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I don't think it's necessary to nerf static defense to make harass more viable, this is merely a metagame problem. People are still figuring out how to play this game and it's easier to do so if you overdefend bases with static defense, when this all gets figured out, people will have to cut on defences or just fall behind (6 cannons at an expo can make it harassproof but in a close game you could only use 2 cannons and use the other 600 minerals for a warp prism + 4 zealots and drop them somewhere.
You don't know that yet. Its just a theory - Maybe cannons are efficient afterall. But the overall point is - Starbow will never be figured out since players don't play it enough. Instead, Starbow needs to be designed in such a way that it is absolutely clear that it isn't efficient to rely on static defenses as harass-killers. We shouldn't rely on the game to be figured out before it gets "fun". Instead we should make it fun before it gets figured out. In my opinion its the responsbility of the game designer to make sure that the game is fun the 1st time you play it, the 20th time and the 1000th time. Thus I want to eliminate non-fun tactics from the game.
Most important part i think is that harass doesn't need to do damage to be effective, taxing the apm of your opponent is way more important, it's easy to send one ghost to nuke an expo, it's annoying to find it, it taxes the multitasking of your opponent. Why is it easy to win versus inferior players? Not necessarily because you're smarter, mainly because he can't keep up. Taxing your enemies attention works the same way, a great example is Innovation, he is so fucking fast. I've seen him just keep attacking on and on versus zergs and expand everywhere, he doesn't even need to get static defense at his expo's because the enemy can't keep up with multitasking and it doesn't matter if he loses his army cost-inefficiently, his macro is just so baller that he remaxes freeking fast and you can't send part of your army to harass because he will just roll over your base if you do.
I hear Idra and Artosis talk about this in BW (that better players aren't cost effective with their harass but use it to fuck up the opponents micro). There are two problems with this approach;
1) Its not really relevant in Sc2 as macro is relatively easy.
2) Its not really a good approach either (even if it was relevant) as it implies that a lesser skilled/equally skilled player can't harass the opponent.
Sophisticated defense requires sophisticated harass, you can't expect to easymode break those defenses. You gotta solve it like a puzzle.
Some examples of harass that i haven't seen much (because i really suck at explaining things, i'm pretty sure everyone that reads this isn't gonna understand what i'm trying to say).
nukes are excellent to clean up static defenses, turrets and cannons die to 2 nukes if i'm not mistaken.
warpprism with 2 zealots and 2 ht, zealots take the first hits from defending tanks/mines, ht's clean up the mineral line in seconds.
zealots + dt's, take out the turrets fast, there's always a big chance the enemy didn't notice your dt's right away and they're gonna be annoying as hell.
lurkers + dark swarm, annoying as fuck.
When something gets too complicated, people are just not gonna bother. I don't think complicating harass adds anything to the game in terms of entertainment value. Especially becasue setting up static defenses doesn't really require a brilliant tactical decision making - Its a brain dead action which or may not be effective. But regardless, we should never see this as it just creates boring gameplay.
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Im not totally sure yet. I think the potential issue with the new reapers is that its a splash damage unit which can't be microed against (from the opponents POV). For all splash damage units in the game (whether its a spellcaster or a battle unit) there are micro-techniques to minimize damage. But how is the opponent supposed to react to the new reaper? To me a reaper with splash seems like its all about critical numbers. Once you get X of them, and the terran is good enough to shift click attack banelings, then every single baneling will die every single time before they ever get a decent detonation of.
Compare this to how you would play against tanks; Zerg players would benefit by sending in a small group of zerglings first to tank the initial shot and mix in banelings along the lines of zerglings to make shif-target firing with tanks quite difficult. Also, there is the possiblity ofabusing the immobility of tanks which zerg players with great multitasking are better at than players with bad multitasking.
Based on the few TvZs I've seen with Reapers:
The "fun" aspect of fighting vs Reapers is the dance up and down terrain.
Trying to surround, trying to lure, trying to flank etc.
Reapers are very fragile and can not just stand still and kill stuff. They must back, shoot, back etc to be efficent.
If they stand still, they are easily killed by enemy units. No matter if they have the splash upgrade or not.
A critical number of any ranged unit within the same small area will often kill enemy Banelings too.
If T manages to select the Reapers, shift click all the attacking Banelings down, well.. why not?
Would it not kinda be the same thing if Hellions managed to do it?
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On June 22 2013 01:32 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +Im not totally sure yet. I think the potential issue with the new reapers is that its a splash damage unit which can't be microed against (from the opponents POV). For all splash damage units in the game (whether its a spellcaster or a battle unit) there are micro-techniques to minimize damage. But how is the opponent supposed to react to the new reaper? To me a reaper with splash seems like its all about critical numbers. Once you get X of them, and the terran is good enough to shift click attack banelings, then every single baneling will die every single time before they ever get a decent detonation of.
Compare this to how you would play against tanks; Zerg players would benefit by sending in a small group of zerglings first to tank the initial shot and mix in banelings along the lines of zerglings to make shif-target firing with tanks quite difficult. Also, there is the possiblity ofabusing the immobility of tanks which zerg players with great multitasking are better at than players with bad multitasking. Based on the few TvZs I've seen with Reapers: The "fun" aspect of fighting vs Reapers is the dance up and down terrain. Trying to surround, trying to lure, trying to flank etc. Reapers are very fragile and can not just stand still and kill stuff. They must back, shoot, back etc to be efficent. If they stand still, they are easily killed by enemy units. No matter if they have the splash upgrade or not. A critical number of any ranged unit within the same small area will often kill enemy Banelings too. If T manages to select the Reapers, shift click all the attacking Banelings down, well.. why not? Would it not kinda be the same thing if Hellions managed to do it?
I definitely see that there are a lot of ways for the terran to micro reapers. My concern was more about the possiblities for the opponent to micro against it. If his opportunites are very limited the reaper will be unbalanceable across skill levels as it will be relatively bad at lower levels and imbalanced at higher levels.
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But that is what I mean: Players can micro against the Reaper by dong all of this: flanking, lure them, catch them, surround both on top of the cliff and below the cliff etc..
Are the enemy opportunities really that limited?
Well, if it turns out like that ingame the some adjustements might be necessary.
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On June 22 2013 01:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think it's necessary to nerf static defense to make harass more viable, this is merely a metagame problem. People are still figuring out how to play this game and it's easier to do so if you overdefend bases with static defense, when this all gets figured out, people will have to cut on defences or just fall behind (6 cannons at an expo can make it harassproof but in a close game you could only use 2 cannons and use the other 600 minerals for a warp prism + 4 zealots and drop them somewhere. You don't know that yet. Its just a theory - Maybe cannons are efficient afterall. But the overall point is - Starbow will never be figured out since players don't play it enough. Instead, Starbow needs to be designed in such a way that it is absolutely clear that it isn't efficient to rely on static defenses as harass-killers. We shouldn't rely on the game to be figured out before it gets "fun". Instead we should make it fun before it gets figured out. Show nested quote +Most important part i think is that harass doesn't need to do damage to be effective, taxing the apm of your opponent is way more important, it's easy to send one ghost to nuke an expo, it's annoying to find it, it taxes the multitasking of your opponent. Why is it easy to win versus inferior players? Not necessarily because you're smarter, mainly because he can't keep up. Taxing your enemies attention works the same way, a great example is Innovation, he is so fucking fast. I've seen him just keep attacking on and on versus zergs and expand everywhere, he doesn't even need to get static defense at his expo's because the enemy can't keep up with multitasking and it doesn't matter if he loses his army cost-inefficiently, his macro is just so baller that he remaxes freeking fast and you can't send part of your army to harass because he will just roll over your base if you do. I hear Idra and Artosis talk about this in BW (that better players aren't cost effective with their harass but use it to fuck up the opponents micro). There are two problems with this approach; 1) Its not really relevant in Sc2 as macro is relatively easy. 2) Its not really a good approach either (even if it was relevant) as it implies that a lesser skilled/equally skilled player can't harass the opponent. Show nested quote +Sophisticated defense requires sophisticated harass, you can't expect to easymode break those defenses. You gotta solve it like a puzzle.
Some examples of harass that i haven't seen much (because i really suck at explaining things, i'm pretty sure everyone that reads this isn't gonna understand what i'm trying to say).
nukes are excellent to clean up static defenses, turrets and cannons die to 2 nukes if i'm not mistaken.
warpprism with 2 zealots and 2 ht, zealots take the first hits from defending tanks/mines, ht's clean up the mineral line in seconds.
zealots + dt's, take out the turrets fast, there's always a big chance the enemy didn't notice your dt's right away and they're gonna be annoying as hell.
lurkers + dark swarm, annoying as fuck. When something gets too complicated, people are just not gonna bother. I don't think complicating harass adds anything to the game in terms of entertainment value. Especially becasue setting up static defenses doesn't really require a brilliant tactical decision making - Its a brain dead action which or may not be effective. But regardless, we should never see this as it just creates boring gameplay.
When i talk about taxing their multitasking, where exactly did i state macro being the only thing to disrupt? Think of attention as a resource, if i can split my attention to 3 battles at the same time and my opponent is only watching one, how many battles is he gonna win?
A lesser skilled player can harass, but will stop doing so once he can't keep up with the enemy. For example banshee vs banshee, the lesser skilled player wont be able to both defend and micro his banshee, he will lose his banshee and take more damage from the opponent banshee, slowly falling behind.
"It's just a theory"... everything in your post is also just a theory.
"I don't think complicating harass adds anything to the game in terms of entertainment value." what? If i see a good stormdrop, it is 1000 times more entertaining than seeing a dropship full of marines unload and stim.
Setting up static defense is a no-brainer, seeing someone pick it apart in style is brilliant.
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Just want to add: +1 to Solid's post about defenses.
Static defenses is an investment and should pay off. Noobs will always cover their bases on canons, and pro's should always make as little, but effective defences as possible. I LOVE! how adding units to defences always (and should) make them so much better. Canons + HT's and reavers, turrents and bunkers + tanks and mines and spines and spores + lurkers and defilers (for dark swarm). Static D should give OK defence, static D + units should give you AWESOME defence.
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On June 19 2013 10:44 Meerel wrote:
any terran mech replays i can watch on my maps?
Reupping this.
Which map is Meerel's?
I didn't last see text in the descriptions for the maps last time I checked either (which should at least be crediting each map maker.
Haven't been able to be on at EU time zones lately 
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Isn't it possible to mix in a few reapers in your marine medic and really just annihilate lings and banes like its easy?
Firebats had to care about position and were lured to spines and enemy units constantly because of their melee range, they had to be baby sat. If you kept them in front hydralisks would kill them first. If you kept them in back your marines could be dead before your firebats even start to work.
Reapers shouldn't care about where the opponents units are and they hit like a truck. You could simply follow move the vanguard of your marine medic force, or just matrix them during combat.
I'd love to see how this works in actuality.
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@ New patch:
I will start to upload it now.
Here are the changes:
- Vulture speed and attack are reworked so they are "easier" to control. (December has fixed this! Do you wanna explain the details what the difference will be and how to use the Vulture in the most optimal way now?)
- Stimpack resarch time reduced to 140 from 170 seconds.
- Reapers require no Tech lab. (I did not rework any stats for the Reaper)
- Reapers splash upgrade requires Factory. Takes 140 seconds to research instead of 170.
- Sentinel got reworked a bit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=297#5934
It is not perfect. I am still not satisfied. But it will be better than the current useless Sentinel in the game >.<
There are of course more stuff to fix/improve in the game. This is only a small update. More will come in a few days!
@New map in the map pool
Mereel aka Terranlover has blessed us with a new map: http://i.imgur.com/20BPx7Q.jpg
(How do I get the image to be seen as an image in the thread and not only as a link?)
@December
Good points about Reaper. Maybe it turns out to be bad : /
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On June 22 2013 01:54 Kabel wrote:
But that is what I mean: Players can micro against the Reaper by dong all of this: flanking, lure them, catch them, surround both on top of the cliff and below the cliff etc..
Are the enemy opportunities really that limited?
Well, if it turns out like that ingame the some adjustements might be necessary.
Maybe they can - Problem I see with all of those tricks though is that they rely on the terran messing up. Like the zerg will need to cross fingers and hope that the terran will fall into the trap so he can flank/surround them. Maybe i am wroung though - It definitely requires more testing.
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Now everything is updated on EU.
I will come online now!
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The Vulture
If Kabel set it up correctly how my test map was, here is how the new vulture will work.
The new vulture will accelerate and decelerate immediately like the hellion. No shooting or stopping and simply being unable to escape because your vulture hasn't gained speed yet.
However, the vulture will turn instantly while on the move but not when it is stationary.
This means that when you attack move or stop while there is an enemy in range, he'll have to turn relatively slowly (compared to instantly) to face the target and then shoot.
Move towards your target before issuing an attack command and then immediately retreat to get the most out of your vulture.
You can still kite and shoot without first moving towards the target, but this takes longer for the vulture to shoot.
The more accurate you are in facing a target before attacking, the less time it takes to get a shot off.
Disclaimer: This is pretty much a direct buff to the vulture. It is more survivable due to easier escape micro now.
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Unit test map "Starbow Tester" Updated!
Great december, very nice vulture change.
For reaper, I think that is taking the right path.
Nice new map
gl hf
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Russian Federation216 Posts
about this night:
1) fix zerg hotkeys pls:
banenest to F, spine to Z, spore to X
queen bug
2) stimpack hotkeys!!!! when i select rines+medics stimpack should be still at Z, not X
and about last game - i lost not because i havent used reapers or ghosts or etc - i lost because i was too scared by his ling-lurker build so then i letted xiph to expand and establish macro. should've attacked with my full force after lurker drop
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Some players report problems with the hotkeys:
Fen1kz (godking) want me to put Spine Crawler on the Z button, Spore on X, Baneling nest on F, Stimpack on X. (The button positions.)
Solid can not see hotkeys? (Or what was the problem now again?)
Is there any way to make everyone happy with the hotkeys? Or will there always be disturbance since players use their own custom hotkeys? Or is there a way to make the hotkeys ALWAYS be similar for everony?
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i couldn't see the hotkeys on arbiter and corsair if i remember right
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@Static defence
I have to agree with Hider on this.
The problem is that static defence is very efficent.
It is cheap and strong and requires no attention.
It is easy to completely secure a base.
This forces two things for the gameplay:
- Players can not harass with small armies or drops.
- Players must doom drop or attack with the entire army.
We see this happening in many games. We saw it in games today. It really does stop harassment.
I even made a Paint picture about it :p
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kDck4S1.jpg)
Yes, static defence is an investment.
Yes, static defence shall help to defend.
I just think it needs to be less cost efficent.
It should SUPPORT the defence.
Not be the only defence needed. <------------------------------
Suggested proposals to the static defence:
- Cannons become weaker overall. Much stronger when Chrono boosted.
Current stats:
+ Show Spoiler +150 HP/150 shield
Costs 150 minerals
Damage 20
Attack speed 1.250
Range 6
When Chrono boosted they attack 25% faster for 12 seconds. And they really do kill shit fast EVEN without Chrono boost...
Potential change:
+ Show Spoiler +
150HP/150 shield
Damage 20
Attack speed 2 or even 2.25
Range 6
When Chrono Boosted they attack with speed 1.25 or 1 for 12 seconds..
This would make them stronger when the defender pays attention to them and boost them.
This means there is a weakness in Cannons: Even a Dropship with Marines can do some damage UNTIL the Protoss player responds with Chrono. (And makes sure to manage the energy in all his Nexi.)
This also offers room for some dance between players: Attack a base, P uses Chrono, retreat, attack again when Chrono ends.
- Spine Crawler just gains a damage nerf.
+ Show Spoiler +
Current stats:
Life 300
Armor 2
Cost 150 + 50 from Drone
25 damage vs everything and 30 vs armored.
Range 7
Attack speed 1.85
Proposed change:
Damage nerfed to 20 vs everything, or maybe 25 vs armored.
Maybe reduce range by 1.
Zerg units are HIGH DPS and low HP.
Static defence for Zerg should be support. Buy TIME for the Zerg units to deal the damage.
Zerg can already reinforce so much easier with Creep speed boost, faster Larva spawn rate, Queens can Heal their own defences and much more...
Impacts this can have on the gameplay:
+ Show Spoiler + - Protoss would need to use Reavers or HT with Storm for defence. How often do we see that? Almost never.
- Zerg can use Lurkers and Defilers with Dark Swarm. For defence! (Maybe Nydus if it comes back.)
- Terran already needs Tanks + Spider mines in many cases. (Because PF is NOT strong enough alone anymore.!!!)
This would also encourage the need of more mutlitasking abilities:
- Rift, Warp in and Chrono boost on Cannons.
- Zerg must send armies to the attacked locations. If he is attacked at many locations at the same time, he can not just send the deathball to the same place... Heal on Queen becomes even more important to use on the Crawlers.
Ok, shoot. How would this make the gameplay worse?
What would the consequenses be of the suggested nerfs to static defence?
(Or something similar)
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On June 22 2013 06:23 Kabel wrote:
Fen1kz want me to put Spine Crawler on the Z button, Spore on X, Baneling nest on F, Stimpack on X. (The button positions.)
Stimpack should be Z. Currently it is on X on medics, so if i select medics+marines it is on X position
both in original sc2 and old starbow it was on Z position
On June 22 2013 06:23 Kabel wrote:
Solid can not see hotkeys? (Or what was the problem now again?)
Erm, i think he should check gameplay options to enable hotkey showing
On June 22 2013 06:23 Kabel wrote:
Is there any way to make everyone happy with the hotkeys? Or will there always be disturbance since players use their own custom hotkeys? Or is there a way to make the hotkeys ALWAYS be similar for everony?
i think way to make everyone happy is to mirror as much sc2 vanilla as possible.
so, 3 checkpoints:
1) leave old hotkeys on old units (this will make standart hotkeys users happy)
2) leave old units on old positions (with exceptions like protoss stargate or terran factory) [this will make grid hotkeyers happy]
3) make new units hotkeys from removed units [this will make any others happy]
so stimpack and zerg rearrange are highly demanded since there's no holes in command cards by rearranging buttons
and about these changes im not so sure:
[stalker at E] (W is the hole)
[tank at E] (so it will be vulture (Q), goliath (W) and tank (E))
also need to check terran starport and zergs, but im too sleepy, mb laterr.
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On June 22 2013 03:54 decemberscalm wrote:
The Vulture
If Kabel set it up correctly how my test map was, here is how the new vulture will work.
The new vulture will accelerate and decelerate immediately like the hellion. No shooting or stopping and simply being unable to escape because your vulture hasn't gained speed yet.
However, the vulture will turn instantly while on the move but not when it is stationary.
This means that when you attack move or stop while there is an enemy in range, he'll have to turn relatively slowly (compared to instantly) to face the target and then shoot.
Move towards your target before issuing an attack command and then immediately retreat to get the most out of your vulture.
You can still kite and shoot without first moving towards the target, but this takes longer for the vulture to shoot.
The more accurate you are in facing a target before attacking, the less time it takes to get a shot off.
Disclaimer: This is pretty much a direct buff to the vulture. It is more survivable due to easier escape micro now.
Out of all the things that come to my mind when I hear "Vulture" - the phrase "How about a buff?" does certainly not come to mind ^^
On June 22 2013 07:10 Kabel wrote:@Static defenceI have to agree with Hider on this. The problem is that static defence is very efficent. It is cheap and strong and requires no attention. It is easy to completely secure a base. This forces two things for the gameplay: - Players can not harass with small armies or drops. - Players must doom drop or attack with the entire army. We see this happening in many games. We saw it in games today. It really does stop harassment. I even made a Paint picture about it :p ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yi877hd.jpg) Yes, static defence is an investment. Yes, static defence shall help to defend. I just think it needs to be less cost efficent. It should SUPPORT the defence. Not be the only defence needed. <------------------------------ Suggested proposals to the static defence: - Cannons become weaker overall. Much stronger when Chrono boosted. Current stats: + Show Spoiler +150 HP/150 shield
Costs 150 minerals
Damage 20
Attack speed 1.250
Range 6
When Chrono boosted they attack 25% faster for 12 seconds. And they really do kill shit fast EVEN without Chrono boost... Potential change: + Show Spoiler +
150HP/150 shield
Damage 20
Attack speed 2 or even 2.25
Range 6
When Chrono Boosted they attack with speed 1.25 or 1 for 12 seconds..
This would make them stronger when the defender pays attention to them and boost them.
This means there is a weakness in Cannons: Even a Dropship with Marines can do damage UNLESS the Protoss player responds quickly. (And makes sure to manage the energy in all his Nexi.)
This also offers room for some dance between players: Attack a base, P uses Chrono, retreat, attack again when Chrono ends.
Current stats:
Life 300
Armor 2
Cost 150 + 50 from Drone
25 damage vs everything and 30 vs armored.
Range 7
Attack speed 1.85
Proposed change:
Damage nerfed to 20 vs everything, or maybe 25 vs armored.
Maybe reduce range by 1.
Zerg units are HIGH DPS and low HP.
Static defence for Zerg should be support. Buy TIME for the Zerg units to deal the damage.
Zerg can already reinforce so much easier with Creep speed boost, faster Larva spawn rate, Queens can Heal their own defences and much more...
- Protoss would need to use Reavers or HT with Storm for defence. How often do we see that? Almost never.
- Zerg can use Lurkers and Defilers with Dark Swarm. For defence! (Maybe Nydus if it comes back.)
- Terran already needs Tanks + Spider mines in many cases. (Because PF is NOT strong enough alone anymore.!!!)
This would also encourage the need of more mutlitasking abilities:
- Rift, Warp in and Chrono boost on Cannons.
- Zerg must send armies to the attacked locations. If he is attacked at many locations at the same time, he can not just send the deathball to the same place... Heal on Queen becomes even more important to use on the Crawlers.
It's just really fucking easy to get a lot of cannons because we have fucking terrible macro. Though cannons are definitely strong, too strong with chrono boost (imo), I feel like dropping on top of them... or running a small taskforce of like 5 marines + some medics into 3 cannons is a subpar idea, that does not imply an apparent bad state of static d, lol.
Chronoboosted cannons kinda feel like the stacked cannons through fog of war in BW custom games, tbh. Maybe just nerf cannons as they are and let the now-cannons become the new "that's what they do when they are cb'd" cannons.
Range nerf on spines might be fine, as it would bring them to the range of marines in a bunker and the pcannon. However, getting spines is still a comparatively bigger investment than planting down cannons, seeing as how you sacrifice drones, thus cutting your own flesh/income. Personally haven't had too much difficulty with spines in TvZ, so I dunno. In ZvT, Vultures just fuck them cause they don't die, in ZvP they buy time for reinforcements to come because Zealots just go ham on them as well. So I personally don't see the necessity to nerf the damage (yet).
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EPT
