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On June 23 2013 22:28 Kabel wrote:
Lets look at Lurkers again:
160 HP
1 armor
22 dmg vs everyhing
Attack cooldown 2.5 seconds
Costs 125 + 125 (Including the Hydra cost)
Speed 2.95
They feel good in TvZ and ZvZ.
But in PvZ they destroy all Protoss ground very easily.
We have seen it in many games already.
I am tempted to modify something with them.
Those changes aren't drastic but with them attacking a 83-84% of the attack speed, I wonder what changed so much in the Starbow metagame so that they're now very very strong.
Did you have Lurkers at 150/150 cost a long time ago? Otherwise this baffles me!
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On June 23 2013 22:28 Kabel wrote:
I will delay the patch until tomorrow. (Again..)
I have some bugs I need to fix first that are harder than I expected
Lets look at Lurkers again:
160 HP
1 armor
22 dmg vs everyhing
Attack cooldown 2.5 seconds
Costs 125 + 125 (Including the Hydra cost)
Speed 2.95
They feel good in TvZ and ZvZ.
But in PvZ they destroy all Protoss ground very easily.
We have seen it in many games already.
I am tempted to modify something with them.
But I have to be careful so I do not ruin everything.
Hmm,... .. . . . .
One way to go is change the damage like this:
18 vs all
22 vs light
Or:
18 vs armored
20 vs all
22 vs light
This would still make them strong vs Marines, Zealots, Zerglings and workers.
Slightly weaker vs Vultures, Goliaths, Hydras, Ultralisks, Stalkers, Archons and structures.
Edit: Lurker speed
Half the fun of the unit is the mobility. It allows for harassment, flanking attacks and many other tricks, charge in together with the Zerglings and burrow near the Marines..
Won't this just make them more similar to banelings (anti-light).
I still think the immobile slow lurker option gives a more clear defined role for the luker. Flanking and harassing can be done with the baneling as well, and its not like you cant overlord drop into an opponents base if the root time is increased by a further 0.7 seconds (especially if it gets compensated in some other way).
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Lurkerflanks are sexy, so i'm against making them slower. The real problem is still that it's really hard to engage them.
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On June 24 2013 03:14 SolidSMD wrote:
Lurkerflanks are sexy, so i'm against making them slower. The real problem is still that it's really hard to engage them.
So your solution is to buff relative mobility of protoss? Do you think a blink buff is enough?
Those changes aren't drastic but with them attacking a 83-84% of the attack speed, I wonder what changed so much in the Starbow metagame so that they're now very very strong.
Did you have Lurkers at 150/150 cost a long time ago? Otherwise this baffles me!
I think its a combinaation of 3 things;
1) They were probably always a bit OP vs protoss
2) Zerg received larva buff which put them in a better position going into midgame.
3) Stalker HP nerf.
I think the problem is that as zerg I can get so many lurkers at once becasue I have excessive gas (assuming I have gone hydras early game). So having something like 15 hydras and 8 lurkers in the midgame is just too strong. The protoss at that point will have maybe 2 reavers which requires ridiclously much more apm to use efficiently than lurker does.
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i'm not sure if that will address the issue, i'll have to play more vs midgame lurker/hydra pushes to know for sure, but sadly i wont be able to play until thursday.
It all depends on my opening as well of course, i usually do a corsair opening to be safe against muta-openings, but they aren't that good if zerg goes for hydra's, since they have a cooldown on lift instead of energy-use, so they're pretty limited to help defend. I've been thinking about going corsair/scout though, their missile will be really nice vs queens.
But to specify, when opening corsairs, a midgame hydra/lurker-push thus far rolled over me pretty hard.
edit: and that could also be because fen seems to be outplaying me with every race, so it could also be that he'd pwn me with any other strategy.
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So apparently lurkers don't scale with upgrades so I guess a fix is easy.
- Reduce default damage from 22 to 18. Give +2 damage for each upgrade so they are equally as strong at 2/2, and slightly stronger at 3/3.
- Reduce default armor from 1 to 0.
Observer suggestion: Give them an energy-based or activationbased ability which makes them A) Not automatically targetable and B) Makes them not appear on the minimap. Give it a duration of like 20 seconds or so. This will make it a lot easier for the protoss to scout how many tanks a turtling terran has and make it easier to kill lurkers (which with hydras and overseers easily can prevent observers).
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Xiphias discoverd an important thing:
The gas income is actually higher now!
For the past two months, while Dec and Xiphias made patches for Starbow, they reduced the gas income to 7.
It felt good and it was regarded as an overall improvement to the game.
When I came back, I increased gas income to 8.
BUT I added a 1 second delay to the Refinery/Assimilator/Extractor.
This meant that the gas income would be roughly the same as 7 per trip, but just have a "better" number.
(So workers collect 8 of both resources per trp.)
But it turns out that my adjustement had no effect in the game, which means that the gas income is back to the old 8.
This can help to explain why Zerg suddenly seems to have a Lurker explosion in the mid game.
I will fix this for the next patch that will be uploaded tomorrow.
@Observer ability
Good idea! I've been looking for a way to make both Protoss and Zerg able to "see into the darkness." Especially when Terran goes mech and puts up Turrets everywhere. Neither P or Z knows what they attack into, since all scouting units just die before they get to see anything. Zerg will get back Changeling. I considered to give Revelation to Observer. But this one sounds more fitting.
@Lurkers
There might be three problems with them;
1. It is easy to get a large amount of them in the mid game. (Will be fixed with gas change.)
2. It is so easy to deny the Observer (Will be fixed with a scouting ability at the Observer)
3. Lurkers still kill Stalkers easy?
Lurkers SHALL be strong. Just like sieged Siege tanks. When they sacrifice their mobility, they gain firepower in that area. But if Protoss has no good way at dealing with them, it just leads to turtling/fear of attacking.
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On June 24 2013 03:14 SolidSMD wrote:
Lurkerflanks are sexy, so i'm against making them slower. The real problem is still that it's really hard to engage them.
Yeah, me too actually. Being able to leap-frog lurkers like with tanks (at a faster rate though) to push ground is more interesting to watch when trying to chase M&M. Chase, burrow some, the others keep moving alongside the M&M, then burrow the second lot and unburrow the first lot, rinse & repeat.
Cool stuff. Slowing lurkers will ruin that.
On June 24 2013 03:11 Hider wrote:
- Reduce default armor from 1 to 0.
Whaaa?? Reduce resistance specifically to things with low damage per hit, like marines, which they're meant to be very good against aside from good micro?
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Yeah, me too actually. Being able to leap-frog lurkers like with tanks (at a faster rate though) to push ground is more interesting to watch when trying to chase M&M. Chase, burrow some, the others keep moving alongside the M&M, then burrow the second lot and unburrow the first lot, rinse & repeat.
Cool stuff. Slowing lurkers will ruin that.
They are already quite slow. They were as fast as stimmed marines in BW and few versions ago of starbow 
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Russian Federation216 Posts
addition to bugs above:
reaver and archone can't pass 1 square passage
this is not funny :<
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On June 24 2013 05:49 Danko__ wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, me too actually. Being able to leap-frog lurkers like with tanks (at a faster rate though) to push ground is more interesting to watch when trying to chase M&M. Chase, burrow some, the others keep moving alongside the M&M, then burrow the second lot and unburrow the first lot, rinse & repeat.
Cool stuff. Slowing lurkers will ruin that. They are already quite slow. They were as fast as stimmed marines in BW and few versions ago of starbow
Oh, that's very sad. T__T
Thank you for the update, Danko.
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Seriously, to all Zerg players: Upgrade Overlord speed and drop. Every. Single. Game.
Do it, trust me.
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Yeah. Agreed!
NUMERBS!
One hatchery produces 3.333 larvae per minute (assuming you use all your larvae)
With one queen CONSTANTLY injecting it produces 5.333 larvae per minute. (I think it generates 25 energy by the time the inject is over...)
Two hatches would ofc produce 6.666 larvae per minute.
A queen is only 150 minerals compared to the 300 min of hatch, so if we are just taking about larvae production you should have one queen at each hatch before making macro-hatches.
Good to know, right?
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@Queen limit 1 per Hatchery
I am a bit torn about this.
On the one hand, it does help to limit the Zerg defence. (Mass Queens are not that fun to fight against since they can become "invulnerable" with enough healing on each other.)
On the other hand, it also limits the options Zerg has; get extra Queen just for more Creep etc.
In the late game, bringing Queens to the battlefield when fighting vs Terran kinda helps to limit Irradiate too, since one Nurturing Swarm on a unit can be enough to make it survive Irradiate...
If Queen attack damage is just nerfed so they become less cost efficent as defenders?
Rather they shall just support the defence with Nurturing Swarm, and not actually be good at dealing damage?
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I just don't like the queen that much in general. It is slow, clumpy, not-too-zerg-like and annoying. I know these are bad arguments, but massing them just seems dumb. I like them being a bit strong and one per hatch....
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On June 24 2013 06:31 Xiphias wrote:
Yeah. Agreed!
NUMERBS!
One hatchery produces 3.333 larvae per minute (assuming you use all your larvae)
With one queen CONSTANTLY injecting it produces 5.333 larvae per minute. (I think it generates 25 energy by the time the inject is over...)
Two hatches would ofc produce 6.666 larvae per minute.
A queen is only 150 minerals compared to the 300 min of hatch, so if we are just taking about larvae production you should have one queen at each hatch before making macro-hatches.
Good to know, right?
Doesn't the queen increase larve producion by 60%? That would imply 3.33 * 0.6 = 1.85 (something like that).
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I digged into the Baneling. Turns out that the damage values are from the HoTS campaign.
40 vs all!
(Is suppose to be 20 vs all + 15 vs light)
Each melee upgrade give +4 damage instead of the normal +2.
Gonna adjust this for the tomorrow patch.
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Does lurker count as ground attack since nerve jammer deactived its attack or is NJ bugged again?
Awesome game though - Zerg really looks so much fun.
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On June 24 2013 06:48 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 06:31 Xiphias wrote:
Yeah. Agreed!
NUMERBS!
One hatchery produces 3.333 larvae per minute (assuming you use all your larvae)
With one queen CONSTANTLY injecting it produces 5.333 larvae per minute. (I think it generates 25 energy by the time the inject is over...)
Two hatches would ofc produce 6.666 larvae per minute.
A queen is only 150 minerals compared to the 300 min of hatch, so if we are just taking about larvae production you should have one queen at each hatch before making macro-hatches.
Good to know, right? Doesn't the queen increase larve producion by 60%? That would imply 3.33 * 0.6 = 1.85 (something like that).
Math behind this:
One larvae per 18 sec, 60 sec per min --> 60/18=3.333 larvae per minute.
Increase of 60% --> 3.3333 * 1.6 = 5.3333 larvae per minute.
I did try your thing and subtract 60% from 18 seconds and it turned out way OP with something like 7 larvae per minute, but that's not how it works. I tested it to make sure.
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EPT
