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The new patch will be up within the next three days.
Here is a reminder of the stuff I consider to do with the next patch:
+ Show Spoiler +- Corsairs micro become reworked so few can fight vs large flock of Mutas. (With good micro.) December has sent me a solution: - Stalker gains +1 damage again. - Charge becomes a passive bonus again. (December is looking at it.) - Archon damage up from 25 vs all to 35 vs all - Lair takes an extra 25 seconds to morph into. - Reduce cost of Warp Prism from 200 to 150 minerals. (Allows more early Protoss pressure.) - Reduce cost of Protoss tech structures (Robotic facility and Stargate) by 50 minerals. (Enables more different tech openings) - Sentinel gets a new fix. (Still under discussion.) - Adjust gas values. (Turns out that the current gas value was a miss calculation and is actually a very dramatic reduction in gas income for all races.) Possible other adjustements:Stalkers are built 2-3 seconds faster. (They are currently weaker now) Mutalisks damage per bounce get reverted to the original values. (They are currently higher.) Psi Storm is too weak?
Please continue to suggest exact changes, and why they are necessary. Also critise my values if you think they do not make sense at all. PvZ is currently the biggest concern?
Ps. Do not miss to discuss the Sentinel: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=310#6199
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Okay i don't still agree with Stalkers getting a Raw +1 damage. We still don't want stalkers to be ultimate answer to any late game unit.
The units in question that are giving protoss issues are mainly hydras and mutas. Both of which are medium armored units. If we just increased the damage of stalkers vs medium armor we could archive our goals for PvZ without messing too much with other matchups. Stalkers seems to be doing fine vs any armored unit, say behaps the lurker. No need to increase there damage vs that.
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On June 29 2013 18:31 Kabel wrote:The new patch will be up within the next three days.
Here is a reminder of the stuff I consider to do with the next patch: + Show Spoiler +- Corsairs micro become reworked so few can fight vs large flock of Mutas. (With good micro.) December has sent me a solution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vroNBRyJdNs&feature=c4-overview&list=UUhnRvWJRXAYYO5XqoA-iHww- Stalker gains +1 damage again. - Charge becomes a passive bonus again. (December is looking at it.) - Archon damage up from 25 vs all to 35 vs all - Lair takes an extra 25 seconds to morph into. - Reduce cost of Warp Prism from 200 to 150 minerals. (Allows more early Protoss pressure.) - Reduce cost of Protoss tech structures (Robotic facility and Stargate) by 50 minerals. (Enables more different tech openings) - Sentinel gets a new fix. (Still under discussion.) - Adjust gas values. (Turns out that the current gas value was a miss calculation and is actually a very dramatic reduction in gas income for all races.) Possible other adjustements:Stalkers are built 2-3 seconds faster. (They are currently weaker now) Mutalisks damage per bounce get reverted to the original values. (They are currently higher.) Psi Storm is too weak? Please continue to suggest exact changes, and why they are necessary. Also critise my values if you think they do not make sense at all. PvZ is currently the biggest concern? Ps. Do not miss to discuss the Sentinel: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=310#6199
Sounds cool. Yeh I did sense that gas income was pretty bad.
I think psi storm is clearly an inferior choice to reavers, would be nice if you could have position 1-2 HT's at certain expansions to defend against counterattacks. Right now, that doesn't feel worth it.
But please don't forget terran in terms of costs of production structures. Starport also wants to be cheaper 
I also fear that these changes will make warp prism all ins too strong. I suggested to make warp in an upgrade available at robo bay to make allins less strong. Alternatively, one could consider increasing build time of warp tech even further.
Okay i don't still agree with Stalkers getting a Raw +1 damage. We still don't want stalkers to be ultimate answer to any late game unit.
I agree, Blink stalker/reaver works absolutely fine against zerg lair tech. On the other hand Solid only used zealots for harass against me (didn't have them in main army). So I think the problem is more likely to lie with the zealot instead of the stalker. I would still like to see zealots be a slightly stronger meathshield, and it actually surprised me that the +20 HP zealot didn't work out. Does anyone have specific replays which demonstrates the imbalance of the +20 HP zealots?
One could also consider to reduce the DPS slightly of the zealot if early game zealot pressure is too strong, and instead increase its HP significantly to make it better as a mid/late game buffer unit.
The units in question that are giving protoss issues are mainly hydras and mutas. Both of which are medium armored units. If we just increased the damage of stalkers vs medium armor we could archive our goals for PvZ without messing too much with other matchups. Stalkers seems to be doing fine vs any armored unit, say behaps the lurker. No need to increase there damage vs that.
If Ht's gets buffed, then hydras will likely be a lot worse as they will suck vs both storm and reavers.
Muta already get a bouncenerf.
I don't think a further stalker buff is needed.
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@Stalker damage
It currently deals 11 vs light, 13 vs all, 15 vs armored.
Light units:
Workers
Zerglings,
Marines,
Zealots
High Templar
Dark Templar
"Normal" armor:
Hydra
Mutalisk
Corsair
Reaper
Medic
Ghost
Vulture
Viking
Dropship
Armored units
Siege tank
Goliath
Lurker
Ultralisk
Stalker
Reaver
Carrier
BC
Guardian/Devourer
Scout
Vessel
Structures
Ok, better suggestion for the Stalker damage?
(Sumadin has suggested a flat damage value vs all, and -4 vs light.)
Maybe 14 vs all, -4 vs light?
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On June 29 2013 18:31 Kabel wrote:The new patch will be up within the next three days.
Here is a reminder of the stuff I consider to do with the next patch: + Show Spoiler +- Corsairs micro become reworked so few can fight vs large flock of Mutas. (With good micro.) December has sent me a solution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vroNBRyJdNs&feature=c4-overview&list=UUhnRvWJRXAYYO5XqoA-iHww- Stalker gains +1 damage again. - Charge becomes a passive bonus again. (December is looking at it.) - Archon damage up from 25 vs all to 35 vs all - Lair takes an extra 25 seconds to morph into. - Reduce cost of Warp Prism from 200 to 150 minerals. (Allows more early Protoss pressure.) - Reduce cost of Protoss tech structures (Robotic facility and Stargate) by 50 minerals. (Enables more different tech openings) - Sentinel gets a new fix. (Still under discussion.) - Adjust gas values. (Turns out that the current gas value was a miss calculation and is actually a very dramatic reduction in gas income for all races.) Possible other adjustements:Stalkers are built 2-3 seconds faster. (They are currently weaker now) Mutalisks damage per bounce get reverted to the original values. (They are currently higher.) Psi Storm is too weak? Please continue to suggest exact changes, and why they are necessary. Also critise my values if you think they do not make sense at all. PvZ is currently the biggest concern? Ps. Do not miss to discuss the Sentinel: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=310#6199
Good stuff!
Yeah, psi storm doesn't feel too strong in defense and in offence it's not too hard to keep baiting them out, i feel reavers are superior in every possible way, since you can only decently use storm vs muta's if the zerg is caught off guard and not looking at them. Biggest problem is that it's too easy to dodge.
Oh and something small, for some reason it takes ages to kill an overseer with a corsair (2 damage per shot or something?). I also dislike the fact that a morphing overlord that is nearly dead just pops up with full hp when morph into overseer is complete, that's so annoying when trying to kill them with a stalker in earlygame.
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Ok, better suggestion for the Stalker damage?
Keep them unchanged. I don't think its particularly fun if protoss has a very mobile unit which is also cost efficient. Instead, reward players for psy storming and using zealots as meat-shield.
Coming to think of it. A +20 HP buff to zealots would actually make it a lot easier for the protoss to take an early 3rd which will make the midgame balanced. Right now, they can't do it due to the fear of being ling rushed. Stronger zealots would help reduce the severity of that problem. At least it would make something like 2gate --> robo --> 9 minute 3rd, at lot more viable.
Unless it was clear that the +20 HP buff got reverted due to imbalances (and not becauase zerg players made mistakes), then it would be awesome if it get reimplemented.
Another possible fix: If pre 7 minute zealot pressure is too strong with +20 HP, then we could give make it an upgrade which had to be researched at cybercore. Thus the protoss would then be able to use the buffy zealot to secure a 3rd but not to do imbalanced pressure builds.
Also I forgot to give props to Dec. Moving shot looks pretty cool.
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+20 zealots gave us the "2 gate impossible to hold cost-effectively early push vs zerg". Believe me it was broken. Cheaper tech, maybe stronger stalkers and a useful sentinel with added time to lair should do the trick I think.
Let's talk a little bit about strategy as well. One-base two-gate pressure (make em love ground so you can expand behind) strait up kills a 9-pool zerg unless he defends like a god.
You can easily punish a late pool (13, 14 ish) by just making canons in the zerg's nat. You usually go forge first anyways.
Just throwing out some possibilities here. I think we sometimes want to change the game towards our game-style instead of chancing our game-style to go with the game.
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reapers in pvt, good god, even with the quickest gate, a reaper was in my base when my stalker was 1/5th done, please fix that shit.
Also slight nerf to its damage vs light.
And yes, props to dec for the corsairs!
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Yea 14 vs all -4 light could be good to try out. It is a -1 vs light and armored but armored units are either units that stalkers would usually overkill as they have to blink forward and snipe them off (Tanks, Lurkers), or units so high tier that we ultimately shouldn't want stalkers to be able to counter them in the long run(Carriers, Battlecruisers). The light units includes everything we really don't want stalkers to counter. Seems like a decent change.
The buff to medium armor is a buff to the units that stalkers currently struggles against(Muta, Hydra) as well the units we want stalkers to deal with(Viking, Dropship) aswell as those we don't really care much about(Ghost, Medic)
It could also be 15 with -4 to all. This is a +2 to medium but changes nothing vs Light or Armored.
Btw since getting holidays i have been fooling around with the editor. This is an early concept for a map i am making. It utilizes the bridges from the campaign. Think it is something we could use?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 29 2013 21:34 Xiphias wrote:
+20 zealots gave us the "2 gate impossible to hold cost-effectively early push vs zerg". Believe me it was broken. Cheaper tech, maybe stronger stalkers and a useful sentinel with added time to lair should do the trick I think.
Let's talk a little bit about strategy as well. One-base two-gate pressure (make em love ground so you can expand behind) strait up kills a 9-pool zerg unless he defends like a god.
You can easily punish a late pool (13, 14 ish) by just making canons in the zerg's nat. You usually go forge first anyways.
Just throwing out some possibilities here. I think we sometimes want to change the game towards our game-style instead of chancing our game-style to go with the game.
Easily fixed with an upgrade at cybercore (as I poined out in my prevoius post).
Why would you buff stalkers instead of zealots? They are already superor to zealots in the mid/late game in all matchups. Secondly, buffing stalkers just a tad won't really be enough to counter heavy ling pressure. Instead, a zealot upgrade buff will be a lot more efficient in making it possible for toss to take an early 3rd which is neccesary to stay on even foot.
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On June 29 2013 21:44 SolidSMD wrote:
reapers in pvt, good god, even with the quickest gate, a reaper was in my base when my stalker was 1/5th done, please fix that shit.
Also slight nerf to its damage vs light.
And yes, props to dec for the corsairs!
We played a bit more. This is mostly a map issue I think. Close spawns on starridge is completely broken. Please make it cross only. When that is said, reapers could also use a further +5 second build time.
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i'm against another upgrade on cybercore, warpgates + range already takes a long while to get out.
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I think nerfing mutas (without giving them better health regeneration) will make them quite useless in tvz. Marines kinda tear through them pretty decently.
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On June 30 2013 00:14 SolidSMD wrote:
i'm against another upgrade on cybercore, warpgates + range already takes a long while to get out.
Its inteded as quick (60 second upgrade) at like 50/50. There is no downside to it. You don't have to get it. But you can if you want to use zealots in the midgame.
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All you need to have useful zealots is old charge. They were great meatshields already, and cheap and useful harassment tool.
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Hooray! I can now fix a patch for the evening!
This is what I have done so far:
- Stalkers are built 3 seconds faster. (42 seconds instead of 45.)
- Corsairs work as in the video posted above.
- Zealots have permanent speed charge. (With a tiny acceleration modification so enemy units are able to micro vs them.)
- Archon damage up from 25 to 30 vs all.
- Phase Missile drains 100 energy instead of 75.
- Overseers do not gain full life when morphed.
- Lair takes an extra 25 seconds to morph into.
- Warp Prism cost reduced from 200 to 150 minerals.
- Protoss tech structures (Robotic facility and Stargate) cost is reduced by 50 minerals.
- Psi Storm damage increased from 80 over 3 seconds, to 96 over 4 seconds.
- Gas is collected at the "correct" values.
- Sentinel reworked.
(It is cheaper, has an attack vs ground units only that deals 8 dmg per second, it starts with the spell Rupture and can upgrade Safeguard. This is not the final solution. I consider to do some rework of the Null Ward, but it requires more time.
I plan to let the Sentinel be like this in this patch so we can try how it works with an attack.)
Stuff I doubt/consider:
- Change Stalker damage or just let it be?
- Nerf Mutalisk bounce damage? (Is it necessary?)
Any last words before I upload this patch for the evening?
Finally can I come online and play again!
Ps. I will not add any extra new stuff like Zealot upgrade for life, Dark Templar upgrade or something else. If needed, it will come in later patches.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 29 2013 21:44 SolidSMD wrote:
reapers in pvt, good god, even with the quickest gate, a reaper was in my base when my stalker was 1/5th done, please fix that shit.
post a replay? my stalker often comes exactly when reaper jumps on my base
On June 29 2013 16:55 Big J wrote:
Dark Swarm isn't simple: It has very special rules against what it works and against what not. The splash part of an attack is still done, but the rest is not. Ranged attacks are affected but melee is not.
Wait, you just described dark swarm:
> Dark Swarm - Units in it dont receieve ranged dmg
On June 29 2013 16:55 Big J wrote:
D-Matrix isn't simple: It creates a HP shield
and u just described D-matrix.
> D-Matrix - adds HP to unit
On June 29 2013 16:55 Big J wrote:
Mealstrom and Irradiate directly counter bio units and nothing else. Yamato Gun is hardly useful against anything but bigass targets, same for lockdown, mindcontrol and broodlings. Feedback is a caster counter.
None of those spells seemed to be directly designed for harass. But they surely had some spells with specific roles. Just as I pointed out in the three sentences above.
sorry but i said "specific units", i meant u cant make a spell for countering vultures or scourges, or workers. all bio is enough or all casters or big targets (FYI yamato mostly have uses vs meduim targets such as vikings)
Easy to learn (or - to use), hard to get pro, thats what is working.
You can make ur spell deal %-based dmg to targets with highest HP only at 4 minimum range - but this should feel easy to use.
So lets see our problem spells through this:
Null ward - it is not easy to use, at first you need to bring your sentinel to position where u want to place them, then u need to wait when it activates and then u get enemy units slowly dmged.
and on other side:
Manual Zealot Charge - is it easy to use? yes, and its not complicated. But this one is too easy, it have only small cooldown and small reward, this is one side of bad spells.
and a good spell: Nerve jammer. Compared to null ward - placed jammer is catastrophic for my army. Both players should react fast to this and this is good.
It is easy to use, just 1 click, it is easy to counter, it is powerful
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Breed seems really underpowered at the moment. I feel like its ridiclously bad in a straight up battle. Only if you find your self in a straight up battle where you have max energy on all vipers, and use all the energy you have in the battle, and the opponent even though he can easily see what you are doing, chooses to attack straight into just as the breeds have been morphed, is breed somewhat clsoe to being cost effective.
While it does have some utility as an harass unit, I think its just way too expensinsive. To harass I have to do all these steps;
1) Get A viper nest.
2) Get Consume upgrade.
3) Get Breed upgrade.
4) Consume my own buildings.
5) Direct my vipers into a certain location on the map.
6) use them a bit outside the range of one my opponents bases.
7) Hope my opponents has no defense to kill the breeds.
8) Viper useless for next 2-3 minutes.
Like all these steps for such a small payoff is just not even close to worth it. I think you should do this;
1) Viper cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/100.
2) Abduct an upgrade at tier 3.
3) Breed and consume are no longer required to be researched.
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The patch above has been uploaed on EU.
I will be online in ca 15 minutes, if anyone wanna play.
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Well. Breed was too imba but I think the nerf hammer was too hard
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vcmL2vV.jpg)
