about why irradiate was OP in starbow and not in bw? Just nerf it ASAP. Due to smartcast it definitely shouldn't be better than in bw.
Regarding blink: I think it breakes tvp at the moment. 2/3 base blink stalkers makes it absolutely impossible for the terran to move out regardless of whether he plays bio or mech. It may be possible for him to defend if he plays perfectly, but the dynamic it creates isn't good for the game as it means that you never wanna do anything else vs terran than going blink.
I think adding a templar tech requirement for blink research would be the most effective change as it would result in given the terran bio player at least a period where he could do some damage to the opponent. Also, since reaver openings in general seems stronger than templar openings, this would protoss's slighly more incentivied to get templars over reavers in the midgame.
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On July 01 2013 06:33 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 06:14 Xiphias wrote:
I read the same and changed it to 7 right now, but it's 35 sec so that adds up to a total of 245 dmg which might be wrong. If it's true, it's too much. I don't think one irr should kill one lurker, but leave it almost dead like in BW. Wait it didn't kill lurkers in bw? Then why did we have all these discussions about why irradiate was OP in starbow and not in bw? Just nerf it ASAP. Due to smartcast it definitely shouldn't be better than in bw. Regarding blink: I think it breakes tvp at the moment. 2/3 base blink stalkers makes it absolutely impossible for the terran to move out regardless of whether he plays bio or mech. It may be possible for him to defend if he plays perfectly, but the dynamic it creates isn't good for the game as it means that you never wanna do anything else vs terran than going blink. I think adding a templar tech requirement for blink research would be the most effective change as it would result in given the terran bio player at least a period where he could do some damage to the opponent. Also, since reaver openings in general seems stronger than templar openings, this would protoss's slighly more incentivied to get templars over reavers in the midgame.
give it a night's rest and try again tomorrow, wont be as bad as it looks now.
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On July 01 2013 07:29 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 06:33 Hider wrote:On July 01 2013 06:14 Xiphias wrote:
I read the same and changed it to 7 right now, but it's 35 sec so that adds up to a total of 245 dmg which might be wrong. If it's true, it's too much. I don't think one irr should kill one lurker, but leave it almost dead like in BW. Wait it didn't kill lurkers in bw? Then why did we have all these discussions about why irradiate was OP in starbow and not in bw? Just nerf it ASAP. Due to smartcast it definitely shouldn't be better than in bw. Regarding blink: I think it breakes tvp at the moment. 2/3 base blink stalkers makes it absolutely impossible for the terran to move out regardless of whether he plays bio or mech. It may be possible for him to defend if he plays perfectly, but the dynamic it creates isn't good for the game as it means that you never wanna do anything else vs terran than going blink. I think adding a templar tech requirement for blink research would be the most effective change as it would result in given the terran bio player at least a period where he could do some damage to the opponent. Also, since reaver openings in general seems stronger than templar openings, this would protoss's slighly more incentivied to get templars over reavers in the midgame. give it a night's rest and try again tomorrow, wont be as bad as it looks now.
The protoss can still force the terran to defend for such a long period regardless of whether he goes bio or tank, Meanwhile the protoss can expand like a zerg player, which gives him an advantage going into lategame. Thus teching quickly to blink stalkers will always be optimal for the protoss player. Later blink tech will add much more variation into the game and actually give the terran bio player a chance to put pressure on the opponent in the early midgame.
Right now there doesn't seem to be any downside to get early blink and mass stalkers.
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The topic that ruins my sleep
Sumadin, you haunt me. In every game you say "Bio without Marauders will never ever work in TvP or TvT."
I say: "Pffftt... nonsens."
You continue.
I continue.
Convinced that I am right in this matter.
But I have been wrong so many times before.
So I have decided to give your constant echo a chance.
I sat down with pen and paper and pondered over some solutions.
Lets play with the thought:
What would happen with the game if the Marauder, after all, was added to the game in some modified version?
Problems I see right away:
- A-move into Lurker lines would be too good.
- Would still not make bio work in TvT since Spider mines + Tanks are so brutal
- Bio would still be hard countered by Reavers
- Would force Force Field back into the game. Otherwise Stalkers would not stand a chance
- Big blobs of Marauders just stimming and killing everything...
Must it be like this?
Is it possible to adjust the Marauder so it fits into the game and actually adds something good to the gameplay?
A potential solution:
Marauder
Cost 75/25 <--- (Cheaper than in SC2!)
Build time 30-35 seconds
HP 80 <--- (125 in SC2)
Armored
Armor 1
Damage 8 vs all, ca 12-14 vs armored (Compare to SC2 where they deal 10 vs all, 20 vs armored!)
Attack cooldown 1.5 seconds
Speed 2.25
Range 4 or 5.
Require tech lab?
Ok, what would these stats do?
- Lurkers 4 shot them, so A-move into them would still be hard. (As it should be!)
- They are cost efficent vs Stalkers, and can actually apply pressure vs P early, but they are NOT insanely strong!
- They would help Terran early Bio stronger in TvT, since Marauders would be able to fight vs the early Vultures/Tanks.
(It would be harder once Terran reaches a high enough number of Siege tanks.)
What units would Marauders do extra damage versus?
- Tanks, Goliaths, Marauders, Stalkers, Archons, Reaver, Queen, Lurker, Ultralisk, Structures (including Static defence...)
The extra toughness from the Marauders would help Terran bio to apply pressure vs all races.
What countes the Marauder?
- Tanks, Spider mines, Marines, Zealots, Storm, Reaver, Lurker, Hydra, Zergling, Flying units.
But what about TvT? Marauders will die just like Marines when they attack into Siege tanks...
- Well, sieged Siege tanks, Spider mines and Lurkers are supposed to be strong at that area.
But if we want Marauders to NOT be completely worthless, maybe some kind of upgrade can be added that reduces splash damage by a value. This would make them able to survive 2-shots from a Reaver, 3-shots from a tank, 2 spider mines etc. Still not super strong in a straight up fight, but not ridiculously fragile like Marines...
What would the total picture of Bio be?
- Marines are low HP, high DPS.
- Reaper are fast, fragile, strong vs light units. (Especially with splash upgrade.)
- Marauders are high HP, decent DPS vs armored. (Best bio alternative vs armored units.)
- Medics are supporter. Heal and can use Matrix on any unit.
- Ghosts are disable/harassment.
Maybe stats must be modified a little bit so we reach this scenario:
- Marauders have best DPS vs armored.
- Reapers have best DPS vs light.
- Marines have best DPS vs "medium" units. (For example lower their damage vs all from 6 to 5.)
The optimal scenario would be if each bio unit was truly useful for different purposes.
Otherwise Marines might still be the strongest bio counter versus every unit since they have superior DPS vs everything!
But what about the larger gameplay picture? Would this not break everything?
Are blobs of Marines unstoppable? I would say no.
If we keep the Marauder at decent stats, the same units/spells that counter mass Marines will counter Marauders too.
For example Reavers, Storm, Zealots, Lurkers, Ensnare, Plague etc..
I don´t think mass Marines + Marauders will be viable all game long. If the enemy races have proper ways of countering this, then Terran MUST add in other units into their mix. Just as we see in TvP where Terran opens Bio: It works, but later on they must get Tanks + Vessels. Maybe Vikings. If they don¨t, Protoss will get an insane advantage with Reavers, Storm, Archons etc.
Conclusion: A modified version of the Marauder would be the needed extra punch to Bio in all match-ups.
If we are careful with the balance, Marauders will not break the game.
Ok Sumadin. I gave you a fair chance. I examined the possibilities of this unit.
Now it is up to the judges who read this thread:
- Thoughts on this?
- Would this be a much needed piece of the puzzle?
- Is this good enough in theory to make it worth trying in the game?!
- Possible adjustements to the above?
The fundamental question is;
Shall we try to balance the game with the Marauder in it,
or shall we try to balance the game without the Marauder?
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I am against, sorry. It's either gonna end up as an expensive marine or a sc2-like marauders that just breaks everything.
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On July 01 2013 08:43 Kabel wrote:
The topic that ruins my sleep
Sumadin, you haunt me. In every game you say "Bio without Marauders will never ever work."
I say: "Pffftt... nonsens."
You continue.
I continue.
Convinced that I am right in this matter.
But I have been wrong so many times before.
So I have decided to give your constant echo a chance.
I sat down with pen and paper and pondered over some solutions.
Lets play with the thought:
What would happen with the game if the Marauder, after all, was added to the game in some modified version?
Problems I see right away:
- A-move into Lurker lines would be too good.
- Would still not make bio work in TvT since Spider mines + Tanks are so brutal
- Bio would still be hard countered by Reavers
- Would force Force Field back into the game. Otherwise Stalkers would not stand a chance
- Big blobs of Marauders just stimming and killing everything...
Must it be like this?
Is it possible to adjust the Marauder so it fits into the game and actually adds something good to the gameplay?
A potential solution:
Marauder
Cost 75/25 <--- (Cheaper than in SC2!)
Build time 30-35 seconds
HP 80 <--- (125 in SC2)
Armored
Armor 1
Damage 8 vs all, ca 12-14 vs armored (Compare to SC2 where they deal 10 vs all, 20 vs armored!)
Attack cooldown 1.5 seconds
Speed 2.25
Range 4 or 5.
Require tech lab?
Ok, what would these stats do?
- Lurkers 4 shot them, so A-move into them would still be hard. (As it should be!)
- They are cost efficent vs Stalkers, and can actually apply pressure vs P early, but they are NOT insanely strong!
- They would help Terran early Bio stronger in TvT, since Marauders would be able to fight vs the early Vultures/Tanks.
(It would be harder once Terran reaches a high enough number of Siege tanks.)
What units would Marauders do extra damage versus?
- Tanks, Goliaths, Marauders, Stalkers, Archons, Reaver, Queen, Lurker, Ultralisk, Structures (including Static defence...)
The extra toughness from the Marauders would help Terran bio to apply pressure vs all races.
What countes the Marauder?
- Tanks, Spider mines, Marines, Zealots, Storm, Reaver, Lurker, Hydra, Zergling, Flying units.
But what about TvT? Marauders will die just like Marines when they attack into Siege tanks...
- Well, sieged Siege tanks, Spider mines and Lurkers are supposed to be strong at that area.
But if we want Marauders to NOT be completely worthless, maybe some kind of upgrade can be added that reduces splash damage by a value. This would make them able to survive 2-shots from a Reaver, 3-shots from a tank, 2 spider mines etc. Still not super strong in a straight up fight, but not ridiculously fragile like Marines...
What would the total picture of Bio be?
- Marines are low HP, high DPS.
- Reaper are fast, fragile, strong vs light units. (Especially with splash upgrade.)
- Marauders are high HP, decent DPS vs armored. (Best bio alternative vs armored units.)
- Medics are supporter. Heal and can use Matrix on any unit.
- Ghosts are disable/harassment.
Maybe stats must be modified a little bit so we reach this scenario:
- Marauders have best DPS vs armored.
- Reapers have best DPS vs light.
- Marines have best DPS vs "medium" units. (For example lower their damage vs all from 6 to 5.)
The optimal scenario would be if each bio unit was truly useful for different purposes.
Otherwise Marines might still be the strongest bio counter versus every unit since they have superior DPS vs everything!
But what about the larger gameplay picture? Would this not break everything?
Are blobs of Marines unstoppable? I would say no.
If we keep the Marauder at decent stats, the same units/spells that counter mass Marines will counter Marauders too.
For example Reavers, Storm, Zealots, Lurkers, Ensnare, Plague etc..
I don´t think mass Marines + Marauders will be viable all game long. If the enemy races have proper ways of countering this, then Terran MUST add in other units into their mix. Just as we see in TvP where Terran opens Bio: It works, but later on they must get Tanks + Vessels. Maybe Vikings. If they don¨t, Protoss will get an insane advantage with Reavers, Storm, Archons etc.
Conclusion: A modified version of the Marauder would be the needed extra punch to Bio in all match-ups.
If we are careful with the balance, Marauders will not break the game.
Ok Sumadin. I gave you a fair chance. I examined the possibilities of this unit.
Now it is up to the judges who read this thread:
- Thoughts on this?
- Would this be a much needed piece of the puzzle?
- Is this good enough in theory to make it worth trying in the game?!
- Possible adjustements to the above?
I am kinda in the same booth as you are as I don't believe that maurauders in sc2 adds any extra elements to the game besides balancining bio in various matchups. You simply micro marines similarly to how you micro maurauders in every situation (except against banelings). At this point though, it feels like there are so many problems with the bio viability that it may just be easier to implement some kind of modified version as you suggested Kabel..
When that is said, I don't think that suggeston can work. Blink stalkers will likely still tear through it. For maurauders to do damage vs blink stalkers they need at least 5-6 range and concussive shell (with stim likely). 4-5 range with 80 HP and no concussive shell won't work.
Maybe consider this; 4 range, 11 damage vs armored, 8 vs light, 80 HP but like a 25% damage reduction against ranged attacks. This will make the DPS of the stalkers against maurauders quite bad. So a protoss player massing blink stalkers early midgame will be punished unless he manually is capable of target firing marines while avoiding taking damage from the maurauders (which will be ridicilously difficult). Instead, I think he will find it neccesary to mix in more zealots. Zealots will now be a stronger meatshield as the average damage of the bio force against zealots have been reduced.
But the marine/maurauder vs stalker/zealot battle will (unlike in sc2) be a quite fair matchup and micro is heavily rewarded for both players. The terran player will try to target fire the stalkers with the mauruaders and the zealots with the marines while using the maurauders as meatshield while simultanously kiting.
Protoss will be trying to avoid maurauder target firing with stalkers, possibly block the pathes with the zealots or use some interesting stalker blink micro.
Even though I also expect that the damage reduction will work against reavers and lurkers, I don't think the maurauder (with those stats) will be anywhere near strong to to just attack-move against them.
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Yeah in terms of uniqueness, Marauders and Marines overlap. I generally do not like when units feel similar, especially in the way they are controlled. They do not add any extra elements either,,, It is kinda a balance band aid solution.. : /
But after all, would this unit make the match-ups, balance and parts of the gameplay better?
If so, what stats can be possible?
(I know this discussion emerged late in the development, but I can not drop it completely, due to Sumadins constants comments ^^ )
Ps. I do NOT say I will force the Marauder into the game. I just play with the possibility.
But the marine/maurauder vs stalker/zealot battle will (unlike in sc2) be a quite fair matchup and micro is heavily rewarded for both players. The terran player will try to target fire the stalkers with the mauruaders and the zealots with the marines while using the maurauders as meatshield while simultanously kiting.
Protoss will be trying to avoid maurauder target firing with stalkers, possibly block the pathes with the zealots or use some interesting stalker blink micro.
IF we manage to reach an interesting scenario like this,,, well,, what would we lose?
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On July 01 2013 09:13 Kabel wrote:Yeah in terms of uniqueness, Marauders and Marines overlap. I generally do not like when units feel similar, especially in the way they are controlled. They do not add any extra elements either,,, It is kinda a balance band aid solution.. : / But after all, would this unit make the match-ups, balance and parts of the gameplay better? If so, what stats can be possible? (I know this discussion emerged late in the development, but I can not drop it completely, due to Sumadins constants comments ^^ ) Ps. I do NOT say I will force the Marauder into the game. I just play with the possibility. Show nested quote +
But the marine/maurauder vs stalker/zealot battle will (unlike in sc2) be a quite fair matchup and micro is heavily rewarded for both players. The terran player will try to target fire the stalkers with the mauruaders and the zealots with the marines while using the maurauders as meatshield while simultanously kiting.
Protoss will be trying to avoid maurauder target firing with stalkers, possibly block the pathes with the zealots or use some interesting stalker blink micro.
IF we manage to reach an interesting scenario like this,,, well,, what would we lose?
I think the only real potential downside is whether it will be too good vs lurkers. Against lurkers it will have an effective HP of 100, a damage of 11 and a range of 4. Since lurkers aren't particularly good vs terran at the moment, an indirect nerf may not be optimal. But if SV's gets nerfed somehow as well, then it may be okay afterall.
And btw, at this point I think we can just remove the ghost from the game. We could, however, consider to keep the nuke in the game somehow.
Crazy idea: What about giving a modified version of it to the BC? That will make the BC an interesting unit in the late game.
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And btw, at this point I think we can just remove the ghost from the game. We could, however, consider to keep the nuke in the game somehow.
Crazy idea: What about giving a modified version of it to the BC? That will make the BC an interesting unit in the late game.
Woah, I think both you and me needs to sleep at this point...
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EPT
