EPT[A] Starbow - Page 112
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 15 2012 05:56 ArkussSC2 wrote: Remove Oakshire and Breaking Point from the map pool please. Horrible maps.Add in some macro maps in their place. Eh, me and Freeze also feel this way about Oak and Breaking. We've been pretty much only been playing Sacred Sands and Match Point. | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
On October 15 2012 06:33 decemberscalm wrote: Eh, me and Freeze also feel this way about Oak and Breaking. We've been pretty much only been playing Sacred Sands and Match Point. I personally think they're all fine maps at this stage, nothing has a Steppes of War-esque rush distance. If it's not a problem for me, playing greedy Zerg and various other plays that seize map presence, then it really shouldn't be a problem for anyone else. Unless it's a personal problem... I would like to see more maps, though. --- With regards to PvZ, I've found a lot of success with 2 gate zealots into Void Ray play, then quick charge afterwards. The build time of the upgrade isn't a problem if you pin back your opponent. Not sure if these buffs were needed, as most 'balance' issues at this stage are being resolved by people playing better/differently (or not, in some cases  ) | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
"Starbow modders, the only people in the TL community with the balls to do something other than whining about how much smarter they are than Blizzard" -S2076 Bhahahaha. <3 you S2076 | ||
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Doubting
Canada981 Posts
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
On October 15 2012 05:56 ArkussSC2 wrote: Remove Oakshire and Breaking Point from the map pool please. Horrible maps.Add in some macro maps in their place. Oakshire I feel should just be changes. Match Point/ Breaking Point are terrible maps. Please remove <3 Oakshire is just bleh, hard to expo and you run out of minerals so fast that there aren't enough bases of the map. Same for Breaking Point/Match Point. | ||
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lefix
Germany1082 Posts
bw nostalgia aside, this is just a rather poorly made map. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On October 15 2012 00:52 Laertes wrote: Ya, I'm for a damage reduc across the board actually. EDIT: Please don't remove banelings  It's probably the economy Kabel, 1k vs 1.5k, where's roblin, let's math this shit. oh my god the discussion have sped up a ton! will reply later, its the middle of the night in EU and the only reason im still awake is a minor case of insomnia. and approx 100g of delicious brie cheese that I shouldn't have eaten at 1 am. p.s. after reading kabels post the first thing that stuck out to me was that zerg battle ends too quickly, which I believe is mainly directed at zerglings, as they are high dps, low health units. hydralisks are fairly high dps, but they have a lot more survivabilitycompared to zerglings, particularly since they are ranged. banelings are a problem however. perhaps make banelings apply a stacking, powerful DoT? that would also discourage A-moving with them since they would overkill extreme amounts. but I think that was tried at some point (but failed) and reverted back to the instant damage after a while. and that is the main chunk of zerg units. so that makes me think that zerglings are the real problem. what if we nerfed the dps and buffed the health? how would that affect interaction with other units? would it encourage, discourage or not affect microability? these are some points I would like to cover in actual analysis, we will see what I end up with. for now, off to bed! // Roblin | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
-smart pathing -clumping -control groups -actual game speed is faster | ||
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
Suggestion to slow down uber zerg economy play: Increase Hatchery to 350 minerals instead of 300. Slows down the initial hatch first and the third hatch, making protoss and terran have more presence in the early game. Mid/late this won't have much of an effect so we don't need to worry about Zerg struggling all game. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On October 15 2012 10:34 Roblin wrote: oh my god the discussion have sped up a ton! will reply later, its the middle of the night in EU and the only reason im still awake is a minor case of insomnia. and approx 100g of delicious brie cheese that I shouldn't have eaten at 1 am. p.s. after reading kabels post the first thing that stuck out to me was that zerg battle ends too quickly, which I believe is mainly directed at zerglings, as they are high dps, low health units. hydralisks are fairly high dps, but they have a lot more survivabilitycompared to zerglings, particularly since they are ranged. banelings are a problem however. perhaps make banelings apply a stacking, powerful DoT? that would also discourage A-moving with them since they would overkill extreme amounts. but I think that was tried at some point (but failed) and reverted back to the instant damage after a while. and that is the main chunk of zerg units. so that makes me think that zerglings are the real problem. what if we nerfed the dps and buffed the health? how would that affect interaction with other units? would it encourage, discourage or not affect microability? these are some points I would like to cover in actual analysis, we will see what I end up with. for now, off to bed! // Roblin upon closer inspection of the rest of the thread I have decided not to make any lenghty analysis as I deem it not to be an economy problem, what do you mean with 1k vs 1.5k? but I would like to note that zergling speed was lower in broodwar than it is in SC2 and starbow, and the attack speed was significantly higher. facts about movement speed: slowlings move at equal speed to slowbanes (SC2) speedlings move much faster than speedbanes and ultras (SC2) speedbanes move at equal speed to ultras (SC2) speedlings move at equal speed to speedultras (BW) so decreasing the upgraded zergling speed to match speedbanes and ultras might be an idea? also, I think it is important to note that in broodwar zerglings beat marines 1v1 if there is no micro and they begin a distance from each other (aka zergling needs traveltime) which means zergling dps is crazy high. so im thinking decrease upgraded speed, increase dps of zerglings. might backfire hard though. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I recently uploaded two new maps on EU to try how they feel. Astro Haze: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371331 Hunting Ground: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=373502 They are both fine maps, but they are designed for the SC2 play. In fact, all maps in the Starbow map pool are built for SC2: expansions are very close to each other and the choke points are wide. Hence, you can defend many bases with your deathball and you can destroy many enemy bases by attacking with your deathball. (Since the main, second and thid bases are so close) The map that I think leads to best and most interesting games on EU is Match Point. It has the design I think Starbow needs: Bases are far apart, its a rather large map, the choke points are kinda narrow so you can indeed use your area control units. Often we see more smaller skrimishes at multiple fronts, rather than just blob vs blob. You can´t defend all your bases by having all units in a blob. I will send updated versions of the maps to NA soon. We need map makers to create maps with Starbow in mind: bases further seperated from each other, smaller choke points out on the battlefield and more areas for flanking. I don´t mind replacing the current map pool with new maps, for variation. Some of the maps have been around for months. But I need something to replace it with! Would anyone here have the time and interest to design and make a map for Starbow? Anyone? Anyone..? Anyone......... . . . . . .? | ||
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Alex1Sun
494 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Starcraft is indeed a fast paced RTS. Small misstakes can cause severe trouble for players. That is a good thing and something I want to keep. But another important factor for Starcraft is total player control. The game is an extension of the players will and control. That's what makes it so enjoyable to watch two pro-gamers fight: their skills, decisions and bold moves determines the outcome of the game. There must be room for player interaction in as many areas of the game as possible. You must be able to control or react to what is happening! I think there are areas that SC2 and Starbow lacks in this. Example of combat between core units ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LsZKW.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/90btp.jpg) You can´t tell the outcome of those combats. The players control determines who will deal most damage to the enemy and eventually win the fight! Blink, Stimpack and micro determines a lot. Its exiting to play and its exiting to watch these two smaller combats. Now lets look at these two pictures instead: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SOopo.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jZDjx.jpg) If the Zerglings have speed upgrade, neither P or T have the option to flee from this combat, no matter how good the players are. There is a limited amount of micro involved in a straight up fight like this. Protoss can Blink, Terran can use Stimpack and prey.. The Zerglings either win or lose, and there is little the players can do to effect it. Its especially boring for observers, since I think many of us can look at the picture now and see if the Zerglings will win or not. (If we know the upgrades, which we do when we obs a game) The only thing Protoss or Terran can do is to make sure to not get in this position. Hence, to move out at the map at all is a risky thing since P and T puts their army in danger. (Especially dangerous for Terran, since they have no lifeline like Nexus Recall.) This forces more turtle play and maybe even more deathball play vs Z! So, what am I saying? - There is a low level of interactions in combats involving Zerglings. - Zerg can easily outproduce an approaching enemy army and the Zerg units themselves will take care of the enemy, often with only a small amount of micro from Zerg. The enemy do not have the option to flee. Is everything pitch black vs Z? Look at those pictures: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DApY9.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KGcBf.jpg) Here we have exitment! Even though those combats can be over quickly, the micro determines the outcome. There is room for micro since its human possible to react in this fight! My defintion of micro: The method players can use to minimize casualities and maximize damage in combat via use of their units. I want it to be as present as possible in every fight, since that is what makes Starcraft so dynamic and breathtaking! And the moral of my post is that Zerglings offers very little room for interactions. (But you know that by now) There are obviously some ways this problem can be approached. - P and T can get more ways to handle Zerglings, thus Zerg must be more careful how they use their Zerglings. - Zerglings can be changed. I will return shortly. Ps. Examples of breath taking micro: Again this is possible because the pace of the game allows them to do this. Imagine if the game was played twice as fast? Not even the best players would be able to create such dynamic combats. | ||
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
On my phone sorry for horrible typing and grammar | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
On October 15 2012 04:42 Kabel wrote: New patch on EU. (Its on its way to NA) - Infestors that use Neural Parasite becomes "Benign." That means that the enemy will not auto-attack them. They must focus fire the Infestor. This will make the Infestor a little bit more protected when it uses Neural Parasite. - Recall teleports unit at 2 seconds instead of 3. (The time they must stand and wait before they are actually recalled..) - Vikings benefit from air upgrades. (For some reasons they did not get any damage or armor bonus.) - Reavers benefit from Plasma Shield upgrade. - Corsairs BT lowered from 35 to 32 seconds. Stargate BT lowered from 60 to 55 seconds. (This is a way to enable faster scouting for P vs Z.) - Duality Charge upgrade for Stalkers cost lowered to 150/150 but still has BT 140. - Speed upgrade for Zealots BT 110 instead of 140. Same cost as before. (200/200) - Photon Cannons have been buffed to have the same DPS as SC2 cannons. - Rift for Arbiters cost 25 energy instead of 50. It has no cooldown so you can teleport quite a lot of units! These are no drastic changes. Overall Zerg was beating Protoss very easy so P got some love now. As Protoss, I love this pach... @ Zergling Reducing Zergling speed but increasing their DPS (lower cooldown) seem like a good idea. It would make microing against them a bit easier without reducing their strengh. @ Creep I also think that the way creep work in Starbow can be improved. In SC2, the additional speed provided by creep is very important because it allow Queens to defend against air harassment and because it make slow roach and hydra better against early pressure without making them better at attacking. In Starbow, this addional speed isn't really needed because hydra's speed upgrad can be researched early. It make hydra good at both offense and defense, even without the additional speed provided by creep. It's the same with the creep provided by Overlord. In SC2, it can be used with hydra because without it, hydra are very slow but in Starbow, hydra don't need this additional mobility. I think reducing (or removing) the speed bonus provided by creep can be a good idea if we find a good way to make creep more important. A high health regeneration bonus can be a good idea since it would allow Zerg to reduce the effect of AOE against them. Creep can also increase energy regen rate to make Zerg's caster better in defense and to make overlord creep spread ability more usefull in late game since it would allow Zerg to bring overlord with their army to icnrease the power of their casters. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bUw7g.jpg) Creep gives a HIGH regeneration rate per second to units on creep. (Example 4 Life per second.) But it works just like Protoss Shields... You will not regenerate while you fight. A Zerg unit shall not have taken damage for... say 4 seconds before they start to regenerate on creep. How would this effect gameplay? Fighting on creep offers an indirect defenders advantage that good Zerg players can exploit. Zerg can not just A-move and figth on creep to benefit from it. Instead, a skilled Zerg player can "dance away" with his units to heal them, thus combats last longer and Zerg have more reasons to micro and gain more value from his units. This will also mean that Overlords with creep spread is better to bring near combats. They can create small "islands" of creep who functions like healing zones for Zerg. If your Hydras are wounded from a storm, walk back to the overlords with creep and regenerate them! Apart from this, creep can still give a smaller speed bonus, since its a racial feature of Zerg to have fast units. The healing rate can also be different for different units. For example should Drones probably not benefit from it. What is the problem with this idea? Since Zerg consists mostly of low life units, there are not so many units that would benefit from moving away to heal. Hydras, Lurkers, Infestors and Ultras would be useful to back away for healing. Zerglings and Banelings would not care since they die so fast anyways. IF the Roach is brought back into the game, it would be another unit that would be able to benefit from the new creep. Who knows, maybe can it get an upgrade that always gives it high regeneration on creep. (No delay) To have a creep system like this, the reward of actually moving back to heal must be worth it. Hence, the regeneration rate per second gotta be good enough. Obviously Zerg units will not heal otherwise. Overall I think this is a easy change to make that would have indirect effects on how Zerg chooses to control his units. Many Zerg players will probably not care about it. But it offers another play style to those who take advantage of it. So I am positive about it, unless anyone sees flaws in this. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q0Umw.jpg) The Zergling is an iconic unit. Its characteristic features are its speed, low HP and high damage. Its a fun thing to control Zerglings to snipe enemy units out of position, or do run-bys into enemy bases. In BW, flanking with them was a great thing! The problem is that the SC2 Zergling, with its smaller size, tightly packed units in clumps and blazing fast move speed (especially on creep) makes it a unit that is hard to fight against. They are so smart that they surround anything! The inflation of larvas in SC2 and the easiness of flooding Zerglings make them feel less special. Anyone can get a huge numbers of Zerglings and make a perfect surround. Its no challenge. In SC2 games, and in Starbow, we see 50-100 Zerglings being built at the same time, rally pointed to the same area to just chew the enemy army. Don´t get me wrong now. Its a good thing that mechanics are easier to control. So the solution would not necessaily be to "dumb down" hatcheries or rally points. I am just saying that there are a lot of factors in the SC2 engine that has made the Zergling not work like their BW cousin. And in my opinion has made them less fun to control. Possible solutions: - Make them benefit more from flanking and clever play, rather than being an A-move unit that auto-surrounds. (I am working on this now, but I can´t find any good way to fix it. The radius value seems to not be enough >.<) - Make them a little bit bigger. - Reduce move speed and increase attack speed. - The speed upgrade gives them an ability instead of permanent speed upgrade. When activated, Zerglings gain a huge speed increase for a couple of seconds. (Zerg gotta use it at the right moments..) - And the most radical idea of them all: Change them at their nature... 50 HP, a bit lower speed and even maybe a bit lower attack speed. And a larger model, so not as many can flood the enemy.. Their new HP would allow them to live long enough to actually make them microable and controllable in combat. Lower speed would also make the enemy able to react to them. Maybe same speed as Vultures? If the new creep system is added, they would also have enough HP to actually benefit from being microed out of combat and back. (Obviously this would be a fundamental change in the current balance and it would alter the nature of Zerglings quite drastically.. So its not so realistic, even though I like that units live longer >.< ) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KO6Aj.jpg) "Say hello to my little friend..." | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
Concerning Zergling, I like the idea of replacing the upgrad by a new ability. If needed, this ability can come with a small speed buff (like Charge in SC2) so Zergling still benefit from the upgrad even if they aren’t microed. However, I don’t like the idea of giving them 50 hp because if you do, Zealots with +1 attack upgrad no longer 2 shoot them as they shall be… | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
).There is way to make zerglings BW like. Just change their damage point. Damage point is time required for unit to deal damage after initiating atack. Marines have very good damage point (they shot, wait till cooldown on atack will pass, shot), stalkers have quite bad damage point (they are "charing" their atack before shoting, wait, and again charging shot), tanks have instant (or almost instant) damage point, so they shot once enemy is in range, and reavers have probably worst damage point in game. In BW almost all units had much worse damage points. Zerglings had to surround enemy or he could just retreat and shot, much easier. Zerglings were blocking each other after initiating atack and missing some of them, cause before their atacks finished enemy was too far. We can import easly that behavior here. To further give players control of flow of battle we can, as you say, slightly decrease their move speed, and decrease bonus from creep (but not remove it). Slower zerglings will require smarter use. Spliting will be more important before fight to achive more deciding flanks. And also, slower zerglings will give opponent more time to react. As compensation for these changes increasing zerglings atack speed, initial move speed and slight regeneration bonus from creep should be enough. | ||
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