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I will delay the patch until tomorrow. (Again..)
I have some bugs I need to fix first that are harder than I expected
Lets look at Lurkers again:
160 HP
1 armor
22 dmg vs everyhing
Attack cooldown 2.5 seconds
Costs 125 + 125 (Including the Hydra cost)
Speed 2.95
They feel good in TvZ and ZvZ.
But in PvZ they destroy all Protoss ground very easily.
We have seen it in many games already.
I am tempted to modify something with them.
But I have to be careful so I do not ruin everything.
Hmm,... .. . . . .
One way to go is change the damage like this:
18 vs all
22 vs light
Or:
18 vs armored
20 vs all
22 vs light
This would still make them strong vs Marines, Zealots, Zerglings and workers.
Slightly weaker vs Vultures, Goliaths, Hydras, Ultralisks, Stalkers, Archons and structures.
Edit: Lurker speed
Half the fun of the unit is the mobility. It allows for harassment, flanking attacks and many other tricks, charge in together with the Zerglings and burrow near the Marines..
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actually hider had a pretty good idea for the lurkers.
just make them a little bit slower.. so they dont get to the fights so soon..
so they are more like terrans tanks than prtoss immortals..
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@Repears
We played some games where Azelja and Danko exploited early Reapers. They are really strong and can win the game alone vs Zerg.
Current stats
Costs 50/50
Life 50
Armor 0
Build time 40 seconds. (No tech lab)
Attack cooldown 1.2 seconds
Deal 3x2 dmg to anything, 6x2 vs light.
Speed 3.75
Regenerate life when out of combat.
The early Reapers offer Terran a good way of punishing greedy play from Zerg, Terran and Protoss.
I also want them to be useful in the game AFTER the first 6 minutes.
That is why I added the splash upgrade, so they get some usefulness later in the game:
- Strong splash harassment.
- Can be in the army as a way of dealing with clumped up Banelings, Zerglings and Zealots.
Possible adjustments:
- Lower the attack speed.
- Lower the starting damage.
- Lower the movement speed.
Thoughts?
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Well here is the HOTS stats if you wanna know.
Costs 50/50
Life 60 (+10 from Starbow)
Armor 0
Build time 45 seconds. (No tech lab) (+5 seconds from Starbow)
Attack cooldown 1.1 seconds (-0.1 from Starbow)
Deal 4x2 vs everything. (In general lower than Starbow)
Speed 3.75
Regenerate life when out of combat. (2 HP per second in SC2 not sure about Starbow).
So our reapers are probably better than SC2 reapers.
We have come a long way only to end up very close to SC2 through. I have a few ideas for how to make it more lategame viable, but i think we could start out by synergising their attack power.
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they indeed are extremely punishing for toss as well, you have to go 12gate and chrono out a stalker and even then you probably have taken a couple probe losses before the reaper is forced out + it keeps you contained. I was thinking that a forge opening might be the answer but that feels just weird, i think re-adding tech lab req is necessary.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 24 2013 00:33 Kabel wrote:
Thoughts?
techlab and we're ok. mb +5 sec build time if not enough
also i hope u noted my buglist i posted yesterday
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Lowering damage to 4*2 would increase the Zergling's pain-threshold by quite a bit, giving them more time to tank for queens or hunting reapers down. Also, you mentioned having only one Queen per hatch was a bug, so that *should* probably be enough to hurt reapers early on so that they can't catch Zerg completely off-guard.
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@Reaper
I like they do not require Tech lab. They can hit play early now and punish greedy play.
It also helps to encourage early game action.
Terran harassment:
Early early game - Reapers
Early game/mid game - Vulture
Mid game/late game - Banshee/Drop
Without tech lab reqreuiment, they really have their own place in the game.
With tech lab requirement, Reaper and Vulture can be built at the same time.
Players usually prefer Vulture because they are much better overall.
@Queen limit
I used to have a Queen limit in the game: only 1 Queen can be built for each Hatchery/Lair/Hive Zerg has.
It got removed when Starbow was rebuilt for HoTS.
After all, if Zerg wanna get many Queens.. why not?
(I don't remember why I implemented that limit in the first place.)
@Fen1kz bug list
Yeah I will try to solve as much as possible of it
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On June 24 2013 01:02 Azelja wrote:
Lowering damage to 4*2 would increase the Zergling's pain-threshold by quite a bit, giving them more time to tank for queens or hunting reapers down. Also, you mentioned having only one Queen per hatch was a bug, so that *should* probably be enough to hurt reapers early on so that they can't catch Zerg completely off-guard.
Yes I think the hots approach is the most simple and probably quite efificent as well.
Mid game/late game - Banshee
Uhm............ Big static defense redeisgn needed if you want me to get some of these over science vessels.
Regarding Sentinel. Try to add an attack to it. I would like to see 6 range and 13 damage to everything.
Then add in an robo bay upgrade where it receives +10 damage vs light. that will give it a role as an harass unit in the midgame without making it too good at early game harass. So too some extent that will solve the problem of it being an air-unit.
Also I still want to see all of its abilities be trap-based, as this will give it some kind of utility even if the opponent is doing a good job of defending his bases.
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So you never use a Banshee in SC2?
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On June 24 2013 01:39 Kabel wrote:
So you never use a Banshee in SC2?
Actually Banshee usage is close to like 0%.
Hellion/Banshee against Zerg might make a comeback, it might also not. Banshee in the late-game, can't remember the last time I've seen it ^^ Rarely used in TvT as well and has not been relevant in TvP since... well, kinda 1/1/1 died.
Edit: Well fuck me, Taeja is just going Hellion Banshee xD
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The queen limit is still there, believe me. And keep it that way!
Edit: Why? Mass queen early game shuts down harassment in a boring way.
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^ I also agree with the limit being a good thing.
I don't wanna have another end of WoL-type of TvZ Q_Q
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On June 24 2013 01:39 Kabel wrote:
So you never use a Banshee in SC2?
No. Don't think anyone really does - Perhaps some times in tvt people open cloack banshees.
I still think like "late early game" banshee openings in Starbow can be pretty decent to make your self unpredictable . But in terms of midgame/lategame I think they are just as useless as in Sc2.
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I'd also like to see cloak not requiring an upgrade. Getting an upgrade for 10 sec seems too big of an investment for too little. If 5 sec without upgrade was too good, maybe reduce it to 3 sec? I like it having an interesting ability right off the bat. Since it is not used much beyond early game anyways we'll very rarely see the cloak upgrade.
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@Banshee Cloak
The upgrade cost has been reduced to 100/100. (From 200/200.)
People have requested me to remove many upgrades from the game, and let units start with them instead. There will be no upgrades left if I do that. : /
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I think its okay if it requires an upgrade. Its just a problem if zerg can get mutas out at 9 minutes (then you will never want to open banshees against them). 11-13 minut mutas provides a much more interesting dynamic IMO. That is why I suggest to remove speed upgade for vulturues as it would make openings like reactor vulture or vulture into dropships much more viable which would make it neccesary for the zerg to either get speed or hydras before teching to lair. Right now it is also a neccesity due to OP reapers, however if/when reapers get a nerf, zerg will want to go back to 8-9 minute mutas which will force the terran into defending all game long.
Late game the problem is just realated to static defenses which either hard or soft counters all types of terran harass possibilities. I really don't think medivac instant unload fixes the fundenmental problem for 3 reasons;
1) It probably won't be enough ( I think the problem is of extreme dimensions IMO).
2) It doesn't make banshee harass viable.
3) In some situations it makes vulture harass not viable. But with vulutures two-shotting workers you also kind need static defenses to deal with vulture runbys.
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Anyone up for some games in 20 minutes?
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On June 24 2013 02:38 Kabel wrote:
Anyone up for some games in 20 minutes?
I need to go running. After maybe.
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On June 24 2013 00:50 SolidSMD wrote:
they indeed are extremely punishing for toss as well, you have to go 12gate and chrono out a stalker and even then you probably have taken a couple probe losses before the reaper is forced out + it keeps you contained. I was thinking that a forge opening might be the answer but that feels just weird, i think re-adding tech lab req is necessary.
I think it is okay that a reaper is out maybe 5-7 seconds before the stalker is out. It does make some early game micro into the game (pull back the injured workers). Obv. if reaper openings were so strong that they occured every single game this would be boring eventually. But as long as reaper openings are just one of a few viable openings I don't mind that you have to micro a bit against them to minimize damage.
But obviously they are problem now as they kill workers too quickly (6 damage). I think with 4 damage to light you would find it a bit easier to micro injured drones back.
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EPT
