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On June 22 2013 22:59 Izerman wrote:kinda agree with feniks here. if he sees your dropships he should be able to put up a few cannons to deal with it.. banshees are super for harassment if they could shoot down  i think you overthink about this Hider.. EDIT : oh i just realized something.. Why not make with the cannons as Hider suggested earlier for Spinecrawlers for zerg? hypo : Cannons not chronoboosted : 10dmg with a relatively slow attack speed Cannons on chronoboost : 25dmg with a igher attackspeed? making it fairly usefull to drop to throw your opponent off? "getting the reaction from drops Hider seems to be wanting"
Yes banshees are good and hard to deal with without cannons and useless when cannosn are up. How in the earth is that great design? I think your missing the nuances of my suggestions, because they are two-fold;
1) Nerf static defense as harass-killers (buff them slightly as anti timing attacks and vs deathballs).
2) Give opponent slightly stronger unit-based tools to deal with harass (faster warp ins + rift for instance).
To be honest, I get the feeling your reading the posts to quickly (you shouldn't do that when you claim that other people overthink stuff); because I suggested the same type of activation-based solution for both spinecrawlers and photo cannons as well
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On June 22 2013 22:59 Izerman wrote:
hypo :
Cannons not chronoboosted : 10dmg with a relatively slow attack speed
Cannons on chronoboost : 25dmg with a igher attackspeed?
making it fairly usefull to drop to throw your opponent off?
"getting the reaction from drops Hider seems to be wanting"
The problem is getting the right balance between cannons being useful enough to help holding off early pushes on limited chronoboost vs being not being insanely OP when the player is on top of things later and in game and got 3 boosted cannons ready for any sort of harass.
Alright lets talk about something else. The range upgrade for marines. I think Hider's game yesterday gave us a good look at what it adds to TvP...
And quite frankly i am not impressed. I don't get the thrills from seeing 3 stalkers shooting at a bunker which then have 2 SCVs repairing for a minute or 2. And as we saw trying to push any futher than that as a protoss is kinda pointless..
What really is important is the contain effect which will still be maintained because it is only inside a bunker that marines can shoot back at the stalkers. However making that range baseline could potentially add something positive in other matchups mainly TvT Bio vs Mech which we currently are trying to improve.
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Yes banshees are good and hard to deal with without cannons and useless when cannosn are up. How in the earth is that great design?
It is the basics of cheese. You got something potentially killer lethal in your strategy if you manage to pull it off without getting noticed, but in reverse there exist some very accesable counteroptions that isn't part of the main production path of the opponent and as such it is only likely to be there if your opponent scouted it out.
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Home from work!
I will upload a new small patch today at 20.00 on EU. The patch will only contain small changes. MAYBE something larger is needed. Maybe not. I will not do anything drastic yet.
What I consider to do unless someone stops me with some good arguments:
Static defence
- Photon cannons attack cooldown increased to 2 seconds. When Chrono boosted they get 1.5 seconds cooldown.
(Current values are 1.5 and Chrono boosted 1.125)
- Spine Crawler damage reduced from 25 vs all, 30 vs armored, to 20 vs all and 25 vs armored.
- Zealots build time decreased from 38 to 34 seconds.
- Zealot Charge upgrade research cost lowered to 100/100 from 150/150.
- Warped in Protoss units warp in time reduced from 10 to 7 seconds.
- Dropships can unload units faster.
- Reapers new splash upgrade makes them deal the same damage vs light units as vs structures..
(6 vs everything, 12 vs light and 12 vs structures. The splash itself will not matter when attacking structures.)
- Nerf Viking damage from 12x2 to 10x2. (They feel very very strong at this point.)
- Increase Warp Prism speed when upgraded from 3.6 to 3.75.
(In comparision, Vikings have speed 3.5, Scourge 3.75, Mutalisks 4 and Corsair speed 4.25)
Why?
- If you have followed the thread, I will do some kind of nerf to static defence, just because I think that will lead to a more exciting and fun gameplay. I start with a small change.
As some of you have mentioned, nerfing the HP of static defence is another way to go.
But I will try a damage nerf first and see how it turns out.
I am afraid that early Hydra pushes will now be strong vs Protoss due to the weaker Cannons.
To compensate for this, P now has a faster build time on Zealots. (Which might also lead to more early game aggresion)
Charge is cheaper to research because it is no longer as strong as the old permanent speed upgrade.
Reapers bonus vs structures can help to make them more viable as harassers later in the game: not only destroy workers, but also lone buildings in bases. Since they are so fragile, they will not be able to just overwhelm static defence too easily without support.
Vikings currently seem very strong vs all other air units. The damage nerf will probably make them more.. balanced.. :p
Warp Prism with faster speed makes them able to harass slightly better. Vikings and Scourges can currently easily catch them, which might scare away P from harassing at all, since it is so easy to get caught.
Does this make sense?
Does it look like it can work in the game?
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On June 23 2013 01:01 Kabel wrote:
- Spine Crawler damage reduced from 25 vs all, 30 vs armored, to 20 vs all and 25 vs armored.
- Zealots build time decreased from 38 to 34 seconds.
- Zealot Charge upgrade research cost lowered to 100/100 from 150/150.
- Warped in Protoss units warp in time reduced from 10 to 7 seconds.
O_O
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Ah come on, that will not help Starbow at all : p
Exactly what is the problem you see?
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Zealots, Zealots everywhere!
I hear they're getting closer
Their howls are sending chills down my spine
And time is running out now
They're coming down the hills from behind
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haha, because he lost vs me when i used mass zealots warped in everywhere with warpprisms :D
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Queens, Queens everywhere!
I see their energy spent
on Injects and Creep who works like alarm
I wonder how combats went
if they instead used it on Nurturing Swarm
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oh my, we got some poets over here!
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Inject isn't really that useful in mid-late game, Queen energy is better spent on creep and transfuse. With 3-4 macro hatches, you have enough larva to not float minerals ^^
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Yeah ok ok,
when the wolfs howl I better listen to them...
What about this then:
- Photon cannons attack cooldown increased to 2 seconds. When Chrono boosted they get 1.5 seconds cooldown.
(Current values are 1.5 and Chrono boosted 1.125)
- Spine Crawler damage reduced from 25 vs all, 30 vs armored, to 20 vs all and 25 vs armored.
- Zealot Charge upgrade research cost lowered to 100/100 from 150/150.
- Warped in Protoss units warp in time reduced from 10 to 7 seconds.
- Dropships can unload units faster.
- Reapers new splash upgrade makes them deal the same damage vs light units as vs structures..
(6 vs everything, 12 vs light and 12 vs structures. The splash itself will not matter when attacking structures.)
- Nerf Viking damage from 12x2 to 10x2. (They feel very very strong at this point.)
- Increase Warp Prism speed when upgraded from 3.6 to 3.75.
(In comparision, Vikings have speed 3.5, Scourge 3.75, Mutalisks 4 and Corsair speed 4.25)
And yes, my poem did suck >.<
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It's OK I guess, but I'd rather see chornoed canons have their old stats and not mess with the zealot. Faster zealots has been tried before (if I remember correctly) and was too hard for zerg to deal with. Won't be any easier now with spines dmg reduction. To make sure no one misunderstands. I agree with changing canons when they are not chonoed, but make chornoed canons be as good as before.
PS: I also think it's funny that me and Dec started working on making canons worse without chorno some weeks ago (-1 range) and all hell broke lose, but now, all agree it's a good idea....
Edit: I wrote this before you posted above. No faster zealot = probably good
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But wasn't the ado about the fact that it was "bad for the theme" to make Cannons get +1 range from Chrono boost, since range has nothing to do with time?
Not the fact that Cannons got even weaker without Chrono boost, and then stronger with them?
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Probably. We were thinking about the concern HideR is raising again and not a "theme"
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I'm still of the opinion that the nerf isn't necessary xiph :d.
there are still many ways to deal with static D, for example lings+dark will wreck cannons easily.
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THE WOLFS , THE WOLFS!
ARGHHH
YEAh ok I will delay the patch. Lets play and discuss this for one more day. I have more time available tomorrow, so I can do some other adjustements and bug fixes, instead of uploading a half-assed patch today and another one tomorrow.
Here is how my life looks like in the next 30 minutes:
1. Cook.
2. Eat.
3. Log in to B.net and own you all.. ... . .. .. . .. . . . .
ps. It is cute when this thread shifts from being hyper-serious to just relaxing friendly in game chat talk ^^
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Depends on a lot of stuff... how the mood is, kekeke. 
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EPT
