[A] Starbow - Page 111

On October 14 2012 16:34 maybenexttime wrote:


When was the last time you played BW? O_o

On October 14 2012 07:05 Kabel wrote:
Some kind of competition to show off the MOD would be a great idea! But again, there are too many issues I need to fix first: the tooltips are not showing up for all players, the map pool need better maps (I have a few one who will soon be uploaded) and the game is not balanced or completed enough yet. But within a few weeks time, I think this will have reached a point of decent perfection.



This post is based on my opinion regarding the feeling I get when I play Zerg in Starbow. It has nothing to do with balance. See this post as therapy where I break down and analyze what causes me to still dislike Zerg in Starbow.

First of all, when I play as Protoss or Terran I feel there is so much to do. Lot of options, decisions in combat and interesting units/spells to use. Overall, both races feel very good to play. And they even feel good to play against!
Sadly enough, I don´t have that feeling when I play as Zerg in Starbow... Or when I play against Zerg...

Starbow is heavily based on BW and almost tries to be a sequel to the game. That is no secret. I was a Zerg player for many years in BW. That was my main race and I always enjoyed it. But here in Starbow I just don´t enjoy playing Zerg. I almost even enjoy it more in SC2!

I look at some aspects of the current Zerg in order to understand whats going on. Is it the race that has problems or is it me?

Zerg Macro

- Zerg must have macro hatcheries in Starbow.
- Zerg has fewer larvas to work with, which causes more careful decisions on how to spend them.
- Since Zerg needs more hatcheries anyways, its common to see a Zerg take 4-6 expansions realtively fast with a low number of workers on each. (And more bases equals more places to attack and defend... and that equals more fun!)
- Creep spread is still an important thing to do to connect the bases.

This sounds quite a lot like BW Zerg. Why am I not happy?

Larvas spawn slower in Starbow compared to SC2 and BW. That is to balance the fact that a lower number of workers is needed per base and to not mess up the saturation time. If workers had "normal" build time, bases would saturate very fast in Starbow. And if Zerg had "normal" spawn rate on larvas, they would get a huge advantage in worker production compared to P and T.

But it also creates a feeling that Zerg develops slower than in BW and SC2, since you have to wait 3 seconds longer for each larva to spawn. That feeling of slower acceleration becomes even greater compared to SC2, since Inject here only gives 2 larva instead of 4. Again, the reason for this is balance and it corresponds quite well with the other races development. But P and T have not recieved a nerf in anything that accelerates them!

Another aspect of Zerg macro is the multiple selection of buildings. It was a unique Zerg thing in BW. When I had 4 hatcheries in one screen I could cntrl + click on a larva to select 12 larvas and build 12 hydras! Just like that! It felt very Zergy and no other race could mass produce units in the same way and in waves like that. It also provided another dimension to the Zerg defence. I had to make sure that all spawned Zerg units moved where they were needed. If the enemy was approaching one of my colonies, I had to send all my newly produced units there, which was hard since rally points were difficult to manage. This was an important skill that made good Zerg players able to defend their empires well, while bad Zerg players crumbled when attacked.

In Sc2 and in Starbow, if I see an enemy army moving towards one of my expansions, I can with one click set all my rally points there and use all my eggs to produce reinforcements that will auto-move to that location. I don´t have to do anything. I look at the enemy army, I determine how much units I need and I build it. My army of newly built Zerglings will auto-surrond and kill the enemy in most cases, without me having to do anything, as long as I get the right amount of units.



Zerg Combat

8 Zealots pushes out at the 7 minute mark? Ok, I use all eggs to create 30 Zerglings. If it is not enough, I make 30 more as soon as I can and it will be enough to kill the enemy with my superior A-move command. (It will still be harder for Protoss to rebuild 8 Zealots than it is for me to get 30 new Zerglings.)

14 Marines, 3 Firebats and 3 Medics pushes out vs me? Ok, I use all eggs to create 30 Zerglings. AND I morph 15 of them into banelings. A-move. BAM! His army is dead.

I know I make it sound easy. But these scenarios happens all the time when I observe games. Combat vs Zerg ends in seconds. Either the Zerg army dies fast or it kills the enemy fast. Compare it to a combat between Protoss and Terran. + Show Spoiler +

What do we have in Zerg combat that is interesting?

In BW, flanking was a key thing to do for Zerg. You were so highly rewarded for attacking from multiple angles at the same time, and it was a fun thing to do too! Maybe it turns out that flanking indeed can be important in Starbow, but right now I never feel that I must flank the enemy. If I just A-move, my Zerglings will behave like water and flood the enemy. I just feel that there often is a low reward for paying attention to a combat as Zerg, compared to the other races.

Critical things to do in combat as Zerg:

- Burrow lurkers
- Cast spells with Infestors
- Cast Dark Swarm
- Dodge enemy storms.
- Maybe split Scourges if the enemy has air units
- Maybe use mutalisks for hit-and-run attacks
- Sometimes drop Banelings on the enemy

The core units, Zerglings, Banelings and Hydras can just roam into the enemy and often from the same direction. The situation gets a little bit more interesting when Hydras are fighting Zealots. A Zerg player will indeed be rewarded for splitting his Hydras vs speed zealots, to minimize casualties. But against most other units, neither Zerglings or Hydras are highly rewarded by micro in a straight up fight.

Zerg also has the most unmicroable unit in the game: Zergling. It is so tiny, it moves so fast on creep and is so auto-smart that it is not humanly possible to react to it or target it. (Yes I know I am a rusty Diamond player and GSL players would just laugh their asses off at this statement. But I make this mod for human players, not for cyborgs >_< )

Bot honestly, when 50 tightly packed Zerglings attacks an army, what can a player do? Its a wave of death that either win or loses, no matter what a player does in those few seconds of combat. Yes, you can place spider mines, cast a nerve jammer, get firebats into position just before the Zergling wave surronds your army. Or you can storm it or blink away. But the battle itself have a low level of interaction. Even 10 Zealots vs 30 Zerglings is over so quickly. Maybe Zerg can back away with a few Zerglings to save them, or the Zealots can reposition themselves a little bit. But compare SC2 Zerglings with BW Zerglings on VODS or in a stream. You can actually react to BW Zerglings and controliing them actually matters in combat!

Anyways, many of these problems occur in SC2 too. But I feel that they are even worse in the Starbow context.



Zerg has no new toys

First of all, a lot of "fun" Zerg stuff has been nerfed in Starbow:

Larvas spawn slower.
Inject is weaker and must not be done.
Queen has a limit. (Which has both good and negative effects, in my opinion.)
No Roaches.
Fungal Growth do not deal damage, which takes away a key feature of the Infestor.
No Changeling or Contaminate.
Nydus was removed but it has recently been brought back...
Brood Lords spawned no Broodlings but they do again...

What have Zerg recieved that is fun to use?

- Scourges
- Lurkers
- Dark Swarm
- Almost all Zerg ground units can move slowly while burrowed.

Out of all this, Lurkers is most fun to use. Dark Swarm is messy and confusing. ("This works or not under it?")
Compare it to P and T who has gotten Spider mines, Wraiths, Irradiate, Reavers, Dark Archons, Arbiters, etc! They have even got more interactions with stuff they already had in the game: the decision between Warpgate/Gateway, Chrono boost cannons, Calldown SCV instead of Mule and so on..



Ok, so what can be done to make Zerg become fun?

Based on all this I have written above, (and I will ask you all to share your view on this matter) I have some thoughts on possible solutions. Lets start:


Flanking
If flaing mattered more for Zerg, it would add a unique racial feature that seperated Zerg from the other races. How can that be done?!

More dimensions in Zerg combat
If Zerg units would benefit more from being controlled, combats would feel less one-dimensional. How do we do that?

Overlord with creep spread must matter!

I have never understood why Blizzard added such a cool ability with only a limited purpose. I think there is room for more design in Overlords dropping creep. For the most part its a pointless ability right now. If the creep they dropped actually gave a bonus in combat, we would see scenarios were Zerg position their overlords smartly on the battlefield. If overlord creep spread made units under it regenerate life, gain armor or whatever, we would see the dynamics of Zerg retreating back to a overlord for support, just as Terran units backs to siege tanks for support, to gain a favorable position in combat

The Roach

The Roach in its current form solves nothing. But if it can become a unit with more depth then being the little brother of the hydralisk, it would be a benefit for the Zerg race.

Macro

Zerg macro do not feel unique or fun. We are adding BW macro to Zerg while still using SC2 mechanics. Its the same as macroing from mass gateways or mass barracks. Maybe the macro can be adjusted in some way to make Zerg macro feel more like... Zerg macro..

Queen must become a key unit for Zerg:
Its most important feature in Starbow is the ability to spread creep. Inject is ok, but not at all so important as in SC2. This causes the Queen to feel less useful now, while at the same time I have limited so players can only have a few, to make them feel more important! This does not make sense. If the Queen becomes important in some way than it currently is, it will be a swing for the Zerg race. Right now they are kinda redundant. They have less purpose here than in SC2.




Final question:

for those of you who actually read all text above, is it the Zerg race who has problem or is it me? O_o

On October 14 2012 16:14 Beef Noodles wrote:
I normally like smile's ideas, but I don't like a few of these for several reasons.


First: I think it's a combo of how small the maps are, how close the bases are, and how fast the units are (especially zerglings). I want all three to change for all the great reasons you said in your post.

Second: I do agree that we need to take a long look at larva mechanics. I need to play more to form an opinion.


Third: I really hate the idea of tons of DoT spells and auras and all that crap. 1) it makes the game REALLY hard to understand for spectators and beginners, and 2) it feels so WC3-like and not like starcraft. Those effects should be VERY rare and easily understood (like plague in sc:bw).

I think a much simpler fix to get overlords out onto the map (which is essentially what we all want), is to take away sight from creep tumors. This will make putting ovies around the map much more important (for sight, and also to spot for creep tumors so they can spread. If this turns out to be too be of a nerf to creep, allow creep tumors to spread without vision, and that will still require ovies around the map for sight.

4) I liked the original idea for roaches (which browder talked a lot about when sc2 was still in alpha testing). A really non-beefy unit, with low range, but REALLY fast health regen. I would like to see a 1 supply roach that is really weak, but with burrow and health regen, can hold its own. If the roach is reintroduced in its current beefy state, I'll be a sad panda.

5) I kinda like the idea of giving hydras a glaive ability, but only for another 2-3 targets (like mutas), and only against air (to deal with mutas in zvz). I think glaive hydras would be super op vs toss.

6) I really like this idea. Would your baneling changes also include a damage nerf or stay the same?

7) I REALLY don't like your zergling idea. I really hope the zergling goes in the complete opposite direction. I want the sc1 zergling back for so many reasons. Bigger and slower zerglings (less surface area against targets) combined with much higher dps allows for actual zergling micro. Currently, zergling dps is too weak to ever kill a supply depo... even if terran pulls scvs super late... Also, reenforcing zerglings being so fast makes it really hard for toss and terran to ever retreat with the surviving units after a big battle. Don't like that... And, zerglings being so small, its almost impossible to micro them (mostly a problem in zvz). And if the zergling is bigger, then it will LOOK more swarmy cause they take up more of the screen.

On October 14 2012 16:14 Beef Noodles wrote:


6) I really like this idea. Would your baneling changes also include a damage nerf or stay the same?

On October 14 2012 19:10 Kabel wrote:
@Flanking

I will experiment in the editor and see how the collision radius and turn speed can make Zerg units less good at auto-sorround. Maybe this will encouarge players to set up proper flankings, if they gain notable benefits from it. Another factor is even shorter range. Hydras in a large clump will not be as effective since not all can shoot. (I will not change anything about this yet, thought.)