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- Reapers become viable earlier. (No tech lab requirement and faster build time!)
I think this could be done. Not sure if it should be faster build time or no Tech lab.
- The Reaper splash upgrade deals extra damage vs Mechanical.
Would still not be able to reach tanks yet alone kill them. Changes nothing
- Reapers do not activate Spider mines.
That is kinda a wierd rule. I don't like it.
- Faster Stimpack upgrade? (Will it break other matchups?)
Could be done. Doupt it will break vs Protoss without marauders.
-Remove the +1 Range upgrade? Let them start with it?
I don't see why not. The early stalker harass doesn't really do anything for the matchup.
-Add the Combat shield upgrade that reduces splash? Would it actually help to make Bio more viable in TvT and TvP?
I think we should try and start with the vanilla +10 HP shield. It actually only bring the marine on the level of other bio units... Also allows stimmed marines to survive a tankshell.
- Medics inside Dropships can heal Marines inside Dropships.. (Sumadins idea.)
And i still support it.
- If we wanna go mental: Medics inside Dropships can actually heal units outside the Dropship.. O_o
Woah now, One thing at a time. I got some other ideas for Dropship before we try that. Might aswell make them medivacs at that point anyway. Comes with a nicer model too.
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Static defence disabling abilities: From SC2 i can mention Blinding cloud as a masterpiece. It finds itself useful against armies and even works to completely disable static defence. A planetary is no match for more sophisticated harass from Zerg. PDD works the same way for Terran through i don't see it very often... I think we could figure somthing similar out for Starbow.
I think binding cloud works terrible in Sc2. UP vs everything but siege tanks which it is insanely OP against.
Regarding its role as staticdefense killers, it reminds me of a quote from Steve Jobs, who said something in the lines; "When you need a pen in order to type on the tablet, you know that you messed up in the design proces".
This quote has extremely relevance for your example. Just as typing on a tablet needs to be simple and easy, so does harassing. If you need to bring a spellcaster in order to harass, you know that you messed up in the design phase.
Woah now, One thing at a time. I got some other ideas for Dropship before we try that. Might aswell make them medivacs at that point anyway. Comes with a nicer model too.
I have to say that medivacs makes bio a lot more fun. From a design perspective it comes with the risk of forcing the opponent to defend for the majority of the midgame, as they can't risk moving out of their base due to the fear of being doom-dropped.
So the question is; Is there a way we can make dropships be "free" (similar to how medivacs are "free"), but without implementing the fear of a big drop?
Personally, I can't think of any creative solution - The easiest step in the right direction is to reduce cost to 50/50, however in general I believe that a redeisgn of static defenses will be enough of an indirect buff to dropships (in the non doom drop way), so this probably won't be neccesary.
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- Reapers do not activate Spider mines.
That is kinda a wierd rule. I don't like it.
Hovering units in the game do not actiavte Spider mines. Neither workers, Archons or Vultures. So I don't think Reapers would be strange in that regard. After all, there is a visual indication that they "fly" over the ground. Not sure it would change too much though.
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While there seems to be some people in the thread atm, I might aswell start a parallell discussion:
Why was not mass Vessels with Irradiate a problem in BW?
Why is not mass Ravens with Hunter Seeker a problem in SC2?
Don't forget to discuss bio + static defence too!
I really wanna nail it!
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On June 21 2013 06:04 Kabel wrote:Hovering units in the game do not actiavte Spider mines. Neither workers, Archons or Vultures. So I don't think Reapers would be strange in that regard. After all, there is a visual indication that they "fly" over the ground. Not sure it would change too much though. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While there seems to be some people in the thread atm, I might aswell start a parallell discussion:
Why was not mass Vessels with Irradiate a problem in BW?
Why is not mass Ravens with Hunter Seeker a problem in SC2?Don't forget to discuss bio + static defence too! I really wanna nail it!
Seeker Missile is bad vs a lot of stuff and auto-turret has no utility (unlike nerve jammer).
Regarding zerg static defense - I still think the best type of solution would be do make it based on queens energy. Instead of spending energy on creep tumour or larva inject a hatchery, it could inject spine crawlers which would increase DPS by 100% for 25 seconds. Is it uncreative - Yes (similar to chrono boost on cannons), however at this point creativity is less of a neccesity given its importance for gameplay.
Regarding your comparison to BW. Well its the combination of nerve jammer and irradiate which makes SV's an extremely strong all round unit, and since mech scales so well there is no motivation for ever attacking untill your maxed.
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On June 21 2013 06:04 Kabel wrote:Hovering units in the game do not actiavte Spider mines. Neither workers, Archons or Vultures. So I don't think Reapers would be strange in that regard. After all, there is a visual indication that they "fly" over the ground. Not sure it would change too much though. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While there seems to be some people in the thread atm, I might aswell start a parallell discussion:
Why was not mass Vessels with Irradiate a problem in BW?
Why is not mass Ravens with Hunter Seeker a problem in SC2?Don't forget to discuss bio + static defence too! I really wanna nail it!
I guess the Reaper would be fine then.
Hunter seeker, is because of the faillure chance. If you get enough out of range they will fizzle. However some Units(Brood lords) are unable to get out of range in time keeping the treat relevant. In TvP there are concerns through that the Ravens with PDD and Hunter seeker combined with the Ultimate Bio army makes for an unbeatable compusition.
On June 21 2013 06:00 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Static defence disabling abilities: From SC2 i can mention Blinding cloud as a masterpiece. It finds itself useful against armies and even works to completely disable static defence. A planetary is no match for more sophisticated harass from Zerg. PDD works the same way for Terran through i don't see it very often... I think we could figure somthing similar out for Starbow. I think binding cloud works terrible in Sc2. UP vs everything but siege tanks which it is insanely OP against. Regarding its role as staticdefense killers, it reminds me of a quote from Steve Jobs, who said something in the lines; "When you need a pen in order to type on the tablet, you know that you messed up in the design proces". This quote has extremely relevance for your example. Just as typing on a tablet needs to be simple and easy, so does harassing. If you need to bring a spellcaster in order to harass, you know that you messed up in the design phase.
I don't want you to just use a single finger for harassment, espicially not if it is so late into the game that i actually bothered to make a turret ring.
You will have a pen, that pen will have a flashlight and for 100$ you can attach a kinnect.
or rather i want you to be mindful when you harrass. Look ahead and actually figure out a strategy for how to assault this location properly. That is why i suggested that photon cannons could be set to only be able to attack land or air. Include some weaknesses in the design.
You cannot cripple turrets for terran. We don't have Warp-in or Rift. We don't have creep and usually don't have units with a speed that can be relavent for drop response. That is why you see drops all the time in TvT. That is why terrans have the turret and why the turret have over twice the DPS of the photon cannon. It is a balance act just like the rest.
Well i got Exams tomorow. Good night.
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On June 21 2013 05:55 Kabel wrote:
@Static defence
How can we make static defence counter drop play/harassment play less efficently?
What about an active skill on prisms, overlords, and dropships that reduces damage from static defense by a certain % for x number of seconds? We could call it evasive maneuvers or something. This would allow us to reduce GtA static defense damage against drops only, but still keep static defense in the game and viable (say against muta harras). It would mean that we could balance the % of damage reduction against the cost of investment in static defense to get the right balance. Just a thought. 
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Well, I might have some opinions about all this but....
Starbow map thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418055
Mass vessels was a problem in BW btw, but plagueeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! was better vs it.Do not make reaper build time faster AND remove tech-lap requirement. Breaks early-game. Making them not activate mines seems like a good and logical idea, they are flying (low..) after all.
I would not butt my head against the wall too much to make bio super-viable in TvT. But I still stand by what I said before. It is viable, even if your opponent is not worse than you. I've been fairly successful with it and I don't play terran. Ask HideR... But you need a lot of APM to be effective with it. It is the same with zerg Vs Protoss when protoss gets a ton of carriers out. You need to out-maneuver and outplay him, but it is possible, just require a lot of APM and good decision - making.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
is there a post with complete changelogs atm since kabel? its kinda hard to understand whats going on by reading separated messages..
and - i want starbow, when you guys play it so i could join? (imma still godking, ffs :D)
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On June 21 2013 06:19 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 06:04 Kabel wrote:- Reapers do not activate Spider mines. That is kinda a wierd rule. I don't like it. Hovering units in the game do not actiavte Spider mines. Neither workers, Archons or Vultures. So I don't think Reapers would be strange in that regard. After all, there is a visual indication that they "fly" over the ground. Not sure it would change too much though. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While there seems to be some people in the thread atm, I might aswell start a parallell discussion:
Why was not mass Vessels with Irradiate a problem in BW?
Why is not mass Ravens with Hunter Seeker a problem in SC2?Don't forget to discuss bio + static defence too! I really wanna nail it! I guess the Reaper would be fine then. Hunter seeker, is because of the faillure chance. If you get enough out of range they will fizzle. However some Units(Brood lords) are unable to get out of range in time keeping the treat relevant. In TvP there are concerns through that the Ravens with PDD and Hunter seeker combined with the Ultimate Bio army makes for an unbeatable compusition. Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 06:00 Hider wrote:Static defence disabling abilities: From SC2 i can mention Blinding cloud as a masterpiece. It finds itself useful against armies and even works to completely disable static defence. A planetary is no match for more sophisticated harass from Zerg. PDD works the same way for Terran through i don't see it very often... I think we could figure somthing similar out for Starbow. I think binding cloud works terrible in Sc2. UP vs everything but siege tanks which it is insanely OP against. Regarding its role as staticdefense killers, it reminds me of a quote from Steve Jobs, who said something in the lines; "When you need a pen in order to type on the tablet, you know that you messed up in the design proces". This quote has extremely relevance for your example. Just as typing on a tablet needs to be simple and easy, so does harassing. If you need to bring a spellcaster in order to harass, you know that you messed up in the design phase. I don't want you to just use a single finger for harassment, espicially not if it is so late into the game that i actually bothered to make a turret ring. You will have a pen, that pen will have a flashlight and for 100$ you can attach a kinnect. or rather i want you to be mindful when you harrass. Look ahead and actually figure out a strategy for how to assault this location properly. That is why i suggested that photon cannons could be set to only be able to attack land or air. Include some weaknesses in the design. You cannot cripple turrets for terran. We don't have Warp-in or Rift. We don't have creep and usually don't have units with a speed that can be relavent for drop response. That is why you see drops all the time in TvT. That is why terrans have the turret and why the turret have over twice the DPS of the photon cannon. It is a balance act just like the rest. Well i got Exams tomorow. Good night.
Harass is never about being smart (starcraft isn't really rocket scicence). For instance your suggestion about cannons switching being AtA and AtG has nothing do with decision-making at all. Its purely a mechanical issue. Its almost impossible to design the game to involve real dilemmas/tough decisions that any decent player can't figure out really fast.
We have spider mines and vultures instead. Turrets are only a neccesity if the potential damage output is really high (which will occur if you implement medivacs).
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On June 21 2013 06:28 Fen1kz wrote:is there a post with complete changelogs atm since kabel? its kinda hard to understand whats going on by reading separated messages.. and - i want starbow, when you guys play it so i could join? (imma still godking, ffs :D)
See OP. (opening post, he links new important stuff to that one, also the pics are updated and more accurate.)
I'll be on tomorrow (I think...)
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Yeah, if we want few units to always be able to harass, despite a strong static defence, one way to go is to have strength/weaknesses in the static defence. So small "windows" are created more often.
Example:
PF - It goes from on/off. (It is extreme in that regard.)
Cannons - Via Chrono boosts can they go from very weak/strong. (Just tweak numbers more)
Spine crawlers - Queen is a natural part of the defence. As we have discussed before Hider, make Queen play a more important role can be good. It will probably be "similar" to Chrono boost in the regard that they need to "target" a defence structure. One way can be is to make Spine Crawlers have a short range/long range.. or just damage boost. It is a similar mechanic though..
Other ways to go?
Now of course static defence shall not be reworked beyond recognition. They shall remain somewhat similar. But if we find a way to adjust them so the gameplay become better, then I think it is worth to give it a shot. Just need a solid idea first.
It has also been discussed to make Spore Crawlers stronger vs Mutas. People claim it was a good change in HoTS since it does not lead to Muta vs Muta wars anymore. Instead other units are more viable. Maybe could something similar improve Starbow ZvZ?
@The_Overmind
Well, it is not only dropships/overlords/warp prisms that should benefit from easier harass. Other types of units too
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I like new reaper, although it no longer has the "Snapshots mines", but however these old mines can be transferred to the ghost, can make synergy with new "shock" ability.
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@Range
Might as well throw this out here too:
If Marines start with one more attack range, and have no attack range upgrade, they will become a little bit better from the start: for example better vs Stalkers, better vs Reapers, better vs Vultures, better vs Banshees, better bunker pushes.
This would make Stalkers unable to out-range bunkers though via their range upgrade.
But in return, the Stalker range upgrade can be decreased to 100/100 from 150/150.
(Still makes them better at fighting vs Marines and other units.)
In return, Marines can get the normal combat shield upgrade. (+10 life)
(Otherwise the Barrack tech lab will feel very empty)
How important is the fact that Stalkers can outrange bunkers?
How important is the Marine range upgrade? (Just that it is an upgrade)
Do they contribute to a more interesting and exciting early game?
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Be careful about removing marine range upgrade, bunkerrushes will become much stronger (see GSL finals MVP vs Squirtle)
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On June 21 2013 07:08 Kabel wrote:
@Range
Might as well throw this out here too:
If Marines start with one more attack range, and have no attack range upgrade, they will become a little bit better from the start: for example better vs Stalkers, better vs Reapers, better vs Vultures, better vs Banshees, better bunker pushes.
This would make Stalkers unable to out-range bunkers though via their range upgrade.
But in return, the Stalker range upgrade can be decreased to 100/100 from 150/150.
(Still makes them better at fighting vs Marines and other units.)
In return, Marines can get the normal combat shield upgrade. (+10 life)
(Otherwise the Barrack tech lab will feel very empty)
How important is the fact that Stalkers can outrange bunkers?
How important is the Marine range upgrade? (Just that it is an upgrade)
Do they contribute to a more interesting and exciting early game?
Range upgrade is important when fighting against a vulture player. Stimming can actually hurt you because it reduces the amount of shots to take down a marine while vultures don't care how fast marines run while stimmed.
If anything its a choice to take stim or range during tvt bio vs mech.
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No range upgrade required for 1 range makes it even easier for terran to be super-greedy (one bunker with one marine can hold off a ton of units....). I don't think it will lead to more aggression, but the opposite. But this is just theorizing...
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On June 21 2013 13:24 Xiphias wrote:
No range upgrade required for 1 range makes it even easier for terran to be super-greedy (one bunker with one marine can hold off a ton of units....). I don't think it will lead to more aggression, but the opposite. But this is just theorizing...
I agree with this. I think the 1 lower range makes early game stalker harass more viable. However, instead I think we could consider reducing the cost of the upgrade (while keeping research time the same), to make it easy to open up with bio and obtain a better economy than the opponent. What about something like just 50/50 for the range upgrade?
I like new reaper, although it no longer has the "Snapshots mines", but however these old mines can be transferred to the ghost, can make synergy with new "shock" ability.
Im not totally sure yet. I think the potential issue with the new reapers is that its a splash damage unit which can't be microed against (from the opponents POV). For all splash damage units in the game (whether its a spellcaster or a battle unit) there are micro-techniques to minimize damage. But how is the opponent supposed to react to the new reaper? To me a reaper with splash seems like its all about critical numbers. Once you get X of them, and the terran is good enough to shift click attack banelings, then every single baneling will die every single time before they ever get a decent detonation of.
Compare this to how you would play against tanks; Zerg players would benefit by sending in a small group of zerglings first to tank the initial shot and mix in banelings along the lines of zerglings to make shif-target firing with tanks quite difficult. Also, there is the possiblity ofabusing the immobility of tanks which zerg players with great multitasking are better at than players with bad multitasking.
It has also been discussed to make Spore Crawlers stronger vs Mutas. People claim it was a good change in HoTS since it does not lead to Muta vs Muta wars anymore. Instead other units are more viable. Maybe could something similar improve Starbow ZvZ?
@The_Overmind
Well, it is not only dropships/overlords/warp prisms that should benefit from easier harass. Other types of units too
We could consider reducing damage of spores and turrets and instead give them + damage vs biological units (to maintain or perhaps make them better vs mutalisks).
But that is probably not the best solution for turrets as terran in the early midgame need turrets in (before they have goliaths out) to deal with warp prism drops/banshee's. Therefore turrets should probably designed so that they were pretty strong when you just have 1 each base, but scaled poorly.
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I don't think it's necessary to nerf static defense to make harass more viable, this is merely a metagame problem. People are still figuring out how to play this game and it's easier to do so if you overdefend bases with static defense, when this all gets figured out, people will have to cut on defences or just fall behind (6 cannons at an expo can make it harassproof but in a close game you could only use 2 cannons and use the other 600 minerals for a warp prism + 4 zealots and drop them somewhere.
But if you are significantly ahead, i think it should be possible to use a lot of static defenses and be completely harassproof unless the enemy really commits hard. So terran should be able to make himself dropproof if he is willing to put a lot of resources in it.
It's all a matter of "how can i cost-efficiently stop harass at my expo's", the art lies in guessing how much your enemy will commit to harass. 2 cannons can easily smack down 1 banshee, but if the enemy decides to make 5 banshees, then you're gonna have a bad time.
Sophisticated defense requires sophisticated harass, you can't expect to easymode break those defenses. You gotta solve it like a puzzle.
Some examples of harass that i haven't seen much (because i really suck at explaining things, i'm pretty sure everyone that reads this isn't gonna understand what i'm trying to say).
nukes are excellent to clean up static defenses, turrets and cannons die to 2 nukes if i'm not mistaken.
warpprism with 2 zealots and 2 ht, zealots take the first hits from defending tanks/mines, ht's clean up the mineral line in seconds.
zealots + dt's, take out the turrets fast, there's always a big chance the enemy didn't notice your dt's right away and they're gonna be annoying as hell.
lurkers + dark swarm, annoying as fuck.
...
there are tons of options.
Most important part i think is that harass doesn't need to do damage to be effective, taxing the apm of your opponent is way more important, it's easy to send one ghost to nuke an expo, it's annoying to find it, it taxes the multitasking of your opponent. Why is it easy to win versus inferior players? Not necessarily because you're smarter, mainly because he can't keep up. Taxing your enemies attention works the same way, a great example is Innovation, he is so fucking fast. I've seen him just keep attacking on and on versus zergs and expand everywhere, he doesn't even need to get static defense at his expo's because the enemy can't keep up with multitasking and it doesn't matter if he loses his army cost-inefficiently, his macro is just so baller that he remaxes freeking fast and you can't send part of your army to harass because he will just roll over your base if you do.
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On June 21 2013 07:08 Kabel wrote:
@Range
Might as well throw this out here too:
If Marines start with one more attack range, and have no attack range upgrade, they will become a little bit better from the start: for example better vs Stalkers, better vs Reapers, better vs Vultures, better vs Banshees, better bunker pushes.
This would make Stalkers unable to out-range bunkers though via their range upgrade.
But in return, the Stalker range upgrade can be decreased to 100/100 from 150/150.
(Still makes them better at fighting vs Marines and other units.)
In return, Marines can get the normal combat shield upgrade. (+10 life)
(Otherwise the Barrack tech lab will feel very empty)
How important is the fact that Stalkers can outrange bunkers?
How important is the Marine range upgrade? (Just that it is an upgrade)
Do they contribute to a more interesting and exciting early game?
Do not run, you have to go step by step. Start with a slight decrease in the cost of the upgrade.
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Finally back home.
I will upload a small patch before 20.00 on EU.
Then I will be online.
I post the small update notes here.
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EPT
