EPT[A] Starbow - Page 305
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On June 24 2013 06:55 Kabel wrote: I digged into the Baneling. Turns out that the damage values are from the HoTS campaign. 40 vs all! (Is suppose to be 20 vs all + 15 vs light) Each melee upgrade give +4 damage instead of the normal +2. Gonna adjust this for the tomorrow patch. My gawd, I saw that ages ago and supposed you'd come to some surprising decision that it was necessary or ideal. It surprises me that I might not have mentioned it. Anyway, suits me to make them as they are in SC2.  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 24 2013 06:59 Xiphias wrote: Math behind this: One larvae per 18 sec, 60 sec per min --> 60/18=3.333 larvae per minute. Increase of 60% --> 3.3333 * 1.6 = 5.3333 larvae per minute. I did try your thing and subtract 60% from 18 seconds and it turned out way OP with something like 7 larvae per minute, but that's not how it works. I tested it to make sure. Well I was just thinking about the effect of the queen it self which is just 1.833. Obv. since a queen costs half of a hatchery it is worth the money to get a queen if you have great injects. When that is said, I think (if possible) it is better to delay queens and get a super fast 3rd to minimize double mining. I think getting more than 2 queens though is generally a bad idea. On June 24 2013 07:00 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: My gawd, I saw that ages ago and supposed you'd come to some surprising decision that it was necessary or ideal. It surprises me that I might not have mentioned it. Anyway, suits me to make them as they are in SC2. I do wonder though - Would something like 25 vs light + 10 vs armored really be bad? Then we could make lurker the anti-light unit and baneling better against armored units while keeping both of them mobile? Banelings would still be relatively good at countering lings so zvz early game could still be a bit interesting. Evenutally we could slightly buff the AOE of them (?) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 24 2013 06:59 Kabel wrote: Nerve Jammer prevent every ground unit from attacking: Lurker, Baneling, Reaver and even Scarabs! Oh sorry - Previously it was just meele attacks. Does it also disable own units? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
1. Breed ability at the Viper. It places an egg on the ground. The egg hatches into a Creeper. It looks like this: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aTdLfZW.jpg) What shall the ability be called? What shall the unit be called? 2. I plan to give a new ability to the Observer. When activated, the Observer is not attacked by the enemy, unless target fired, for X seconds. This makes Protoss able to get vision of unattackable areas filled with Turrets + Siege tanks, or Lurkers + Overseer + Hydras. Suggestion for names? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Oh sorry - Previously it was just meele attacks. Does it also disable own units? It has never only disabled melee attacks. Atm it only disables enemy units. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
i dont think there's a problem with them, if they're good in ZvT with fast and cool attack - then leave them as is, better watch at protoss units. Mb i've played vs not enough lurkers, but they were ok to deal with. the only thing i want with lurkers - add louder sound and mb more clear attack, its hard to spot them unlike in BW where there was BZZZZZZZZZZ sound @queens just remove limit, queens are ok. i only wonder why they have chronoboost (even better!) but if u like it - they're ok, remove limit ah and also how do you think - shall i post bugs here or mb better to send you PMs? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On June 24 2013 08:40 Fen1kz wrote: @lurkers i dont think there's a problem with them, if they're good in ZvT with fast and cool attack - then leave them as is, better watch at protoss units. Mb i've played vs not enough lurkers, but they were ok to deal with. the only thing i want with lurkers - add louder sound and mb more clear attack, its hard to spot them unlike in BW where there was BZZZZZZZZZZ sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCidPPtNBqQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wJjw56OdGs @queens just remove limit, queens are ok. i only wonder why they have chronoboost (even better!) but if u like it - they're ok, remove limit ah and also how do you think - shall i post bugs here or mb better to send you PMs? I just watched one of our replays. in the Starbow ridge game you held the mid 13 minute pressure/attack quite easily as you went for a nexus first --> 1 gate --> robo --> 3rd --> mass gates. If any build order is the counter that has to be it. However, the problem is that it actually should be somewhat easily scoutable (overseer) by the zerg player and instead of lurker rushing he should just go for a 9-10 minute hydra attack (just before reaver gets out). That will either straight up kill you or force you to cancel your 3rd in which case your stuck on 2 bases for some time. Then the zerg can do this; 1) Tech to lurker. 2) Turtle outside your base (during this period he will have a lower worker count than the protoss player, however since he will be mining from 2 bases income willl be similar. 3) Deny observer vision with hydras + overseers which will make reavers somewhat inefficient. 4) Drone up. 5) After a couple of minutes the protoss should be able to reclaim the 3rd due to having enough reavers. However at that point in time the zerg will have twice the eco and could for instance tech switch to mutas or w/e. One of the differences between the starbow ridge game and the first game I won was that that you didn't do anything pressure-oriented in the former game. In the starbow ridge game you kinda forced my drones to not mine for some period to kill pylons/cannons at my 3rd which actually ended up costing me a bit of ressoruce. I am not convinced that that is the best harass-oriented approach, but I do think toss has pressure-oriented timings which needs to be developed to force the zerg into a lower drone count which will reduce the efficiency of the lurker timing attack. In the first game I then followed up with a lurker drop play while pressuring your 3rd - That attack is probably close to impossible to deal with since you need to defend 4 possible locations at once. In the Starbow rdige game the drop threat is easily dealt with by placing 2 cannons at the natural, and defending both the 3rd, the 4th and the natural is very very easy due to high ground advantage. Furthermore the map also benefits protoss as the rush distance is so small which makes it neccesary for the zerg to have a slightly lower drone count throughout the entire game. Thus too a large extent the threat of lurker/hydra midgime timing attacks are therefore dependant upon the map type. So far the entire discussion has been upon the assumption that the zerg opens hydra/lurker. What if Iinstead had gone for like 8:30 mutas, wouldn't that destroy any kind of robo opening? In the 3rd game you went for some kind of +1 charge timing attack which IMO seems stronger. Even if I had got the correct amount of hydras (I got 5 drones too much I think) it would force me into a very very low drone count quite early and unlike the above scenario, I wouldn't be capable of pressuring efficiently (you could just have retreated and claimed 3rd). Then after starting the 3rd you could go into robo, perhaps even double robo if the first robo scouted a lurker timing attack follow up (which would put the zerg completley allin.) My point with this theoretical analytical is to come the truth a bit closer. In the end I think lurkers are counterable as protoss if you have a really really solid gameplan. You need to understand eveyr single timing, when to attack (dependant on what you see) and when to move back. When to expo, when to get the various tech structures, how to play/react dependant on the specific map etc. In the end the strenght of the lurker isn't just the lurker it self, but the various other timings the zerg can hit which I believe could make it feel a bit coinflippy (or OP) if you don't have enough practice in the matchup. I do think we should be a bit cautious about making the game too hard too figure out, and therefore I wouldn't mind a small lurker nerf. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On June 24 2013 09:54 Laertes wrote: If everyone's fine with the new zealot then I guess I have to be fine about it too, but I think that the micro is all wrong, micro shouldn't be spam spam spam whenever you can, it should be a calculated effort. An ability that can be used any and all the time is just micro for the sake of artificially raising apm requirements. It is like blink, there is a cooldown involved. This lets you do things like trick your opponent into burning their zealot charge (much like stim). Also, attention is a finite resource. Even in top tier games you'll see groups of units that get crushed because their attention was spread too thin to take care of them. Spam=clicking a ton in a short period of time. Hitting the charge button is a very definite action you don't hit anywhere near enough for it to be defined as spam. It is like saying blink is also a "spam" ability. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
You put it good, December. Charge makes combat less one-dimensional between Zealots and especially Marines and Hydras. When Zealots had permanent fast movement speed, they would catch and beat Hydras and Marines easily. Hydras and Marines had to the splitting and micro, and it was very hard, compared to the "easy" micro Zealots had to do. Now Zealots CAN become fast again via Charge, IF the player pays attention to the Zealots. There are also some tricks involved, as running in and "sniping" a unit, use Charge when fleeing from combat, use Charge when moving across the map etc. I can understand that it is hard to get used to. Especially for new players. Which of course is a negative thing since that can prevent lower rank players from enjoying this. There is always a balance act: what is the positive outcome for the game compared to the negative outcome? In terms of design, yes it is kinda like Stim pack with some minor differences: It effects movement only. It gives a short and strong burst effect. It drains no life. But it is used in a similar way! That does not bother me so much, at least since it seems to contribute to a better gameplay. It can always be adjusted though. Atm it increases Zealot speed from 2.5 to 3.75 for 4 seconds. Cooldown 8 seconds. Maybe the duration can be prolonged? 5 seconds and cooldown 10 seconds. Makes it feel less spammy? Makes it feel similar to the cooldown of Blink? (Easier to remember when to use: "I just Blinked, now lets Charge. Now I can Blink again, ok I can Charge again too.") | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Since I still stuck stubbornly with the Reaper splash upgrade, I need to take it into accout when adjusting the Reapers start damage. (I really want Reapers to have a midgame/late game utility T_T) They start with 4x2 dmg and attack speed 1.1 in HoTS. If I add that value in Starbow, and just lets the splash upgrade convert that damage into splash, they will be quite good vs Hydras AND Zerglings. Which will be kinda annoying for Zerg... My suggestion is to give Reapers 3x2 dmg vs all, 5x2 dmg vs light. Attack speed 1.3. Lets compare the values: Hots: 4x2, attack speed 1.1 = 7,3 Damage per second. (440 damage per minute vs all) Currently in Starbow: 3x2, 6x2 vs light, attack speed 1.2 = 10 DPS (600 damage per minute vs light) My suggestion: 3x2, 5x2 vs light, attack speed 1.3 = 7,7 DPS (460 damage per minute vs light) This would make Reapers weak vs Stalker/Hydra, even with the splash upgrade. The DPS would be quite similar vs light units, as compared to HoTS. (Slightly higher actually to compensate for the lower life of Reapers.) Thoughts? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Dark Templars are currently cloaked when warped in. Is it like that in SC2/HoTS too? Personally I think it would be better if they are visible when warped in, so they can be countered by the opponent before they finish. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On June 24 2013 17:19 Kabel wrote: @Reaper damage Since I still stuck stubbornly with the Reaper splash upgrade, I need to take it into accout when adjusting the Reapers start damage. (I really want Reapers to have a midgame/late game utility T_T) They start with 4x2 dmg and attack speed 1.1 in HoTS. If I add that value in Starbow, and just lets the splash upgrade convert that damage into splash, they will be quite good vs Hydras AND Zerglings. Which will be kinda annoying for Zerg... Thoughts? You mean they will suck equally vs both? Look it is splash, Mobile splash even, but when is it ever going to be comparable to a siege tank? A mine? The dps of a goliath? The problem with the HOTS reaper is that it is a bunch of gimmicks latched on to one unit, none of which matters in a late-game scenario. Healing?: Doesn't matter when you actually die instantly. Speed: Irrelevant once most army units outrange you (Static defence too). Cliffjumping: See Speed So where is the late game utility then? Well WOL reapers had some: + Show Spoiler + This was the glory days of Late-game reapers, now keep in mind this was very much a strat that shined most on Shakuras but I still think it serves well as a blueprint for what we should try and move our reapers towards. Reaper harass was sickly dangerous, but their speed also had defensive uses. Terran doesn't have any Anti ground Static defences so when DT moves into the main(last place you would see a planetary) they must respond with their army(Just as we like it). But who wanna send stimmed Marines when Reapers can actually just get there in half the time. Zealot harass too. All this relied on the Reapers ability to actually kill said harass, something they don't currently have. In WOL they could with their +light damage(which was higher than it currently is in Starbow IIRC). So how do we mix the early game balanced Utility of the HOTS reaper with the intresting late game utility of the WOL reaper? Well my suggestion is that we ditch the splash and give reapers a factory-level Upgrade that gives them back the Anti-light damage. They still don't kill buildings as fast behaps we should bring that in too, but lets try the anti-light first. Also for no reason here is Carbots animation on how Reapers work in HOTS + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The reason I did not give it a pure +dmg bonus vs light upgrade, is that it would to the same thing as the Vulture: High dmg vs 1 Light unit. The thought of the splash upgrade, which also requires Factory, is to give the Reaper something unique: the only mobile Terran unit that deals decent splash. Is the upgrade really that useless in the late game? 4 Reapers with splash upgrade is a cheap investment in the mid/late game, and they will now be able to kill workers and buildings faster than Vultures. And they do not even need a Dropship.. But if you or someone else has a better suggestion how to add late game utility, I am curious to hear it! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
So how do we mix the early game balanced Utility of the HOTS reaper with the intresting late game utility of the WOL reaper? Well my suggestion is that we ditch the splash and give reapers a factory-level Upgrade that gives them back the Anti-light damage. I think that would make them similar too vultures. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 24 2013 09:54 Laertes wrote: An ability that can be used any and all the time is just micro for the sake of artificially raising apm requirements. i like this approach, exactly what i feel with new zealots. On June 24 2013 12:21 decemberscalm wrote: It is like blink, there is a cooldown involved. This lets you do things like trick your opponent into burning their zealot charge (much like stim). Also, attention is a finite resource. Even in top tier games you'll see groups of units that get crushed because their attention was spread too thin to take care of them. Spam=clicking a ton in a short period of time. Hitting the charge button is a very definite action you don't hit anywhere near enough for it to be defined as spam. It is like saying blink is also a "spam" ability. no, blink is about position, you can travel with blinks, it has much larger cooldown and it allows you to pass unpassable terrain. but charge currently feels like "wow lets add micro to zealots too so u need to charge them every 4-8 seconds" (i dont remember cooldown, but it is short) so the only need u to do is just spam charge every time to need to move ur zealots spam here means - often repeatedly click on button On June 24 2013 17:01 Kabel wrote: @Charge In terms of design, yes it is kinda like Stim pack with some minor differences: It effects movement only. It gives a short and strong burst effect. It drains no life. But it is used in a similar way! That does not bother me so much, at least since it seems to contribute to a better gameplay. and there's the problem. it doesnt have strong burst effect since its necessary to click it to be able to catch hydras and etc also as i saw zealots battle vs hydras this means i charge, first zealots attack, back zealots just running around, charge ends and hydra kite me till the end of cooldown, zealtos are still good because they're meatshield, but their charge not worth to put micro on but! it drains no life, means if i can mindlessly click it by cooldown (every time i select zealots f.e.) - battle could do better, so its spamming ability for apm sake 3 situations: 1) a streamer at 3rd starbow tournament: wow, fen using his blik to surround enemy forces, while blinking back damaged ones, that was cool, just like he catched those mutas 2 mins ago! 2) a streamer at 3rd starbow tournament: omg, fen used zealots charge to catch hydras! that was awesome! just like he used charge to get to marines last game! 3) same: ok fen preparing to push, STIIIMPACK (everyone understands that there comes the battle) boom bam. Wow he used stim only on back line marines, while forward ones remain full hp!! which one of these situations is not so funny as streamer says?  | ||
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