EPTThe only thing that goes against this principle in starcraft is creep tumors, and thats hard as fock to manage.
[A] Starbow - Page 310
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Weerwolf
75 Posts
The only thing that goes against this principle in starcraft is creep tumors, and thats hard as fock to manage. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
Would you mind cleaning the posts up a bit more because I don't fully understand it. Thanks in advance. The most important thing (imo) is that when a user drops something onto the battlefield, it should be clear in what it does and should be simple. A prerequisite for this is that the drop itself does not have abilities that needs to be activated with it. The potential issue with having to activate stuff is that it makes stuff to hard for lower league players. But obv. that is easily fixable by a manual/automatic mode. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 28 2013 20:17 Hider wrote: Big J: I am a bit confused. Are those seperate suggestions? Would you mind cleaning the posts up a bit more because I don't fully understand it. Thanks in advance. Yup. Basically 3 different suggestions based upon the idea of a nullward that does lifepercentage damage around itself in an area and how to do it so that it fullfills (most of) most of the goals we have for it. (edit: lol. and the stasis one isn't even based upon that  )I tried to make the post a little cleaner, but it's a chain of thought that just developed into some directions, so it's a little hard. I should have probably just done the suggestions, but my initiative for the post was that list at the beginning, to get clear about the direction into which we want the nullward to go. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Just gonna say that I will give the Sentinel some kind of attack. As I have already mentioned. But please continue to brainstorm a potential solution for the unit. We need to reach something strong enough in theory, so its worth to try it in the game. I remind you of my second draft for the Sentinel: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=308#6160 Some good ideas have already been presented by you all in the thread. Please continue to improve it. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
i remember good old bw spells: * they're simple and powerful * they dont directly reward micro * they dont directly counter specific units * they dont designed for specific role such as harras they just do their job, fast and deadly, not like "lets do %-based dmg with activation time and dancing around it for 5 mins so enemy could micro against them" | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 29 2013 04:57 Fen1kz wrote: Uhhh, i think some of you overcomplicating things with null ward. i remember good old bw spells: * they're simple and powerful * they dont directly reward micro * they dont directly counter specific units * they dont designed for specific role such as harras they just do their job, fast and deadly, not like "lets do %-based dmg with activation time and dancing around it for 5 mins so enemy could micro against them" neither of those points is really true, I could give counterexamples to each of them | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 29 2013 02:05 Kabel wrote: I'm in a hurry today and will not have time to reply to anything major in this thread, nor to any PMs. Just got a few minutes left at the computer before I need to go again. I did read through what you all have written so far. Just gonna say that I will give the Sentinel some kind of attack. As I have already mentioned. But please continue to brainstorm a potential solution for the unit. We need to reach something strong enough in theory, so its worth to try it in the game. I remind you of my second draft for the Sentinel: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=308#6160 Some good ideas have already been presented by you all in the thread. Please continue to improve it. I must have missed it. How much damage will it do? What about range? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This is the last major design headache I have. I will be very happy if we find a natural home in the game for this unit. I consider to make it a quite cheap unit. (50 minerals / 100 gas.. As Sentries.) Both HT and Arbiters are expensive casters/support units. This is a more early/mid game caster/support. By giving it a weak attack, it all of a sudden gains harassment potential. It gains a reason to move out on the map, and not only sit in the deathball. - Maybe 5 dmg per second? - Range 6? (So it can not out-range static defence) - It can only attack ground units. (Stargate units are the only anti-air air units?) Of course it is not as good as Reaver harassment. Or dropping Zealots. Or maybe not as Corsairs with Graviton beam. But still it has potential to do some damage. Maybe pick of 1-2 workers. Annoy the opponent. Force a reaction. Force him to get some Marines. Force some Hydras out. It can help to support early aggression / pressure? The Sentinel spells are an issue... We do have some good alternatives for the spell Null ward. BUT I am not sure if a damage is necessary for Null Ward? After all, Sentinel shall probably not be superior to later game harassment, like Storm drop, Reaver Drop or Blink. Maybe it should only be capable of light harassment with its attack. But if the Null Ward only slows/stuns enemy units, they will for the most part not bother to walk into it. Null Ward will only be deadly if other friendly units are nearby who can damage the slowed units... And this will only make Null Ward useful near an army, or near Cannons... I just fear it will have unintended consequenses for the gameplay if it deals damage, and if it does not deal damage, it will be quite bad..? In fact, is the Null Ward needed at all? Without it, the Sentinel currently can: - Since it flies it can scout the map / the enemy base. - Since it has an attack it can do light harassment vs the enemy worker line or vs lonely buildings. - Since it will most likely have the Safeguard spell, it gains a purpose with the army: adds protection to ground units. I generally aim to make spells simple and clean. Straight on. So I will just drop this question before I am off to bed: What would be the easiest and most straight forward way to make Null Ward? Without any complicated life % drain, effects happen over time, this and that unit is immune etc. But still it most feel like Protoss, feel unique and useful. Just the core of the Null ward. Strip it naked. Scale it down. Reach the core of the spell. Thoughts on all of this? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
- Maybe 5 dmg per second? - Range 6? (So it can not out-range static defence) - It can only attack ground units. (Stargate units are the only anti-air air units?) Triple that DPS maybe  Please rather overdo the damage, becaause then people will start use it, learn it figure it out, and then we can balance it after if it is op. If it takes 10 seconds to kill a worker, nobody will bother. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
They would three-shot Marines. They would force very early Turrets from Terran, or go straigth for early Stargate. Or I remove Armory requirement for Goliaths. Which just makes the Terran tech tree feel even less diverese... But the stats does not matter at this point. That is easy to fix in the game. We need to find a good and useful starting spell/ability. I think that is the key. When we have the foundation of the unit figured out, we can balance the spells, the stats and the unit so it fits into the game. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
The attack works with both, the safeguard must be with units.What about nullward? I with army, then go for some severe trap (I had an idea), with without army, then maybe damage.... Also, you can up the damage some without breaking PvT I think (not triple....) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 29 2013 07:33 Kabel wrote: That would have very severe consequenses on PvT, unless I rebalance Terran as well. They would three-shot Marines. They would force very early Turrets from Terran, or go straigth for early Stargate. Or I remove Armory requirement for Goliaths. Which just makes the Terran tech tree feel even less diverese... But the stats does not matter at this point. That is easy to fix in the game. We need to find a good and useful starting spell/ability. I think that is the key. When we have the foundation of the unit figured out, we can balance the spells, the stats and the unit so it fits into the game. I don't understand how terran tech tree will feel less diverse without the armory requirement? But you could also just give it a weak early game attack, and then give it a stronger upgrade at robo bay. Regarding pvz, I played some games with solid today, and I think as long as the protoss take a relatively quick 3rd (pre 10 minute mark), then you can hold off zerg lair tech as long as you scout/react correctly. However, the problem is that on most maps, the protoss just can't take a quick 3rd. He simply risk being overrunned by speedlings if he takes a pre 8 minute 3rd, and taking a 3rd while mutas are out either requires a very high stalker count with blink or enough corsairs. But assuming the toss, manages to go to the midgame in a decent position, he will likely lose if he goes for Archons/Ht's which both could use a buff. But instead, the reaver/blink stalker combo is ridicilously strong vs zerg lair as long as you play a very patient game - I would argue that protoss players should change their mentality from thinking that they have to play aggressive in the midgame to try out a more mech'ish inspired style. So I think we can balance the matchups with these types of changes; - Better options early game for protoss to scout/react/harass. - Buff Ht + Archons - A change of corsair attack. - Sentinel as an allround spellcaster, which is pretty good against both mutalisks/lings and hydra/lurkers. I think these changes will be enough to make pvz a quite fair matchup, and I don't think we should rush to nerf lurkers or mutas before we see the effect of these changes. But nevertheless, I do think its debateable how fun this matchup will be for the protoss player if he will have to play a mech'ish style regardless of what the zerg does. All of the zergs unit compositions at lair tech forces the protoss to just turlte pretty hard, and I would that as a terran player you at least have the option of going bio instead. It seems that protoss doesn't really have an option in this matchup, but to turtle. I would like to see more diversity, and my solution is to reduce the mobility of the lurker to make it more siege tank'ish. While I do think the mobile lurker is quite fun to use, I think the overall matchup dynamic is more important. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 29 2013 07:21 Kabel wrote: Sentinel This is the last major design headache I have. I will be very happy if we find a natural home in the game for this unit. I consider to make it a quite cheap unit. (50 minerals / 100 gas.. As Sentries.) Both HT and Arbiters are expensive casters/support units. This is a more early/mid game caster/support. By giving it a weak attack, it all of a sudden gains harassment potential. It gains a reason to move out on the map, and not only sit in the deathball. - Maybe 5 dmg per second? - Range 6? (So it can not out-range static defence) - It can only attack ground units. (Stargate units are the only anti-air air units?) Of course it is not as good as Reaver harassment. Or dropping Zealots. Or maybe not as Corsairs with Graviton beam. But still it has potential to do some damage. Maybe pick of 1-2 workers. Annoy the opponent. Force a reaction. Force him to get some Marines. Force some Hydras out. It can help to support early aggression / pressure? The Sentinel spells are an issue... We do have some good alternatives for the spell Null ward. BUT I am not sure if a damage is necessary for Null Ward? After all, Sentinel shall probably not be superior to later game harassment, like Storm drop, Reaver Drop or Blink. Maybe it should only be capable of light harassment with its attack. But if the Null Ward only slows/stuns enemy units, they will for the most part not bother to walk into it. Null Ward will only be deadly if other friendly units are nearby who can damage the slowed units... And this will only make Null Ward useful near an army, or near Cannons... I just fear it will have unintended consequenses for the gameplay if it deals damage, and if it does not deal damage, it will be quite bad..? In fact, is the Null Ward needed at all? Without it, the Sentinel currently can: - Since it flies it can scout the map / the enemy base. - Since it has an attack it can do light harassment vs the enemy worker line or vs lonely buildings. - Since it will most likely have the Safeguard spell, it gains a purpose with the army: adds protection to ground units. I generally aim to make spells simple and clean. Straight on. So I will just drop this question before I am off to bed: What would be the easiest and most straight forward way to make Null Ward? Without any complicated life % drain, effects happen over time, this and that unit is immune etc. But still it most feel like Protoss, feel unique and useful. Just the core of the Null ward. Strip it naked. Scale it down. Reach the core of the spell. Thoughts on all of this? I'm not to fond of the Sentinal flying and attacking. That sounds like a Stargate unit to me, not a robotics unit. Also I think it will be impossible to get right, because it simply cannot have a lot of damageoutput if it is a cheap, midgame caster. Sure, light harassment may be fine, but giving it an attack just so that you may kill 1-2 workers for a lot of apm doesn't sound like a neat solutions imo. I think the Sentinal/Nullifier as a broad support unit at the early robotech is a great idea. Protoss lacks a critical link that allows for active play between reaver and gatewaytech. One that also gives the Protoss player that extra little punch he sometimes needs to hold midgame attacks without turtling. With that in mind, I think that the Sentinel should have a way to harass, but I'm uncertain to which degree. If there is a way to get the Nullward working in an intuitive way as harassment and mapcontrol/spotting tool it would fit well in my opinion. So, what's the core of the nullward? In my opinion, that it is a cheap trap that forces the opponent to spend actions on dealing with it. So, whatever it does, it should be just too powerful to ignore, yet not strong enough to win games. A simple slow might be a solution, as it tackles mining and army movement - but I'm never too excited about slow spells. It messes up unit interactions, while not imposing any real threat if you don't have an army nearby. The Oracle revelation would be pretty cool because it is a powerful thing that you don't want to give the Protoss (tracking all your army movement) - but it doesn't do anything for harass. Simple damage is probably just a Protoss Mine and hard to balance. (thinking about how strong spidermines have to be to impose a threat - but they dont attack workers) Maybe a forcefield prison. You step into it, all around those units there appear (some form of) forcefields. Hinders workers and is pretty annoying for an army to deal with. Though maybe just easier done with a stasis field. Maybe it binds all units around it to the nullward for a certain amount of time. They are not stunned, but they can only move in a 2radius AoE around the nullward. (like some chains appear that connect the nullward and some units) Maybe make a dark archon appear and do something. Then you add that Immortal spell which I proposed a few pages ago and the sentinel becomes a collection of Protoss units without a place in Starbow as a real unit (ok, this one is just fooling around... I'm obviously out of ideas for today, gotta get some sleep)Maybe give the Sentinel 3spells. Keep the nullward as nonharassment tool (like with the revelation) and then add something clean on top of that. Maybe someone just finds a different solution without the nullward, though then we start from scratch with the sentinel  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
I'm not to fond of the Sentinal flying and attacking. That sounds like a Stargate unit to me, not a robotics unit. Also I think it will be impossible to get right, because it simply cannot have a lot of damageoutput if it is a cheap, midgame caster. Sure, light harassment may be fine, but giving it an attack just so that you may kill 1-2 workers for a lot of apm doesn't sound like a neat solutions imo. Im very much inclined to agree with this. I think it would be a lot more interesting and alot easier to get right if it was a ground unit. However, Kabel told me that there simply weren't any models for it as a ground unit. When that is said, I don't think its completely impossible to get it right, just very challenging. I also don't think it needs to kill workers for APM reasons - but it is neccesary to give it a reason to go out on the map. I think if vultures weren't an harass threat, then you would also just set up mines right in front of your army and then turtle with them. The harass threat is IMO a neccesity to create interesting gameplay. I think the Sentinal/Nullifier as a broad support unit at the early robotech is a great idea. Protoss lacks a critical link that allows for active play between reaver and gatewaytech. One that also gives the Protoss player that extra little punch he sometimes needs to hold midgame attacks without turtling. Agree (or I baiscally said the something thing in my last post) With that in mind, I think that the Sentinel should have a way to harass, but I'm uncertain to which degree. If there is a way to get the Nullward working in an intuitive way as harassment and mapcontrol/spotting tool it would fit well in my opinion. So, what's the core of the nullward? In my opinion, that it is a cheap trap that forces the opponent to spend actions on dealing with it. So, whatever it does, it should be just too powerful to ignore, yet not strong enough to win games. I think my suggestion is still the most likely to succesed. Kabel's previous critique of it was that it was too difficult for newcomers, but with a an automatic mode I think that issue is addressed. I also don't think its particualrly difficult for new players to understand as long as you compare it to the widow mine. The problem with the damage approach (while keeping it as an air unit) is that its damage can't be particularly high. I think something like 5 damage with a +10 damage upgrade at robo bay could potentially work, but its not a bulletproof design, and it doesn't give the same unpredictable gameplay as my suggested "widow-mine". Compare these two examples; 1) 2 Sentinels which each deals 15 damage to workers - They fly over to an opponents base and after 10 seconds the opopnents marines comes to the rescue and forces the sentinels to escape. During those 10 seconds the sentinel could kill 10*2*15/45 = 6.67 (6) workers. This will bascially happen every single time as the sentinels are faster than the scvs (so they can't escape). In this example there are two uncertainities; A) How fast the terran player will react, and B) Will the protoss player run away with the sentinels before the stimmed marines kills them? 2) Sentinel has my suggested "widow mine" with a straightline attack. They fly over to the terrans base and places down two traps. Over the next 7 seconds noone can predict what's gonna happen. Has the terran player seen that the traps were placed and will he split the scvs? If not, he may just risk losing 10 scvs to a big double-shot. Or will the protoss player turn off the automatic mode and try to kill the marines with trap shot? Will the terran player predict that and try to split the marines before he tries to kill the trap? While I don't think the former example is bad gameplay, I would say its nowhere near as exciting as the latter. A simple slow might be a solution, as it tackles mining and army movement - but I'm never too excited about slow spells. It messes up unit interactions, while not imposing any real threat if you don't have an army nearby. The Oracle revelation would be pretty cool because it is a powerful thing that you don't want to give the Protoss (tracking all your army movement) - but it doesn't do anything for harass. Simple damage is probably just a Protoss Mine and hard to balance. (thinking about how strong spidermines have to be to impose a threat - but they dont attack workers) Maybe a forcefield prison. You step into it, all around those units there appear (some form of) forcefields. Hinders workers and is pretty annoying for an army to deal with. Though maybe just easier done with a stasis field. Maybe it binds all units around it to the nullward for a certain amount of time. They are not stunned, but they can only move in a 2radius AoE around the nullward. (like some chains appear that connect the nullward and some units) Im not sure I get your enthuasism for stasis or forcefield. Both are kinda micropreveneting abilities and protoss already has stasis. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 29 2013 05:10 Big J wrote: neither of those points is really true, I could give counterexamples to each of them please do this | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 29 2013 08:46 Hider wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I'm not to fond of the Sentinal flying and attacking. That sounds like a Stargate unit to me, not a robotics unit. Also I think it will be impossible to get right, because it simply cannot have a lot of damageoutput if it is a cheap, midgame caster. Sure, light harassment may be fine, but giving it an attack just so that you may kill 1-2 workers for a lot of apm doesn't sound like a neat solutions imo. Im very much inclined to agree with this. I think it would be a lot more interesting and alot easier to get right if it was a ground unit. However, Kabel told me that there simply weren't any models for it as a ground unit. When that is said, I don't think its completely impossible to get it right, just very challenging. I also don't think it needs to kill workers for APM reasons - but it is neccesary to give it a reason to go out on the map. I think if vultures weren't an harass threat, then you would also just set up mines right in front of your army and then turtle with them. The harass threat is IMO a neccesity to create interesting gameplay. I think the Sentinal/Nullifier as a broad support unit at the early robotech is a great idea. Protoss lacks a critical link that allows for active play between reaver and gatewaytech. One that also gives the Protoss player that extra little punch he sometimes needs to hold midgame attacks without turtling. Agree (or I baiscally said the something thing in my last post) With that in mind, I think that the Sentinel should have a way to harass, but I'm uncertain to which degree. If there is a way to get the Nullward working in an intuitive way as harassment and mapcontrol/spotting tool it would fit well in my opinion. So, what's the core of the nullward? In my opinion, that it is a cheap trap that forces the opponent to spend actions on dealing with it. So, whatever it does, it should be just too powerful to ignore, yet not strong enough to win games. I think my suggestion is still the most likely to succesed. Kabel's previous critique of it was that it was too difficult for newcomers, but with a an automatic mode I think that issue is addressed. I also don't think its particualrly difficult for new players to understand as long as you compare it to the widow mine. The problem with the damage approach (while keeping it as an air unit) is that its damage can't be particularly high. I think something like 5 damage with a +10 damage upgrade at robo bay could potentially work, but its not a bulletproof design, and it doesn't give the same unpredictable gameplay as my suggested "widow-mine". Compare these two examples; 1) 2 Sentinels which each deals 15 damage to workers - They fly over to an opponents base and after 10 seconds the opopnents marines comes to the rescue and forces the sentinels to escape. During those 10 seconds the sentinel could kill 10*2*15/45 = 6.67 (6) workers. This will bascially happen every single time as the sentinels are faster than the scvs (so they can't escape). In this example there are two uncertainities; A) How fast the terran player will react, and B) Will the protoss player run away with the sentinels before the stimmed marines kills them? 2) Sentinel has my suggested "widow mine" with a straightline attack. They fly over to the terrans base and places down two traps. Over the next 7 seconds noone can predict what's gonna happen. Has the terran player seen that the traps were placed and will he split the scvs? If not, he may just risk losing 10 scvs to a big double-shot. Or will the protoss player turn off the automatic mode and try to kill the marines with trap shot? Will the terran player predict that and try to split the marines before he tries to kill the trap? While I don't think the former example is bad gameplay, I would say its nowhere near as exciting as the latter. A simple slow might be a solution, as it tackles mining and army movement - but I'm never too excited about slow spells. It messes up unit interactions, while not imposing any real threat if you don't have an army nearby. The Oracle revelation would be pretty cool because it is a powerful thing that you don't want to give the Protoss (tracking all your army movement) - but it doesn't do anything for harass. Simple damage is probably just a Protoss Mine and hard to balance. (thinking about how strong spidermines have to be to impose a threat - but they dont attack workers) Maybe a forcefield prison. You step into it, all around those units there appear (some form of) forcefields. Hinders workers and is pretty annoying for an army to deal with. Though maybe just easier done with a stasis field. Maybe it binds all units around it to the nullward for a certain amount of time. They are not stunned, but they can only move in a 2radius AoE around the nullward. (like some chains appear that connect the nullward and some units) Im not sure I get your enthuasism for stasis or forcefield. Both are kinda micropreveneting abilities and protoss already has stasis. I agree with your suggestion having potential, yet I'm agreeing with Kabel that it is a little weird if you need to place it - wait - target. Also I'm not quite sure about the damagevalues. Like a 25 AoE shockwave as you described it does not kill anything on it's own, so you need 2 or 3. On the flipside those shockwaves could turn out devastating for both, workers and lowtier units and just win the game with a few blasts, if it has enough AoE - something that I think that your suggestion implied, to make it able to harass from outside of turretrange. Stuff like that is obviously fixable by balancing the damage/AoE/energycost/sentinel cost values, yet a balanced solution may just turn out to be not so exciting. Generall at this point with the values suggested by Kabel (50/100 costs, fast, flying, cloakable), I don't see this unit doing a whole lot of harass at all. That's actually something I would thinkover again. Something like 150/100 sounds like a more fun unit (due to a higher powerlevel). Well, I'm not hugely enthusiastic for forcefield or stasis, yet, I've never been an opponent to antimicro spells generally, if they are done right (e.g. the HotS fungal is a very fun spell because you often don't get it right, singlefire stuns such as lockdown on expensive casters sound like an interesting 1for1 tradeoff, ). I think that both of them can work very well in a autocast trap version, as it's not the opponent who simply chooses where to forcefield and what to stasis. You can prevent it by killing the trap beforehand and if you get hit, it's annoying for you but rarely ever can the opponent directly emphasize on it. Like, if you move out with a mech army and you get a few units stasised for 15seconds, for the most part it will delay your attack (I'm not thinking about a huge AoE version of stasis with this, just something that catches a maximum of say 5 units if you walked into it really badly) Anyways, those were just some random suggestions of what a Nullward could be, I wouldn't put too much value into those lines. Dark Swarm isn't simple: It has very special rules against what it works and against what not. The splash part of an attack is still done, but the rest is not. Ranged attacks are affected but melee is not. D-Matrix isn't simple: It creates a HP shield, but somehow sometimes damage can leak through and I still don't know the rules why... Well, that not every spell is powerful is kind of straight forward... how often have you seen Queens and Dark Archons being used? Optic Flare? etc... Directly micro rewarding. Well I guess you are mostly right on that, but neither of those nullward suggestions I have seen was really microintense either. Like Hiders idea was the most microintense and it was three clicks, one to place it,one to select it and one to use it. That's less microintense than casting a dark swarm and then using it properly. Mealstrom and Irradiate directly counter bio units and nothing else. Yamato Gun is hardly useful against anything but bigass targets, same for lockdown, mindcontrol and broodlings. Feedback is a caster counter. None of those spells seemed to be directly designed for harass. But they surely had some spells with specific roles. Just as I pointed out in the three sentences above. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
If i see quick gas, i can't rely on scouting either spire, lurker or quick hydra timing, at the moment on most maps I have been able to decently hold off muta's with a couple cannons and some stalkers with range, BUT I have nothing to punish him. I have to open up with a robo as well to hold of lurker/hydra-pushes, so robo around 8 mins is necessary. The real problem is now that I cannot punish a player that goes fast muta's and plays it well, containing me and picking off workers/cannons. Meaning I need to turtle, because i need those stalkers to keep mobile in my bases to hold off the muta's. So instead of making the null ward a harass spell, i'd like to see it stun units for 3-ish seconds, so i can set up traps near my cannons (extra reward for seeing the enemy in time and chronoing the cannons while they muta's are trapped). This would allow me to relatively safely move out on the map with my army and punish greediness. Storm deals damage too slow atm, lings can run through em and survive most of the time, makes storm ineffective as defense, I have been making lots of reavers and put one at each expo with 5-6 cannons, that holds off most cheap attacks. Archons are also too weak, up their damage a bit 30-35 would be fine. I have some concerns about the stalker vs hydra, seems a bit too unbalanced atm, i cannot fight a +- equal amount of hydras with my stalkers, always need reavers (stalker does 11 dmg vs hydra, hydra does 12 and attacks faster if i'm not mistaken). For lategame, zerg has some really good combo's like dark swarm + ultra/ling, but i'm currently thinking more about how i can deal with it, i guess i have to make some scouts at the end of midgame to pick off defilers, this could also open up a path to add carriers endgame. Then there is one concern left, dark templars are really good for harass, IF the zerg is too greedy and doesn't really invest in static defense, but 1 spore and 2 spines effectively deal with 3-ish dt's. So since i like the new spell that the observer has, keeps them alive vs spores because zerg is usually not looking, i'd like to see something similar on the dt, so the zerg can deal with the dt's using static defense, but has to manually target with his spines, taking away some attention. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Three possible different solutions? (Based on what you have said in the thread.) 1. Null Ward has an attack Sentine places a Null Ward. The Null Ward has a line-attack. (Just as the Lurker and the new Rupture spell.) The Ward attacks nearby stuff. (Or Auto-cast if it is a spell.) The Ward has slow attack speed. Players can select it if they want to target fire. After X seconds, the Null Ward is destroyed. (Or if the enemy units kill it.) 2. The most simple Null Ward explosion The Sentinel places a Null Ward. It takes 2-3 seconds for it to "deploy." As soon as at least one enemy unit comes near it, it will immediately detonate. Upon detonation it does an immediate effect! (Nothing over time.) - Maybe add a slow buff to units, that lasts ca 10 seconds? - Maybe drain life/deal damage to the units? - Maybe stun their movement completely? 3. Sentinel gets another line-up of spells: - Force field - Rupture (The current spell that drains life and slows the enemy units within a line.) - Safeguard --- The purpose of the Sentinels standard attack is just to give it the possibility to do something alone. Not just float in the deathball. If we manage to create a spell/ability that gives it a reason to be active on the map, well.. then maybe the standard attack is not needed. I aim to keep the Safeguard spell on the Sentinel. I also aim to remove the passive cloaking ability. It messes with the model. @Dark Templar Then there is one concern left, dark templars are really good for harass, IF the zerg is too greedy and doesn't really invest in static defense, but 1 spore and 2 spines effectively deal with 3-ish dt's. So since i like the new spell that the observer has, keeps them alive vs spores because zerg is usually not looking, i'd like to see something similar on the dt, so the zerg can deal with the dt's using static defense, but has to manually target with his spines, taking away some attention. This one is quite interesting. Maybe an upgrade at the Templar Archives? When the DT activates the ability, it must be target fired for the next 15 seconds. (Just as the Observer ability.) Static defence can ofc still kill DTs, if the defending players pay attention and target fire it. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
I agree with your suggestion having potential, yet I'm agreeing with Kabel that it is a little weird if you need to place it - wait - target. Also I'm not quite sure about the damagevalues. Like a 25 AoE shockwave as you described it does not kill anything on it's own, so you need 2 or 3. On the flipside those shockwaves could turn out devastating for both, workers and lowtier units and just win the game with a few blasts, if it has enough AoE - something that I think that your suggestion implied, to make it able to harass from outside of turretrange. Stuff like that is obviously fixable by balancing the damage/AoE/energycost/sentinel cost values, yet a balanced solution may just turn out to be not so exciting. Generall at this point with the values suggested by Kabel (50/100 costs, fast, flying, cloakable), I don't see this unit doing a whole lot of harass at all. That's actually something I would thinkover again. Something like 150/100 sounds like a more fun unit (due to a higher powerlevel). 1) I am suggesting an automatic mode that can be turned off so it will auto-attack/target for new players, but better players can turn it off and manually target instead. 2) It can kill more stuff in it iselt, however that needs to be over 40 seconds. But yeh damage values are debateable.One could also imagine something like: 100 damage to first attack. 80 damage to second, 60 to 3rd.... etc. The point is obviously to make it feel powerfull and unpredictable without making it punish the opponent extremely hard for a split-second mistake. I don't think 150/100 is the right cost structure. That will make it a another small niche unit you can only get a couple of throughout the entire game. I would like to see it fill out the role as the sentry (a 3rd core unit) and to do that, I believe it needs to be relatively cheap. I also think the point isn't that it needs to do a shitton of harass damage, but it should just efficient enough on a "damage given/APM used"-ratio to be worth having out on the map. If it costs 50/100, then players are obviously more likely to have 3-4 out on the map harassing rather than just 1-2. Thus it can still deal a decent amount of daamge if its main attack 3 shot workers. | ||
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