EPT[A] Starbow - Page 307
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
- Reduce cost and building time of Robo facility (and starport for that sake). - Reduce cost of warp prism from 200 minerals to 125. - Warp prism should no longer be able to warp in. - Warp in upgrade can be researched at robo bay for a cheap price of 50/50 or something like it - Increase building time of robo bay (in order to not make reaver drops openings too strong since they can possibly kill the opponent). The point with these changes is to make it possible and very cheap for the protoss to open up robo at 2 bases against zerg without instadying to a 8-minute mutas. With these changes it should be possible to drop like 3 zealots and a stalker around the 6 minute mark or so in order to harass the zerg efficiently. Since warp ins would make that attack extremely scary, and since the intention behind this is to reward light harass pressure rather than allins, I think it is neccesary to make this a seperate upgrade available for later in the game. But these changes would give the protoss an early way of hararassing the protoss cost efficiently as a great player will always pick up the injured gateway units. Cost efficiency early game is a neccesity to reward protoss (and terran) harass since they can't afford to army trade early game when 6 mutas can be in their base around 08:30. To deal with that number of mutalisks they simply need a critical unit count and to incentivize early game army trading they therefore need ways to cost efficiently harass. Reducing the cost and build time of dropships/warp prism/stargate/robo fac. etc is a big step in the right direction of rewarding light early game pressure (which IMO is extremely inefficient atm). For instance, I think this kind of gameplay could be cool - After the early game harass, the protoss (during the harass) scouted that a spire was underway. As a respond he gets out 2 Sentinels and puts up various traps which will make it easier for a small group of stalkers (say 3-4 stalkers) to deal with 5-6 mutalisks. That will make it possible for the protoss to get maybe a 10:00 3rd so your economy can stay on somewhat even putting with the zerg eco in the midgame. That would at least give the Sentinel 1 clear defined role (as a follow up unit to warp prism harass). | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
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Footymd
Canada105 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I don't think it's updated on NA atm. Only on EU. Use Global play or nag Kabel to update on NA  | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I will be a bit busy in the coming days with other stuff. But I aim to get a new patch up in maybe 4-5 days. Feel free to continue discuss and propose balance suggestions. @When will Starbow ever be finished? Is this thing ever gonna get finished? Its starting to get ridiculous. What is ridiculous? Is there a deadline? We are a relative small player group (ca 10 players) who playtest this occasionally. I do most of the work in the editor, and sometimes other stuff in life comes in the way. Sometimes Starbow falls asleep and people become inactive. Sometimes we wake up and start to play again. When we notice if something is broken or flawed in the design or balance, due to our playtesting, we rethink it and discuss it here in the thread. It might be a slow process, but that is how we do it. And we try to have fun in the process... I don´t know if you have followed this thread lately, but I have stated a few times in the last days what I think is left to do with Starbow. @Where is Starbow uploaded? Is this no longer on the arcade? Atm this is only uploaded on EU. This is because I have patched it a lot in the last 10 days, since I had a lot of free time available last week. And it is time consuming to patch both NA and EU as frequently as I do. But later on when things become more stable I will upload it to more regions. You can join us on EU though. We usually play between 19.00-00.00 CET.  | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The old Charge upgrade in Starbow gave a permanent speed boost to Zealots. Just as in BW. - Speed Zealots slaughtered Marines. - Speed Zealots slaughtered Hydras. Of course. The problem I have with this is the micro required from Hydras and Marines is soooo much higher than the micro required from Zealots. Combats become very one dimensional. We used to have these values: Zealots with speed upg 3.25. Hydras with speed upg 3. Marines with stimpack speed 3.375 A-move enough Zealots and you win the combat. Try these values in the editor for yourselfes on a test map. It is hard to split the Hydras/Marines. Zealots just catch them anyway. Potential solutions: - Bring back permanent Zealot speed upgrade, but find better values between the units. - Bring back SC2 Charge. Maybe rework it. - Rework the current version of Charge. I would prefer if the combat relationship between Zealots and especially Hydras/Marine become less brutal and predictable. Anyone else sees any problem with permanent speed Zealots? Or is it just me? :p Ps. How could this work so well in BW? Zealot vs Hydra combat seemed so fun and full of small interactions that helped to determine the outcome of the combat. | ||
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
I personally find SC2 charge to be boring. There is little to nothing that the Protoss player can do to make their Zealots do any more than what they would accomplish just by A-moving. The fact that Zealots move right after (or even during) an attack further decreases what mechanics can get out of a Zealot in terms of unit interactions. Sure, it can look exciting to see 10 Zealots auto-charge-surround a group of Marines (got old quite quickly, though), but it is far from the skill-based excitement that should be a part of the game. How about changing SC2 charge so that after charging, the Zealot can only move some percentage of its normal maximum speed for some amount of time? This still makes Zealots useful (can not be kited to death; they will steal do some damage), allows for repositioning from the enemy, and obligates the Protoss player to micro Zealots to their next destination/target since it gives them time to reevaluate the situation instead of the AI instantly choosing/moving for them. For this change, I think that the best way to approach it is to keep the "cooldown" (whatever you want to call it).high and the Zealot sustainability (hitpoints/shields or otherwise) high as well. This indirectly makes the battles last longer, allowing the players more time to orchestrate their wins via skill. You could also mess with increased damage taken while charging. Separately or in conjunction with the above, but I feel like this should just be used to help balance the above. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 25 2013 20:23 Hider wrote: - Warp prism should no longer be able to warp in. lol? then bring back old protoss dropships, because current paper warp prisms with small warpfield are not worthy compared to ovies and dropships @charge im not sure, but some passive ability that increases speed from zealot speed to charge speed over n seconds? and resets when zealot stops moving? random values: zealot speed is 2.25. charge speed is 3.75, charge duration is 2 seconds. when zealot start moving he has 2.25 movespeed and it increases overtime to 3.75 (1.50 by 2 seconds, means +0.047 every 0.0625 seconds) if he attacks/stops then his movespeed resets to 2.25 just an random idea | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 26 2013 08:40 Fen1kz wrote: lol? then bring back old protoss dropships, because current paper warp prisms with small warpfield are not worthy compared to ovies and dropships @charge im not sure, but some passive ability that increases speed from zealot speed to charge speed over n seconds? and resets when zealot stops moving? random values: zealot speed is 2.25. charge speed is 3.75, charge duration is 2 seconds. when zealot start moving he has 2.25 movespeed and it increases overtime to 3.75 (1.50 by 2 seconds, means +0.047 every 0.0625 seconds) if he attacks/stops then his movespeed resets to 2.25 just an random idea 125 minerals with a small warp in radius seems like a pretty good buff. | ||
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Ritos753
United States26 Posts
How about changing SC2 charge so that after charging, the Zealot can only move some percentage of its normal maximum speed for some amount of time? This still makes Zealots useful (can not be kited to death; they will steal do some damage), allows for repositioning from the enemy, and obligates the Protoss player to micro Zealots to their next destination/target since it gives them time to reevaluate the situation instead of the AI instantly choosing/moving for them. For this change, I think that the best way to approach it is to keep the "cooldown" (whatever you want to call it).high and the Zealot sustainability (hitpoints/shields or otherwise) high as well. This indirectly makes the battles last longer, allowing the players more time to orchestrate their wins via skill. random values: zealot speed is 2.25. charge speed is 3.75, charge duration is 2 seconds. when zealot start moving he has 2.25 movespeed and it increases overtime to 3.75 (1.50 by 2 seconds, means +0.047 every 0.0625 seconds) if he attacks/stops then his movespeed resets to 2.25 I like both these ideas, more the second one than the first, but charge needs a cooldown I think because otherwise a person could just patrol zealots at full 3.75 speed for a free charge hit. And I think the warp prism warp upgrade sohuld be 90-120 seconds but really cheap. In my opinion being able to warp in a small army with reaver support in someones base is like an mid game recall. Also about mutas, why not double damage but triple attack cooldown, makes it amazing a hit and run but terrible for a straight up engagement, Also is the HOTS regen implemented for mutas? If not why? Why were firebats removed and how much energy is matrix is it 50? if it isn't it should be. Lastly what is zealots move speed hp, can someone update the wiki? It is difficult for a casual participant to know what is going on without a good wiki. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On June 26 2013 11:52 Ritos753 wrote: Also about mutas, why not double damage but triple attack cooldown, makes it amazing a hit and run but terrible for a straight up engagement, Also is the HOTS regen implemented for mutas? If not why? Why were firebats removed and how much energy is matrix is it 50? if it isn't it should be. Lastly what is zealots move speed hp, can someone update the wiki? It is difficult for a casual participant to know what is going on without a good wiki. I agree with the fact that mutalisk should be about harassment. The more mutalisk you have the better you can HARASS. If this is what needs to be done for it to make that happen, then sure, let's do it. Mutalisk should not be that great in strait up engagements with the opponents army, rather excellent at picking off workers and stray units. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 26 2013 11:52 Ritos753 wrote: I think because otherwise a person could just patrol zealots at full 3.75 speed for a free charge hit. so thats where micro-rewards happens, as gamedesigners want On June 26 2013 11:52 Ritos753 wrote: Also about mutas, why not double damage but triple attack cooldown, makes it amazing a hit and run but terrible for a straight up engagement, no-no-no, currently for some reason 6 mutas can wipe out worker line within 10 seconds | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On June 26 2013 11:52 Ritos753 wrote: Also about mutas, why not double damage but triple attack cooldown, makes it amazing a hit and run but terrible for a straight up engagement, Because doing so would mess up the way Mutas interact with Capital ships. Capital ships have actually relative low HP compared to their cost(A BC would need 630 HP to get on the level of a marine). But they have high default armor to make up for that. The effect of this default armor scales with the attack strength of the enemies. A faster attacking unit with lower attack will be much more affected by it than a slow heavy hitter. While this would still be an overall damage decrease for the mutas, this would bring in 150% increased damage against a BC during the initial volley, an addtional 50% over the 100% damage increase. Almost fully negating the drawback of the speed decrease. The option is there through to give the mutas an extra attack instead of increasing the attack strength. Armor is calculated for each attack so doing so would only give 100% increase. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Good ideas. What I want to achieve: - Zealots vs Hydras/Marines combat shall be less predictable and harder to determine the outcome. - More room for the above units to be microed against each other, so micro becomes more important to determine which group of units will win. Preferably by a simple solution. - Charge gives a permanent speed upgrade. When the Zealot attacks, it can't move for 0,5 - 1 second. This gives room for enemy remicro. (An artificial way to recreate the BW dynamics. Will "dumbed down" AI cause even more headache?) - Fen1kz idea above: Zealots with Charge upgrade can reach move speed ca 3.75 if they move for a long time. As soon as they attack, they drop down to 2.5, and then starts to accelerate again. (This also gives room BOTH for enemy remicro and Zealot micro.) Will this look silly or be annyoing? - Recreate SC2 Charge as suggested by purakushi above. When I get time I will explore this in the editor. I encourage you all to do the same. @Mutas + Show Spoiler + Triple their attack cooldown and double their damage would look too strange. But I consider to increase their attack cooldown a little bit, so they can become a bit weaker in direct combat and stronger with hit-and-run attacks. They do have HoTS regeneration atm, but I think it is a weaker value. (Will check when I get acess to the editor again.) I did not know that their bounces do more damage atm. :O @Firebats and Matrix + Show Spoiler + Why were firebats removed and how much energy is matrix is it 50? if it isn't it should be. Matrix costs 50 energy atm. I removed the Firebat and instead added its traits onto the other bio units: - Medics can use Matrix to turn any unit into a "tanker." - Medics themselfes can now be used to block passages, choke points and create walls vs enemy melee units. - Reapers now deal splash damage vs light stuff. Both the Reaper and the Firebat are very narrow units and uselss in many match-ups. I found no good ways to make both of them more interesting. Does Terran need a tanky melee unit at all, especially since they got Matrix so early in the game? It just felt a bit redundant. BUT as usual, I am willing to reconsider my decision if it turns out that it was a horrible misstake! Feel free to discuss it. Have you missed the Firebat? Does Terran feel weaker now? Is there a gap in the Terran race? @Update Starbow wiki + Show Spoiler + I know, I know, I need to fix it. I have promised to send the values to GamanNo as soon as possible. As soon as I can use the editor again I will sit down and do it. T_T | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 26 2013 21:29 Kabel wrote: - Fen1kz idea above: Zealots with Charge upgrade can reach move speed ca 3.75 if they move for a long time. As soon as they attack, they drop down to 2.5, and then starts to accelerate again. (This also gives room BOTH for enemy remicro and Zealot micro.) Will this look silly or be annyoing? a few notes: 1) values completely random 2) long time is 1-3 seconds i've made a map, my first values was 2.25 to 4.75 over 2 seconds formula is (MaxSpeed - MinSpeed) / ( Seconds / 0.1); but after that i think it should be like: 2.5 to 4.00 over 2.5 seconds ((4.00-2.5)/(2.5/0.1) = 0.06 in the movement bonus (note +0.25 in the main behavior for making upgraded zealots 2.5)) anyway here's the map for playtesting, recreating this behavior is really simple: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19647338/Starcraft/sb-zealot.SC2Map | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Again I have feeling like stuff which isn't broken is beeing fixed. | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
You have to know there are conditions favorables to one army in diferents scenarios If you are in a open area zealots have the lead, if you are in a choke point its the opposite If ranged units have the critical mass then they still are a big threat and efficient to fight. Or you can choose to make a tech switch if you expect speedlots... Not everything have to be decided by MICRO, decision making matter aswell | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
www.starbow.wikia.com | ||
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