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Russian Federation216 Posts
On July 02 2013 06:32 Kabel wrote:
@Stuff to balance
Early mass Reapers in TvT is insane.
- Increase Reactor build time to 40 seconds, from 25.
- Increase Reaper build time to 45 seconds, from 40.
sounds ok, gonna try them tvt ]:F
On July 02 2013 06:32 Kabel wrote:
Vessels
- Decrease Irradiate damage from 245 to 140 over 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds... Just enough to NOT kill a Viper, Lurker, Queen, Overlord, Guardian or Devourer... They barely survive... Needs one more shot from something to die...
- Make Nerve Jammer not destroy units AI. (I think I have found a solution.)
dont like it, we're with hider and danko think taht its better to nerf casting range of radiate instead of making it something useless.
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On July 02 2013 06:32 Kabel wrote:
Corsair
- Adjust the damage they gain from upgrades. (Currently they gain +2, should be +1)
On July 02 2013 06:32 Kabel wrote:
Stasis Field is as fun as the old WoL Fungal Growth...
- Redesign that spell.
i kinda like it, its very interesting to sit and wait what gonna happen with ur units (no sarcrasm). mb just nerf aoe and cost?
On July 02 2013 06:32 Kabel wrote:
Arbiter damage is too high.
- Nerf damage per shot from 20 to 12.
yes it was ridiculous.
> Scourge can never hit Corsairs once they reach a critical mass. Is that a problem?
actually no, since PvZ is broken, but you could add huge accelerating buff when they in range of target
> I am sick and tired of seeing only Marines + Medics. Anyone else share this feeling?
> Ghost starting spell will be pimped in some way.
and dmg!!!
> Plus 10.000 bugs.
OMG REEEAAAVERRR
> any other
accelerating zealots are even more useless than ghosts :D they're kinda stupid and deal no dmg
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On July 02 2013 06:32 Kabel wrote:
@Stuff to balance
I throw out my suggestions for balance here. Please discuss.
Early mass Reapers in TvT is insane.
- Increase Reactor build time to 40 seconds, from 25.
- Increase Reaper build time to 45 seconds, from 40.
Vessels
- Decrease Irradiate damage from 245 to 140 over 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds... Just enough to NOT kill a Viper, Lurker, Queen, Overlord, Guardian or Devourer... They barely survive... Needs one more shot from something to die...
- Make Nerve Jammer not destroy units AI. (I think I have found a solution.)
Corsair
- Adjust the damage they gain from upgrades. (Currently they gain +2, should be +1)
Stasis Field is as fun as the old WoL Fungal Growth...
- Redesign that spell.
Arbiter damage is too high.
- Nerf damage per shot from 20 to 12.
Scourge can never hit Corsairs once they reach a critical mass. Is that a problem?
Spider mine is the most frustrating thing in the game. Anyone else thinks the same?
I am sick and tired of seeing only Marines + Medics. Anyone else share this feeling?
Ghost starting spell will be pimped in some way.
Plus 10.000 bugs.
Other problems/concerns?
I did not think I'd have internet while I was gone but I DO! MUHAHAHAHA!
@ New irradiate, let's try it!
@ Spider mines. No! They are very important for the game, PLEASE! do not redesign them.
The rest, sure! (I have little knowledge about TvT....)
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@Spider Mines
Why are they invulnerable for almost twice as long as they were in BW?
Hydralisks and Dragoons shot way slower than in SC2.
If they were BW mines hydralisks and stalkers would be able to clear minefields with a-move.
Right now you can defuse them by triggering them, and a-moving backwards.
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a-moving backwards
Dunno why but this sentence makes me laugh xD.
We played and talked a bit yesterday (me, Hider and Fen ), and we came to conclusion that irradiate should be nerfed in different way. Instead of nerfing its dmg and duration make it harder to use. Give vessel 3-5 (very short) Range, nerf acceleration and allow it to cast on move.
Also, imho stick to idea of devoruer being counter to it. I think spell resistance would be cool.
I don't like so huge change to reactor, try smaller changes maybe? Like both reaper and reactor + 5 instead of +15/+5. Keep in mind that reactor change will have impact in bio tvz and tvp defence.
Yeah, nerf arbiters dmg. They are ridiculous. I also don't mind statis redesign. They shouldn't be so effective in bigger numbers without giving option to react.
If you are fixing ghost, then don't forget to fix shock. This sps crap, not only cae its bugged, but also projectile speed is 4 times to slow >. >.
Can't edit this crap on phone...
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If you are really fed up with mass marine+medic, you should look into the CnC infantry setup, especially the Red Alert 3 ones or the CnC:Generals ones.
Basically they work like this:
- Cheap MG/Rifle unit: Good vs infantry, decent vs light vehicles, weak vs tanks - sometimes with, sometimes without GtA.
E.g. Conscript (Soviet), Minigunner/Red Guard (China), Ranger (USA)...
- Medium cost Rocket unit: weak vs infantry, decent vs light vehicles, strong vs tanks - mostly with GtA, sometimes with small splash
E.g. Flak Trooper (Soviet), Tankhunter (China), RPG Trooper (GLA)...
I think that this has always been a superior setup to the Starcraft good-vs-anything-unless-it-is-aspecific-hardcounter Marine. It enforces you to always make marines, which is not necessary. It's only necessary that the production building barracks/reactored barracks has a unit on it that you want to build for your specific situation.
Basically those two units in the CnC setup can fullfill all roles damagewise - so you can counter everything by adjusting properly.
They have similar health and same armor type - so they get the same damage done to them and you can't easily "just switch composition from 1production building" to get a massive advantage.
In terms of Starbow, such a setup could look like this:
- Marine - with some small nerfs, mostly to their damage vs armored.
--> deals with zergling, zealot, hydralisk, mutalisk, vulture, medic, light/medium airforces
- Marauder (or whatever you want to call it) - a unit that does not have massive health advantages over the marine, but damage advantages (unlike the Starcraft 2 marauder which has hardly any damage output advantages at all).
--> deals with stalker, reaver, siege tank, goliath, ultralisk, lurker, medium/armored airforces
Also I'll always be voting for standard attacks on units to be interesting, so I'm for effects like small splash, projectile-hits-first-target-in-its-way, delayed shot (like widow mine), pierce.
Stuff like that introduces micro - while not making the unit a clickspammer (like snipe) - and makes a difference between a guy controlling his units and one not looking/simply amoving.
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@Marauder
Ofc the Marauder is not needed. Many of the units in Starbow are not needed to create a balanced and quite fun game.
But I would argue we see a similar dilemma with Marines, as we saw with mass Stalkers earlier: there is only 1 Bio unit that is viable against everything. No diversity. (And in TvT it is almost not viable vs anything...) Is that really fun for the game?
I think it would be more interesting if there is another core Bio unit that actually does something in the game.
- More build orders
- More diversity
- More unit compositions
- More depth in bio than just Marines + Medics.
What would happen to the gameplay diversity if we added the Marauder?
Not the SC2 Marauder stats!
Something that fits into the Starbow context.
- Terran would get an early unit who can fight vs enemy Reapers + Vultures. (Who just now shreds Marines.)
- Terran early bio pushes would actually be able to do something against Terran.
- Bio drops would be stronger, especially in TvT and TvP, which would help to promote the bio play style.
- With a slight rebalance, Bio in TvZ would not just be pure Marines + Medics, which atm is good vs almost all Zerg units. Marauders might become useful in that match-up, maybe vs Banelings, snipe lonely Lurkers, decent vs Ultras. (Ofc Marauders shall not be able to A-move through a Lurker field..)
Still Protoss, Terran and Zerg can counter bio in the same way as before: Siege tanks, Spider mines, Storm, Reavers, Banelings, Lurkers, Plague, Dark Swarm, Ultralisks etc. Which is good. This forces Terran to NOT just pump Bio all game long. As it should be. BUT it makes Bio a bit more viable in the early and mid game in TvT and TvP.
Mass Stalkers would not be as strong vs Bio anymore. Rather would we maybe see more mixes of Stalkers + Zealots, maybe Sentinels, which just leads to even more dynamic gameplay.
Ofc Ghosts still need to be improved.
Maybe Reapers combat utility too, to some degree.
The point is: shall we balance the game on a mediocre line-up of Barrack units?
Or shall we add another piece to Starbow, after all, so we can balance the game around more interesting content?
And this comes from a hardcore BW fan who has spent my entire grown up life on a crusade against the Marauder...
But after seeing the games of the last couple of days, I´ve more and more started to feel the need of another bio unit.
(Even though I was convinced that Marines was enough "in theory".)
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Yeah yeah enough about that now. This is ofc not the most important issue in Starbow atm.
I have a new patch coming this evening. I will post my suggested changes before I upload the patch, so we can evaluate it together. The Sentinel will get a complete starting spell.
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On July 02 2013 10:24 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 09:49 Hider wrote:I am sick and tired of seeing only Marines + Medics. Anyone else share this feeling? If maurauder isn't implemented, then I would consider this change; - Damage changed from 6 vs everything to 5 vs light, 5 vs air, 6 vs normal armor and 7 vs armored. This change will induce the following gameplay; 1) Reward terran players who mixes in reapers in their bio composiiton vs zealot, lings. 2) Rewards terrans who mixes in vikings vs mutalisks rather than relying on Marine medi SV which IMO just hard counters muta play. 3) Reward protoss players that uses zealots as meatshield vs bio, instead of relying on pure mass stalkers. 4) Slight buff to bio vs mech. Turret suggestion;What about making this AOE based as a standard attack and reduce its damage to single targets (no activating required. this will be its default attack). This will have the following effect; - Make smalldrop play stronger - Make it more effective against big mutaplays or at least force the zerg player to microsplit his mutalisks when engaging turrets. - Something like 6-8 mutalisks which at the moment feels completly useless vs terran will suddenly be very useful vs terran, as long as the zerg player is capable of micro'ing them well. - Stronger against big dropplays/doomdrops. Potential unintended consequence: An AOE turret will be very good vs carriers interceptors. And that is exactly why i want to implement the marauder or something like it. Because we are trying to make the marine fill way too many roles, and fit into too many conditions. Turret suggestion.... WTF Hider?? Asside from the effects you mentioned it will also significantly boost the effect of the Turret clusters that Mech player likes to place when they move. Effectively making those clusters complete no-fly zones with something that doesn't cost food... For one that always complain about Static defence this is a very strange suggestion.
I don't understand at all how you come to that conclusion. I always wanted to redeisgn static defenses because they nullify small army play and reward deathball play. My suggestion (if it works as inteded) will clearly reward the opposite kind of play.
I never stated I had anything against static defense provindg a defenders advantage as it allows players to split their armies. So if turrets can provide a stronger defense vs mass air, than isn't something I am necesarily against. Nevertheless I am worried about how it would affect carriers. But besides that I feel this change is a simple, but a quite effective one.
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throwing out opinions:
-reactor change also affects other matchups, so I am unsure about this.
-irridiate would rathet see a slight range nerf to see how it works out against scourges
-about time with the nerf jammers
-stasis doesnt need to be changed yet but totally agree onnarbiter dmg output change.
- I still think you shouldnt implement marauders. perhaps take a look at ghosts or modify the role of the reaper to see if you can fix some of the problems
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On July 02 2013 19:49 404AlphaSquad wrote:
throwing out opinions:
-reactor change also affects other matchups, so I am unsure about this.
-irridiate would rathet see a slight range nerf to see how it works out against scourges
-about time with the nerf jammers
-stasis doesnt need to be changed yet but totally agree onnarbiter dmg output change.
- I still think you shouldnt implement marauders. perhaps take a look at ghosts or modify the role of the reaper to see if you can fix some of the problems
Nice to see you on the forum 
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usually I just hide in the shadows and lurk on tl. 
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@Regarding balance
Nerve Jammer will not mess up AI as hard. No other changes needed atm?
Irradiate damage does NOT stack. Earlier, if you casted two Irradiate on two Lurkers next to each other, they would get twice the amount of damage per second. Maybe reduce cast range? Would that actually help?
Is this really enough? Will this really solve the core problem of Irradiate?
Arbiter damage reduced from 20 to 12.
I am looking at the Spider mine atm. One of the problems is that units do not attack them if there are other enemy units nearby.
Viper starts with Ensnare + Breed.
Abduct + Consume requires upgrades. Costs 100/100 each.
Sentinel has a better starting spell.
Shock on Ghost has been pimped.
Stasis Field is not reworked atm.
Reaper and Reactor... Not sure what to do with them, after all. Reapers seems to hit the game at a good timing. I am afraid to delay their build time. Maybe a Reactor build time increase is enough? That would stop mass Reapers from dominating early as easily. Thoughts?
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Irradiate didn't splash if on a burrowed unit in BW if I'm not mistaken correct?
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Let irradiate stack. Reduce Range to something like 4 instead. Keep it OP just make harder to use. Also, I would love to see bw style double vessel cleaning mineral line.
Im not sure about splashing to burrowed but for sure It didn't splash FROM burrowed unit.
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Hmm, really?
If we add a similar thing here, anyway to prevent the splash from happening to other units, if Irradiate is on a burrowed unit?
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Early game tvz problem
So played a zvt with fen yesterday on Starbow Haven, and Fen did some kind of 8 minute timing attack/pressure going pure bio.While it should have done significant damage as i had just droned up quite heavily before he attacked, it was really easy to deal with by going pure blings. aftewards, he had problems securing a 3rd as i could basically just stay on equal worker count after that failed attack, and pump out units constantly to deny his 3rd from mining, and take advantage of a better saturation to gain an economic advantage.
So obviously terran can't do that type of attack, at least not on that map, but probably no in general either. But the question is, what pressure options does a terran bio player have?
In sc2 you can do reaper into reactor hellion. While reaper opening indeed is viable, reactor vulture isn't particularly strong as they need upgrade to be efficient, and if you get the speed upgrade, chances are, you aren't going bio.
What about banshee? Well the problems with going banshee on 2 bases are;
1) It doesn't really do a particularly good job of securing a 3rd against mass lings.
2) The zerg player can spot with ovies when the banshee move out, and have time to react by setting up spores in the base, and open mutalisks. The window for the terran player to do damage is quite small, and due to the 4 range of the banshee, it really shouldn't do any type of damage unless the zerg player mess's up completely.
I think something like 1/1/1 on 2 bases with a vulture + dropship opening can be decent for variation purposes, but if you lose your vultures, you have the same problem as you have with banshee's, that you don't really have the unit count to secure a 3rd, and you also put your self in a very vulnerable position against a muta opening.
What you should do as terran early game when going bio
So basically my theory is that terran shouldn't attack/pressure/harass at all early game tvz (besides reaper harass, though that becomes useless when speedlings are out), at least not when going bio. Instead, take a quick 3rd, defend defend. Get bio + SV, and do maybe a 15-20 minute pre hive timing.
But how exciting is that exactly? Not particularly IMO, and I believe we can make one easy change to induce more early game action;
Solution
Let vultures start with the speed upgrade - No research upgrade should be needed.
If this makes vulture opennings too strong vs lings, we could consider reducing the movement speed slightly from 5 to 4.75 or 4.5. Nevertheless, I believe that this change will add so much more early game action to the game and make many new build orders viable.
Kabel previously told me that he didn't like removing upgrades as he felt that they gave a choice. While that is true for the most part, I believe some upgrades are counterproductive. For instance if vulture openings are only viable when you go mech, then there isn't really any real decision involved.
Instead, the removal of the vulture upgrade will reward terran players for putting early game pressure on the zerg player with vultures, and we will see a whole new group of variations, like vulture/marine, vulture/reaper, vulture/banshee, vulture/dropship, reactor vulture, etc.
Further, I also belive we should increase the range of banshees from 4 to 6. I think a 4 range banshee is way too gimmicky, and gets completely shutdown in the mid-late game where the opponent has static defenses up, and in the early game it is easily scoutable (by observers, overlords), and should hence be denied quite effectively by a good opponent.
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Viper starts with Ensnare + Breed.
Abduct + Consume requires upgrades. Costs 100/100 each.
Could you spend a bit of time in the unit tester with breed. I tried to look at breed in scenarios where I thought it could be useful, and I ended up concluding that it was extremely underpowered given the high cost of the viper. Simply going pure blings is way easier and much more cost efficiently from my experiences.
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Let irradiate stack. Reduce Range to something like 4 instead. Keep it OP just make harder to use. Also, I would love to see bw style double vessel cleaning mineral line.
How would this make the Vessel good at punishing clumped up units?
For example, if Hydras move tightly clumped up, it will be very hard for the Vessel to cast the spell on them without dying.
Or on clumped up Mutas.
With stacked damage, we favor EVEN MORE Vessels clumped up. Just cast 4-5 Irradiates on a group of units and it will die in seconds. With NOT stacked damage, Mass Vessels will not be as insanely strong. At least not when used in the same army.
@Vulture upgrade
Generally I like to have many upgrades in the game. (As long as they serve a purpose.) It gives a broader tech tree, more variations in build orders and so on.
BUT if there are clear advantages with removing an upgrade, and instead let a unit start with it, then I can ofc consider it.
But is early Vulture pressure impossible vs Zerg with the current speed?
Maybe it depends on the builds, the unit control, or other factors?
(Puccini for example had really strong Vulture pressure into Bio vs Zerg, if I remember correctly.)
@Breed
I am afraid to break the ability. Since Vipers now start with the spell, it might be more useful? I mean, drop 3-4 eggs in the enemy base and attack the workers. Even if it does not kill many workers, it delays mining etc. And the eggs just cost energy.
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On July 02 2013 20:46 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +Let irradiate stack. Reduce Range to something like 4 instead. Keep it OP just make harder to use. Also, I would love to see bw style double vessel cleaning mineral line. How would this make the Vessel good at punishing clumped up units? For example, if Hydras move tightly clumped up, it will be very hard for the Vessel to cast the spell on them without dying. Or on clumped up Mutas. With stacked damage, we favor EVEN MORE Vessels clumped up. Just cast 4-5 Irradiates on a group of units and it will die in seconds. With NOT stacked damage, Mass Vessels will not be as insanely strong. At least not when used in the same army. @Vulture upgrade Generally I like to have many upgrades in the game. (As long as they serve a purpose.) It gives a broader tech tree, more variations in build orders and so on.BUT if there are clear advantages with removing an upgrade, and instead let a unit start with it, then I can ofc consider it. But is early Vulture pressure impossible vs Zerg with the current speed? Maybe it depends on the builds, the unit control, or other factors? (Puccini for example had really strong Vulture pressure into Bio vs Zerg, if I remember correctly.)
In my updated post, I covered that specifically, because I thinks this upgrade is counterproductive in terms of adding build order variations to the game.
Puccini playing against inferior zerg players isn't a good example of what is viable I think.
Also I would like to add, that there at the moment doesn't really seem to be a lot of control involved in vultures (without speed) vs lings? Its basically a move vs kiting, and the player with the higher unit count wins.
With a slightly higher movement speed (4.75 instead of 4.25), the zerg player would be more rewarded for flanking. Rather than just attack-moving.
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Puccini playing against inferior zerg players isn't IMO a good example.
Maybe not. But a game of you playing vs Fen is not a good example either?
Don´t get me wrong, I am willing to do changes. But are we certain there is no good way for Terran bio to apply pressure vs Zerg? Can you be 100% certain in that conclusion? Are you sure Reapers with splash upgrade are not viable? Are there no other things Terran can do?
@Banshee range
Yeah maybe it can need a boost since it is currently very short. I fear it might be very strong in TvT though, since Marines only have range 4 too.
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Since when irradiate is supposed to counter hydras? You already all you can get from irradiating hydr.as is 1 dead hydra. With stats like this vessel can only be deathball unit. Wtth faster, more agile vessel it will require more attention from both sides.
Also, shorter Range (casting on move) will do exactly opposite to massing vessels. It will be much harder with more of them to control then well.
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EPT
