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On July 02 2013 20:57 Kabel wrote:Maybe not. But a game of you playing vs Fen is not a good example either? Don´t get me wrong, I am willing to do changes. But are we certain there is no good way for Terran bio to apply pressure vs Zerg? Can you be 100% certain in that conclusion? Are you sure Reapers with splash upgrade are not viable? Are there no other things Terran can do?
@Banshee rangeYeah maybe it can need a boost since it is currently very short. I fear it might be very strong in TvT though, since Marines only have range 4 too.
No, but the game got me reflecting a bit further upon his actual options in the game.
The thing is, after the zerg eco buff and larger maps, it has become a lot easier for the zerg to defend against commited pressure. Terran need some new way of doing non-commited pressure IMO.
Of course we can never be 100% certain of anything, everything is based on probabilities.
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Since when irradiate is supposed to counter hydras? You already all you can get from irradiating hydr.as is 1 dead hydra. With stats like this vessel can only be deathball unit. Wtth faster, more agile vessel it will require more attention from both sides.
Also, shorter Range (casting on move) will do exactly opposite to massing vessels. It will be much harder with more of them to control then well.
Not counter Hydras.
But with casting range 4 on Vessels, and Hydras have attack range 5, we might have a scenario where Vessels can not cast Irradiate on them without dying. Especially not on deathballs with Hydras. Or on Mutas deathballs who have attack range 3. Do we not want the spell to be viable vs those targets as well?
Unless we buff the movement speed ofc. It is currently 2.5 for Vessels. Slow acceleration. If it becomes faster, then it might work with a short range. Suggestions?
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No, but the game got me reflecting a bit further upon his actual options in the game.
The thing is, after the zerg eco buff and larger maps, it has become a lot easier for the zerg to defend against commited pressure. Terran need some new way of doing non-commited pressure IMO.
Of course we can never be 100% certain of anything, everything is based on probabilities.
Yeah, true. We can look at the races options/possibilities and see what they have potential to do, within the current context of the game. But we can not explore everything in detail. Via new patches, we can manipulate aspects of the game to enhance "fun" gameplay. For example give more tools for early aggression, which tends to be more fun to both play and watch, and so on.
So faster Vultures from start might open up for more build order options, more diversity, more early aggression, and other positive words. If we look at it in theory. But it could turn out to have unintended consequenses in game, if we do not get the balance right. (Obviously.)
It will not come in this patch today, but as many other suggestions, I keep it in my list in a file on the desktop.
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On July 02 2013 21:15 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +No, but the game got me reflecting a bit further upon his actual options in the game.
The thing is, after the zerg eco buff and larger maps, it has become a lot easier for the zerg to defend against commited pressure. Terran need some new way of doing non-commited pressure IMO.
Of course we can never be 100% certain of anything, everything is based on probabilities. Yeah, true. We can look at the races options/possibilities and see what they have potential to do, within the current context of the game. But we can not explore everything in detail. Via new patches, we can manipulate aspects of the game to enhance "fun" gameplay. For example give more tools for early aggression, which tends to be more fun to both play and watch, and so on. So faster Vultures from start might open up for more build order options, more diversity, more early aggression, and other positive words. If we look at it in theory. But it could turn out to have unintended consequenses in game, if we do not get the balance right. (Obviously.) It will not come in this patch today, but as many other suggestions, I keep it in my list in a file on the desktop.
Anyway, after playing around with it in the unit tester, it's possilbe I am wrong. I guess you can make a fairly decent reactor vulture opening while still having enough units overall to be safe vs mutaslisks, hydras, and deal with heavy ling production efficiently.
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Patch will be uploaded ca 20.00 CET.
No crazy stuff. Only balance and bug changes.
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what balance changes exactly if I may ask?
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@ Reaper, here is what I would do;
- Reduce damage from 3 + 2 vs light to 3 +1 vs light.
- Increase build time by 5 seconds.
- Decrease marine build time by 2-3 seconds.
- Increase HP from 50 to 60 (Hots stats)
These changes would (along with reactor bt increase) fix tvt. Now let's look at what we can do to give it more utility post 6 minute mark.
My reaper upgrade suggestion:
- The reaper upgrades adds + 2 damage against everything.
- The reaper after upgrade has the hellion straight line attack.
- Factory requirement, 150 second build time and 100/100 cost.
What it would accomplish
- Rewards micro for both players. I imagine many interesting reaper vs hydra battles where the reaper will try to position his reapers to abuse the straight line attack the most, and the zerg player will expect this and reposition his units in anticipation.
- Increased synergy between reaper and vultures, which will make those type of openings better and more entertaining to watch.
- The reaper would too some extent be a mobile tank, but obviously it would still scale much worse than tanks, so eventually terran players will have to transition out of reapers.
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@Johnnys idea regarding Blink
+ Show Spoiler +Ideas
Unfortunately, to apply this idea, we must take a step back, but I am very confident in this:
Zealot (80 shield, 80 hp = 160) with upgrade, is as before: when activated, increased movement speed for 5 or 8 sec, reusable after a cooldown.
When this ability is activated, zealot shield are restored. Userfull for make as tank, or escape...
Stalker (70 shield, 70 hp = 140). When blink is used, restored stalker shield. Userfull for attack or escape.
If is necessary, reduced range of blink from 8 to 6.
I wanted to increase shields spontaneously, to increase the effectiveness of the shield (in order to justify their high cost).
Now an army a-click move, it will be less effective than an armed microed.
Upgrades are now more important for mid-late game, without worrying of early game that remains almost unchanged.
If is too strong, make shield are partially regenerated by blink and charge (from 100% to 50%)
I think this is a pleasure to play and to watch... sometimes it takes imagination.
Thoughts?
Gl hf
Well, I am not sure this would solve the current "problems" in the game. Some argue that Blink Stalkers are still very strong and can command the game alone. Makes it very hard for example Terran to push out. This would make Blink even stronger.
@Alpha
what balance changes exactly if I may ask?
I post them within 2 hours. Just need to fix some more things first.
@Reaper
I will take it in small steps. Reactor build time increased from 25 to 40. (50 in SC2)
Won´t this be enough?
1-2 Reapers are not a problem. It´s when they are massable they become annoying. (Which is very easy now due to quick Reactors.)
Even though the line-attack-type would be fun, I can not implement it. It would look ridiculously if Reapers shoots the Hellion flame attack from their belly...
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@Reaper
I will take it in small steps. Reactor build time increased from 25 to 40. (50 in SC2)
Won´t this be enough?
1-2 Reapers are not a problem. It´s when they are massable they become annoying. (Which is very easy now due to quick Reactors.)
Even though the line-attack-type would be fun, I can not implement it. It would look ridiculously if Reapers shoots the Hellion flame attack from their belly...
Yeh your probably right. I just tried to think of ways which reapers and vultures could synergize and reward micro for both players.
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@Patch
I am uploading the patch now
Changes:
- Nerve Jammer does not mess with AI. (Hopefully it will be better!)
- Reavers and Archons can move between two Pylons now 
- Arbiter dmg 12 instead of 20.
- Corsair damage 6 instead of 7. (It was intended to be 6)
- Reactor build time 40 sec instead of 25.
- Irradiate does not stack damage. So 4 Irradiated units near each other will not die faster.. (No other change to it atm.)
- Breed is now a starting spell for the Viper. Abduct requires research.
- Zealots acceleration fixed. (December sent me a solution!)
- Spider mines are now auto-attacked by the enemy. (Earlier they were ignored. This is not perfect yet, but hopefully a bit better.)
Shock is pimped.
Sentinel has a new starting spell.
I will not tell you how, cause if I do, no one will ever build it. Instead you must try it in game ^^
Some bug fixes.
I think this was everything.
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On July 03 2013 01:08 Kabel wrote:
@Reaper
I will take it in small steps. Reactor build time increased from 25 to 40. (50 in SC2)
Won´t this be enough?
1-2 Reapers are not a problem. It´s when they are massable they become annoying. (Which is very easy now due to quick Reactors.)
Even though the line-attack-type would be fun, I can not implement it. It would look ridiculously if Reapers shoots the Hellion flame attack from their belly...
makes me think of the upgrade for banshees in wol campaign, maybe you could use that?
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How is that upgrade?
Ps. All maps are updated now.
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Unit test map "Starbow Tester" Updated!
@Blinkers
If they feel too strong, try decreasing the maximum distance which is currently 8
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On July 03 2013 03:16 Kabel wrote:
How is that upgrade?
Ps. All maps are updated now.
Hah. I remember that upgrade.
Banshee throwing bombs that skip like rocks on the water.
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@ Vulture
One of the reasons I fell in love with Starbow was the vulture. This was a unit where you could increase your defenders advantage by setting up mines in a strategical way and follow up by harassing. Unlike the hellion in sc2, the vulture could also put up a decent fight against stalkers and tanks as it wasn't so heavily specialised against light units as the hellion for instance. However, that feels completely changed now. Right now, they seem to just have one mission: Set up mines, and if you can, go into the oppoenents base and shift click workers.
The problem I have with this is that it leaves out a lot of unit vs unit interactions in favour of just suiciding them for harass purposes. I think it would be ideal if we could see some types of 10 vultures vs 4 stalkers interactions. While I don't wanna suggest to buff its damage vs non-light units, I would like to see mines being a new battle micro element. Right now, it doesn't feel like setting up mines during battles are efficient, however if the set up damage was reduced a bit, it would reward the opponent for either target firing the mines or simply pulling his units out of range.
I think this will create a much more interesting game, that revolves less on hard counters.
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Is really setting up mines while battling stalkers not rewarding if protoss does not micro? I have a different experience. Or maybe this is a result of recent mine change?
But yeah, this should be in the game if it's not. Placing mines while battling stalkers is a great part of the game.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
it is not rewarding, and also with mines i must say that just a-moving minefield works better than microing them, is it working as intended?
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@Vultures and Spider mines
I have not changed their stats in a long time. Neither Spider mines.
I only implemented a change yesterday that makes enemy units ALSO attack Spider mines when enemy units are nearby.
The solution is not optimal though. Maybe that has contributed?
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They were previously less priority than regular units.
This made target firing the mines down or simply retreating away from the mines important for stalker, and also made laying down mines next to stalkers a valid tactic.
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@My beef with Spider mines
The Spider mine is a fun and nice units for many reasons. But there are also some negative things with it, at least in the current way it exists.
What I consider problematic:
1. The frustration!
New players sometimes tell me Spider mines are very annoying to play against. I feel the same way. I am generally a calm person, but when my army dies to Spider mines, I become frustrated and feel an urge to rage quit!!!1!!1!1
I think this frustration emerges in two ways from the Spider mine. These are the feelings I get when a Spider mine unburrows:
- A feeling of "your-ass-is-gonna-get-whipped" within two seconds.
- A feeling of no control.
Look at this picture:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/23K6em4.jpg)
My Hydras attack the Tanks.
The Spider mines unburrow.
Now I know my entire army will die in less then 2 seconds.
And I can not do anything about it.
"But hey Kabel, just bring detection to the combat and THEN attack!"
Yes, but this leads to the next problem:
2. Spider mines can be attacked.
Or rather, the ATTACK of the Spider mine can be attacked.
Imagine if the missile of Widow mines could be attacked.
Your army would not get hurt.
These are the two options I have tried in the past:
- IF Spider mines can be attacked when they move towards your army, it will promote deathball play! A clumped up blob of ranged units will not take damage from Spider mines, because the mines will be shot before they come close to your units!
However, a small group of units will not be able to kill the Spider mines in time, before they detonate.
- IF Spider mines can NOT be attacked when they move towards your army, it leads to the frustration above.
It also seems to mess with the AI of your units: If you attack into a mine field and you shoot at the Spider mines, as soon as an enemy Siege tank attacks your army, they will instead start to attack the Siege tank and just walk into the mine field. (Even if you have detection!)
Solutions:
I think this can be modified so it works better. I have a potential solution I would like to explain here. But I notice December is still awake, so I wanna show him the first part of this post so he can read it before he falls asleep! (He is the Spider mine master and can surely invent something good to fix this!)
Ps. Spider mines are suppose to be useful in many situations: both large and smaller combats. For example make Vultures cast them on Stalkers etc.
Edit:
Okok, maybe this can be a solution?
- Burrowed Spider mines have the same attack priority as normal units.
- Spider mines who are just planted must be target fired. (During the few seconds it takes to burrow.)
- Spider mines who unburrows must be target fired.
What would this do?
If you attack into an enemy Mine field + Tanks, your ranged units will attack the mines AND the enemy units, IF you have detection! (NOT ignore the mines!)
If you move close enough to the Mines, they will unburrow and kill your stuff. (Just as a Widow mine would kill your stuff if go too close to it.)
If Vultures plant Spider mines on top of enemy Stalkers, the Stalkers must target fire the mines or back away. Once the Mines are burrowed, and Protoss has detection, the Stalkers will auto-attack the mines.
If we want enemy units to be able to micro vs a low number of Spider mines even WITHOUT detection, then we can let Spider mines unburrow and stand still for 1-2 seconds. During this duration, the enemy player can target fire them. (NOT Auto-attack, since that would just make the mines useless.)
The easier and maybe more boring solution would be if Spider mines just blew up instantly as soon as a unit came close to it.
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EPT
