EPT[A] Starbow - Page 308
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 27 2013 03:26 Danko__ wrote: Toss has already its unique feel. Warp in+ both recalls (still underused) + you feel value of EVERY unit as toss. imho what toss needs most now is finishing and polishing, not redesign. To me it seems to be mostly reaver + stronger gateway units which differs protoss starbow from sc2 starbow. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
To me it seems to be mostly reaver + stronger gateway units which differs protoss starbow from sc2 starbow. I have a bit different approach to it. Fixing warpgate and frocefield issues allowed to buff gateway units. But yeah, its mainly fixed gateway tech + reaver + dts on templar archives. Well.. after all it seems like toss was not that hard to fix ^^. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
I think the only chance the protoss has is to defend all game long and focus on securing and defending bases as fast and efficient as possible, but of course even that is probably an unwinable situation for protoss as zerg with its drop tech has really strong tools at defeating a turtling opponent. I don't think the solution is to renerf zergs eco, because it does give an incentive for the protoss player to harass the zerg player. The problem is that his tools simply aren't strong enough. I really think all of my previous suggested buffs to protoss (and terran) and lair buff time for zerg are neccesary (not just one or two of them), as protoss can't afford to throw away early game units for drones or hatcheries. For instance in one of the games I played against Danko he actually punished me for taking a super quick 3rd (before mutas were out) with some zealot warp ins. However, in that proces he just traded 4 zealots for a hatchery which wasn't really a very good trade as I just took another 3rd and killed the zealots with my mutas. Then he had to delay his own 3rd even later as he needed to get a critical mass of blink stalkers + cannons to hold off against mutalisk harass. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
So i disagree with danko, protoss is not that easy to fix, and i still feel that they need gateway unit so one of ideas is bring back dragoon with his strong attack and ability to warp in upper turret for making it immortal and give it safeguard ability if i'd forced to make my own scMOD i'd do this: Heavy changes to protoss by me + Show Spoiler [Stalker] + taken from wiki Attributes: Armored, Mechanical, medium? Cost: 125/50 Supply: 2 Build time: 45 s HP: 160 (80+80) Movement speed: 2.95 Armor: 0 <= main change Damage: 14 (12 vs light, 16 vs armored) <= this one could be nerfed, also maybe make stalkers more antilight Attack speed: 1.75 Range: 4 Attacks: Ground and air + Show Spoiler [Dragoon] + constructed in gateway Attributes: Armored, Mechanical Cost: 125-175 min 50-75 gas Supply: 2 Build time: 50-60s HP: 200 (100+100) () Movement speed: 2.25 Armor: 1 Damage: 15 to light, 20 vs everything ( 4 stalkers > 2 dragoons > 3 stalkers ) Attack speed: 1.5 Range: (4-5)+2 Attacks: Ground and air model - immortal without upper turret size - as archone recieve benefit from range upgrade at CC Ability: add-warp immortal, requires robo bay. transforms selected dragoon to immortal + Show Spoiler [Immortal] + transformed from dragoon Attributes: Armored, Mechanical Cost: 100-150 min 25-75 gas (so final cost is 225-325 mins and 75-150 gas) Supply: +2 (final supply is 4) Build time: 20-30s HP: 250-300 (100-150+150) Movement speed: 2.25 Armor: 1 Damage - 19 x2 to everything, small + vs armored (2 dragoons > 1 immo, with 1 dragoon left) (3 stalkers > 1 immo > 2 stalkers) Attack speed: 2 Range: (4-5)+2 (upgrade) Attacks: Ground only recieve benefit from range upgrade at CC Energy - default (200), starting energy default Abilities: Safeguard from sentinel/nullifier, channeling, 75 mp cost + 5-10mp/sec Hardened shield (autocast, 5-10 mp per damage) - life personal safeguard Theorycrafting: Zealot - role as early-game punisher and meatshield, requires micro via spreading and charging, charge mb just adds +1 speed Stalker - harras/antiharras unit, fast but weak, ofc you could do pushes with them, require micro skills (armor reduced to make stalker less tanky) Dragoon - they're slower but more powerful, require more spreading due their size, they're what protoss need for fights without mobility, still could be warped though. you cant make stalkers so powerful because they have speed and blink Immortal - protoss answer to lurker and tank, they're more expensive, they require morphing, they're powerful in direct attacks, they can support units with safeguard (but require micro since they can run out of energy if focused or EMP'd) and starport: - remove nullifienitel  - buff scout antiground, add wards and rupture (if u like) - make feedback ability more powerful (current is useless, -75 mp/dmg to one target and in form of missle? w00t? :D), add it also to scout or! arbiter | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
If there is a clean solution to colossus then most probably its very close to OneGoals colossus. But well, as you said, reaver is superior to gameplay. Fen1kz: Toss can easly use HTs and reavers to defend. And on field his units are also very efficient. What really is a problem is growth speed of zerg. I would suggest small tweaks to z and p units (muta damage back to normal, stalkers dmg uunnerfed) and some changes to tech cost (lurkers upgrade 200/200, like in bw, spire cost increased slightly, maybe lair bt increased slightly). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Edit: Sumadin has suggested unifying stalker damage vs medium. and armored to just 15 yesterday, when we were playing. Maybe that's not so bad idea. That would buff stalkers vs hydra and muta slightly without huge impact on other mus. Also, I think cannons changes gotta be, at least partially, reverted. Back to 7 range and decent damage even without cb. Right now defence vs mutas is absurd. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
- Corsairs micro become reworked so few can fight vs large flock of Mutas. (With good micro.) December has sent me a solution - Stalker gain +1 damage again. - Charge become changed in some way. Probably as Fen1kz suggested? - Archon damage up from 25 vs all to 30 or 35 vs all - Lair takes an extra 25-40 seconds to morph into. (Will this be problematic in TvZ?) - Mutalisk damage per bounce reverted to original values. - Sentinel gets a new fix. (I will present this when I get time to write it.) Additional suggestions: - Reduce cost of Warp Prism from 200 to 150 minerals. - Reduce cost of Protoss tech structures (Robotic facility and Stargate) by 50 minerals. - Increase build time on Lurker den and Spire by 20 seconds? There might be other solutions to make too, as many of you have suggested, But what do you think about the stuff above? Should something more be added? Ps. Cannons have permanent range 7. Ps2. Can anyone check how good Storm damage is atm? (Not sure if its too low or high) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 27 2013 18:39 Kabel wrote: Potential small balance adjustements to come in the next patch: - Corsairs micro become reworked so few can fight vs large flock of Mutas. (With good micro.) December has sent me a solution - Stalker gain +1 damage again. - Charge become changed in some way. Probably as Fen1kz suggested? - Archon damage up from 25 vs all to 30 or 35 vs all - Lair takes an extra 25-40 seconds to morph into. (Will this be problematic in TvZ?) - Mutalisk damage per bounce reverted to original values. - Sentinel gets a new fix. (I will present this when I get time to write it.) There might be other solutions to make too, as many of you have suggested, But what do you think about the stuff above? Should something more be added? Ps. Cannons have permanent range 7. Ps2. Can anyone check how good Storm damage is atm? (Not sure if its too low or high) I still don't see how a protoss player can ever attack a zerg player ? 25-40 seconds really isn't enough in it self to make early game harass viable for protoss, and in mid/early late game zerg can just counterattack if the protoss moves out. I don't think the latter is really something we can really take away from the gameplay, and actually I would argue that it does create some interesting gameplay (feels like the protoss player is "mech'ing"). The problem is that its just very undynamic as the protoss never during one point had any possiblity of being in the offensive. Therefore I think the best option is to significantly buff his early game tools. Besides giving him some early game presence, it will also make muta/hydra openings less strong (assuming equal drone count), which allows the protoss player to a quicker 3rd/4th. I really don't think that changing stalkers/muta damage are the fundamental problems with matchups. Sure it could help in creating the correct balance, but it may have other unintended consequences. Instead please improve upon the inefficiences of teching on 1-2 bases, which makes terran feel less creative in all matchups, and which especially punishes protoss as they are more dependant on higher tech units. I think protoss becomes more boring when they have to build gateway units only before they take have a 3rd up and running (due to the way the Starbow economy works). Instead, it just makes a lot of logical sense to me that we adjust the costs of the tech structures to reflect the differences between Starbow and Sc2/BW economy. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On June 27 2013 18:39 Kabel wrote: Potential small balance adjustements to come in the next patch: - Corsairs micro become reworked so few can fight vs large flock of Mutas. (With good micro.) December has sent me a solution - Stalker gain +1 damage again. - Charge become changed in some way. Probably as Fen1kz suggested? - Archon damage up from 25 vs all to 30 or 35 vs all - Lair takes an extra 25-40 seconds to morph into. (Will this be problematic in TvZ?) - Mutalisk damage per bounce reverted to original values. - Sentinel gets a new fix. (I will present this when I get time to write it.) Giving stalkers just 1+ damage would be 2 steps forward and 1 step backwards in terms of what we have been working on with PvT. Something i would suggest instead is that we erase the current stalkers damage to medium and lets its current armored attack become its baseline attack with -4 damage vs light. This is actually +2 damage vs both Hydras and Mutas so the effect should be there however it is less significant vs Terran bio, Marines in particular. Really hope the corsiars will work this time. The phoenix from HOTS is already a pretty good design that works and synegises better with lift, so what we really is doing right now is re-re-reinventing the wheel. I thought the archons damage was higher than that? Oh well. Later lurkers in TvZ means higher opportunity for a Bio timing push, but bio is already doing fine in TvZ so i am not sure if it is something good. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 27 2013 20:32 Danko__ wrote: Hider, both changes are necessary. To units and to tech cost. Also, aditional 20 sec is a lot. The fundamental problem isn't the cost efficiency of stalkers, because protoss shouldn't rely on gateway units all game long. The problem is how difficult and inefficient it is for protoss to tech to higher tier units (untill they are on at least 3 bases). If for instance we just "solve" the problem by overbuffing gateway units, then we will go into a state where protoss just masses stalkers/zealots all game long and first starts adding tier 2/3 units 20+ minutes into the game. I don't think that's particuarly exciting. By buffing gateway armies we also risk making protoss too mobile against zerg and terran which could create some kind of stalemale situation. Instead, it IMO creates a more interesting gameplay if the protoss "needs" to do damage early game to the zerg, and the zerg "needs" to do damage in the midgame as protoss benefits from scale to a higher extent than zerg due to storm + reavers. This rewards both players for army trading. Then later in the game I would actually like to see protoss become more mobile as the zerg transition. That however, might be a slight problem as both guardians and ultras seems too be too mobile for that to occur. I would like to have at least one zerg unit compostiion which was less mobile than the protoss composition. Perhaps viper with bread could create that kind of dynamic? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Additional potential stuff added in the post above. Please continue to suggest exact changes. @Phoenix / Corsair Phoenix do not work well with Scourge. If Phoenix and Scourge have equal speed, Scourge will never hit. If Scourge has faster speed than Phoenix, they will catch all other air units very easily too. But right now Corsairs are way to unmicroable. So with Decembers new suggestion, I hope the "new" Corsair will be much more useful and microable, so Protoss get a new tool to fight vs Mutalisks. Another reason I decided to have the Corsair in the game was due to the splash damage. If we can get the balance properly, we might reach a state where Zerg is punished by just clumping 20+ mutas into one small ball. All anti-air air units atm deal some kind of splash damage. The purpose of it is to shatter the "air deatball." Hopefully this will instead lead to smaller groups of air units etc, just as we have managed to do with the ground armies to some degree, @Charge I think you are overcomplicating this. I don't think units like zealots need infinitely big micro potential. Honestly, sent them in, spread them, backstab with them, drop with warp prism, maybe kite a bit vs lings, flank. Early game is when you really micro with them. Later on there are much more interesting units to focus on. And even with just speed upgrade (or without) I have seen players controlling zealots terribly. It is not about adding infinitely micro potential, or over complicating things just for the sake of it. I always try to aim for the most simple and clean solutions. (Ofc I fail sometimes.) The old values we used to have for speed Zealots led to lame and predictable combats. It was almost impossible for Hydras/Marines to micro vs speed Zealots. They were so fast, so strong, so smart, and due to the SC2 system, they just killed stuff while running. The biggest blob of units would win, and the Hydra/Marine micro barely mattered. Personally I think it is a problem. Not the biggest problem in the game. But still something worth to tweak and improve. Edit: Fen1kz, I like your test map for Charge! Unless someone sees a flaw with it, I will most likely implement this. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19647338/Starcraft/sb-zealot.SC2Map | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I have a radical idea that might make PvX broken, but let's buff first and nerf later What if Nullward almost traps units completely (and actually activates right away, vultures could just drive past it and it reacted too slowly) AND all units trapped by a nullward DIES in one hit! (for x seconds). This would make it excellent to keep in your base with some canons for defense vs back-stabs and also, ofc good to keep with your army out in a fight. A smart opponent can, ofc, send in just a few units first to trigger it and then send more, but it requires more from both players. And it is actually good. It still needs to be with the army / canons, and cannot kill by itself this way (unless you add an attack to it).I also think energy on nexus should regen a bit faster to go along the larvae spawn rate increase. Not sure how that will effect PvT though... @ Charge I tried Fen's map. It was kinda weird, because you want the zealots to stop, so kiting does not help. Rather you'd want to leave a few marines behind as "stop/slow-bait" so the others can kite. It felt kinda weird tbh. Also +1 for lair time change. With increased spawn rate, zerg should do fine in both match ups if they have to stay on hatch tech for longer. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This is not complete. Its just where my thoughts are atm regarding the Sentinel. + Show Spoiler + Cost reduced to 50/100. HP 40 Shield 60 Speed ca 3 The model becomes smaller. Still built from the Robotic facility. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Oxhjomw.jpg) Ok, so far we have a flying version of the Sentry. By giving it some kind of weak weapon, we do two things for Protoss: - Give them a "cheap" and early way to get out on the map to do light harassment - The Sentinel is not just a deathball unit, like the Sentry is What shall the weapon do? Weak dmg vs everything? Good vs light units? Attack ground only? Stargate units are anti-air? Spells of the Sentinel + Show Spoiler + I consider to only give the Sentinel two spells. Just as Force Field was a great utility spell for the Sentry, I want to find something similar for the Sentinel. Maybe can Null ward be that spell. Just an example: Null ward 25 energy 10 sec cooldown to avoid spamming. Now gains a casting range. Maybe 6? The ward lasts for 1-2 minutes. It has HP so the enemy can kill it if they have detecion nearby. As soon as an enemy unit comes near it, it will immediately detonate and start to drain life and slow movement speed in that area for 10-12 seconds. Since it is an air ward, it works both vs air and ground units. It helps both vs Mutalisks and Hydras. (If P is tricky) It will probably be useful in all match-ups. Problems: - It just feels like a Protoss version of Spider mine? - It might lead to strong defence for Protoss quite easy. (Just place them around your base to prevent all types of harassment?) - It might be too strong for harassment. Just fly to the enemy base and cast them on the workers... The second spell is still Safeguard. Researched at the robotic bay. Probably just give Hardened shield to the units. Or some other kind of decent protection. Since the Sentinel is so fragile, it is important that it is used in a good location, and it is also important that the enemy races get some anti-air units. Hopefully can this help to improve the aggression in the game, since P now has tools to attack heavily fortified positions. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wKTfV97.jpg) This Sentinel must feel so natural and part of the context that it OFFERS something unique and useful to Protoss. There must be a need for it. There must be a reason to get it. This is not a complete draft. Only a presentaion of my current thoughts. Please continue to discuss it, improve it or scrap it. | ||
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