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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I used it an example to show that the pace of the game allows such micro to happen. There is a human limit to consider. If the gamespeed in BW was 2 times higher, it would be very hard to control the units and even pro gamers would not be able to do that fancy micro. Thats why I think Speedlings on creep is a problem. The damage point is a good idea. I just don´t find a value for it in the editor. Hmm.. Edit: Haha nevermind I found it ^^ I will experiment with it | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Thinking about it - Zerglings delayed damage point might be the origin of the "Bisu probe" - one of the most awesome displays of micro in BW. | ||
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Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
On October 15 2012 23:34 Kabel wrote: I think Zerg is the race with least stuff to do with their units in combat. I would like to encourage the micro aspect of Zerg. One way that would make Zerg funnier would be to add another effect to creep. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bUw7g.jpg) Creep gives a HIGH regeneration rate per second to units on creep. (Example 4 Life per second.) But it works just like Protoss Shields... You will not regenerate while you fight. A Zerg unit shall not have taken damage for... say 4 seconds before they start to regenerate on creep. How would this effect gameplay? Fighting on creep offers an indirect defenders advantage that good Zerg players can exploit. Zerg can not just A-move and figth on creep to benefit from it. Instead, a skilled Zerg player can "dance away" with his units to heal them, thus combats last longer and Zerg have more reasons to micro and gain more value from his units. This will also mean that Overlords with creep spread is better to bring near combats. They can create small "islands" of creep who functions like healing zones for Zerg. If your Hydras are wounded from a storm, walk back to the overlords with creep and regenerate them! Apart from this, creep can still give a smaller speed bonus, since its a racial feature of Zerg to have fast units. The healing rate can also be different for different units. For example should Drones probably not benefit from it. What is the problem with this idea? Since Zerg consists mostly of low life units, there are not so many units that would benefit from moving away to heal. Hydras, Lurkers, Infestors and Ultras would be useful to back away for healing. Zerglings and Banelings would not care since they die so fast anyways. IF the Roach is brought back into the game, it would be another unit that would be able to benefit from the new creep. Who knows, maybe can it get an upgrade that always gives it high regeneration on creep. (No delay) To have a creep system like this, the reward of actually moving back to heal must be worth it. Hence, the regeneration rate per second gotta be good enough. Obviously Zerg units will not heal otherwise. Overall I think this is a easy change to make that would have indirect effects on how Zerg chooses to control his units. Many Zerg players will probably not care about it. But it offers another play style to those who take advantage of it. So I am positive about it, unless anyone sees flaws in this. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q0Umw.jpg) The Zergling is an iconic unit. Its characteristic features are its speed, low HP and high damage. Its a fun thing to control Zerglings to snipe enemy units out of position, or do run-bys into enemy bases. In BW, flanking with them was a great thing! The problem is that the SC2 Zergling, with its smaller size, tightly packed units in clumps and blazing fast move speed (especially on creep) makes it a unit that is hard to fight against. They are so smart that they surround anything! The inflation of larvas in SC2 and the easiness of flooding Zerglings make them feel less special. Anyone can get a huge numbers of Zerglings and make a perfect surround. Its no challenge. In SC2 games, and in Starbow, we see 50-100 Zerglings being built at the same time, rally pointed to the same area to just chew the enemy army. Don´t get me wrong now. Its a good thing that mechanics are easier to control. So the solution would not necessaily be to "dumb down" hatcheries or rally points. I am just saying that there are a lot of factors in the SC2 engine that has made the Zergling not work like their BW cousin. And in my opinion has made them less fun to control. Possible solutions: - Make them benefit more from flanking and clever play, rather than being an A-move unit that auto-surrounds. (I am working on this now, but I can´t find any good way to fix it. The radius value seems to not be enough >.<) - Make them a little bit bigger. - Reduce move speed and increase attack speed. - The speed upgrade gives them an ability instead of permanent speed upgrade. When activated, Zerglings gain a huge speed increase for a couple of seconds. (Zerg gotta use it at the right moments..) - And the most radical idea of them all: Change them at their nature... 50 HP, a bit lower speed and even maybe a bit lower attack speed. And a larger model, so not as many can flood the enemy.. Their new HP would allow them to live long enough to actually make them microable and controllable in combat. Lower speed would also make the enemy able to react to them. Maybe same speed as Vultures? If the new creep system is added, they would also have enough HP to actually benefit from being microed out of combat and back. (Obviously this would be a fundamental change in the current balance and it would alter the nature of Zerglings quite drastically.. So its not so realistic, even though I like that units live longer >.< ) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KO6Aj.jpg) "Say hello to my little friend..." I like these Ideas, I actually had thought of something VERY similar. For creep, Having it give a smaller move speed bonus like 10%-20% so zerg can better defend conected bases (since zerg tends to be more spread out) seams fair and having it give bonus health regen as a defender\s advantage feels cool, unique and,like you said, will bring creep more into the fight via spread and overlords. My Original idea was to have zerg units benefit from 50% increased regen while on the creep (which is about .15 hp per second bonus) coupled with your idea of increases regen further while out of combat will be really cool and allow a talented zerg to hold a position better. I'm wary of increasing the HP of lings, only because if we do Sieged tanks won't be able to one shot them with upgrades, which I feel is a very big deal for terrans since lings are cheap and excellent tank fodder. though it can be something to experiment with. Banelings are something i would also experiment with higher HP, since they are quite an investment and important to control/use effectively. I had though of having ling speed give a smaller speed boost but also a leap ability on CD, I think i prefer your ability though; Currentling lings move at 2.9 speed + 1.7 with the upgrade, what if we cut the upgrade in half to .85 speed boost (which is still substantial) and allow lings to get a 50% boost (5.625!!!) speed for 5-6 seconds on like a 20 second CD. I would give lings their wings back with speed and casue them to flap when they get the boost so it's visual and easy to spot and react. I had just thought this morning of making the roach benefit from increased regen, do something like 10+6 to light damage, have 90ish HP but no armored tag which makes the roach resistent to nearly all forms of bonus damage and make it something that isint tough to kill simply because it has absurd HP, possible to give +1 armor so it stays strong vs lings, zeolots and marines maybe. still need to think of a way to make the roach more of a burrow focused specialist :/ | ||
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Von
United States363 Posts
On October 15 2012 10:57 decemberscalm wrote: Its starcraft 2 in general that everything dies too quickly. Its not a Z only problem. -smart pathing -clumping -control groups -actual game speed is faster This is why I suggested earlier to increase Durability of all units and structures in the game by ~20 - 30%. Where Durability = HP / Shields / or any other stats that reflect the ability of the units and structures to handle punishment. A global increase in Durability across the board means: - More time to micro, on both sides - More time to maneuver, on both sides - More time to re-enforce, on both sides - More time to maneuver multiple units for synergistic tactics (ala. Reaver Drops) ...and etc ie. Better, longer lasting battles among all races - without having to rebalance states between races, units, and stuctures. The only caveat that someone mentioned, was that spellcaster units might need spell strength compensated (again, globally by %) in order to keep spells in their outcome / tide-turning role. Has anyone else done this thought experiment and found potential drawbacks? Because I don't see any so far. from Kabel: My defintion of micro: The method players can use to minimize casualities and maximize damage in combat via use of their units. I want it to be as present as possible in every fight, since that is what makes Starcraft so dynamic and breathtaking! And the moral of my post is that Zerglings offers very little room for interactions. (But you know that by now) {..} Ps. Examples of breath taking micro: Again this is possible because the pace of the game allows them to do this. Imagine if the game was played twice as fast? Not even the best players would be able to create such dynamic combats. Time is a function of Durability of the units and structures. I really think the simplest way to increase Time to micro, macro, and play -- without inadvertently throwing off some other finely tuned aspect of the game -- is to increase Durability of all units and structures globally in the game by a percentage. Unless I'm completely missing something in this equation. | ||
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
Zergling speed is very sensitive so becareful if you're planning on nerfing it. Zerglings should be able to chase down any ground unit in the game, their speed is their power. If we dumb down lings too much the bio is going to be able to easily stutter kill patches of lings. Increasing durability of all units would be fine as long as it's not too high. Like I said, Warcraft 3 battles were so damn boring. There no was no intense "WHAT IS THE OUTCOME GOING TO BE OF THIS ENGAGEMENT!!" moments during battles and no durastic last second micro tricks that could pull someone who is losing the engagement into the lead and end up winning it. Starcraft has a large thrill aspect to it with engagements because everything requires such percision and you never know how things are gunna end up, don't want to take away from that. I think slowing down the game speed (this was mentioned a few pages back) would be a horrible idea because it slows down everything and the one thing people like the most is getting right into the game asap. It's not fun playing the first 3-5 minutes of the game, why slow it down even more? | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
1. Giving detection to queens and remove detection from Overseers. Probably most of you wont agree with that but, this solution have many benefits. Queens gonna be more important. Creep spread will be more important, to get detection, whenever you are pushing at later stages of game. There is limited number of queens you can have so sniping them could be huge in while defending, pushing or harrasing vs zerg. DTs will provide much more map control than they do now. Wraths will be able to fly around map sniping overlords. 2. Overseer as t2 caster witchout passive detection. Skills: -Spawn infested terran (higher cost than infestor, 50 or so), -Ensare/Fungal, -Mass Contaminate(preferably AoE spell like oracle spell vs minerals. Disables building for long duration unless you will "kill" contamination earlier) -maybe single target (or small aoe) snipe spell disabling castable abilities Versalite, multipurpose caster. Can shine as support, can harras and disable enemy casters. Infested terrans can be used both as drops in base and to help breaking tank lines and more. Ensare/Fungal on flying caster will allow to cast it from much better angle, slow down reinforments and reveal cloaked units! Mass contaminate can also be very powerful. Disabling couple of production facilities when opponent moves out will deny for some time his ability to reinforce unless he will leave some units or place turrrets well, to prevent it. 3. Infestor as ground t3 caster with: -Plague -Dark Swarm -Consume Good old defiler. Powerful but slow and requiring good control. No more omnipresent swarm guardian. Finally possible to snipe them with vultures or zerglings, and even kill them with tanks. 4. Nydus: cheaper, hive tech, buildable only on creep with longer BT, but transporting units much faster. Not for cheesing, but to further strenghten defenders adventage. Preferably instant transportation, 1 worm for 1 exit. Putting whole army inside and leaving out of one nydus wherever you need is not cool imho. Connect bases, but remember how you do it. It will be powerful option in good hands. 5. Creep: 10-20% Movement speed bonus, and small bonus to regeneration => about 1+0,5% of max hps. This way all units will be healed in resonable time, will give defenders adventage (as most of units will be able to take 1 or 2 hits more most of the time during 10-20sec battle). | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
- More time to micro, on both sides - More time to maneuver, on both sides - More time to re-enforce, on both sides - More time to maneuver multiple units for synergistic tactics (ala. Reaver Drops) By Von Disadvantages: Increasing durability=> Longer less exciting battles where every second counts less. Range and damage burst is meaning less. Units like tanks are no longer so effective, cause distance is closed relatively faster. You have more time to react to harras, multipronged atacks are less evective and do less damage. Every decision count less and you can easier come back from bad ones. Overall with each engagement there is definitly less of "wow" as each second count less. By Danko Personally I dont think an increase in HP is the right way to go, since it messes up so many units interactions. (Zealots do not 2 shot Zerglings with +1 upg for example..) It also changes values we are all used to: workers have 40 life, zerglings 35 etc. Instead I think a reduction of 10% in attack and move speed can be a way to go and it would archieve the same effect. Its not as obvious. Perhaps would many players not even notice it. What would the total effect be in combats? Without calculating, I would say the impact would be a few seconds longer larger combats, and those few seconds enable a little bit more micro. (Roblin, you wanna give it a go? ^^ ) But obviously a change like this must be small and not destroy the fast pace of the game. I honestly don´t see how the game would become worse by giving players a little bit more time to react. -.- Again, I am not saying I will bring it down to a WC3 level. Its like we have two modes to choose from: either Starcraft speed or Warcraft speed :p I will not "slow down" the game at this stage of development. Once a decent balance is established and the races really are complete and the interaction between units seems fine... At that point I might slow the attack and move speed down by 10%, since it would still be equal between all units and not mess any interactions up. @Danko Detection on Queen.. There are some advantages with it, but some great disadvantes to... Hmm.. The spells you propose for the Overseer might aswell be on the Swarm Guardian. To make Infestors into Defiliers would just be confusing. Instead I might aswell bring back the Defiler model and scrap the Infestor completely. (But I will most likely not do that, since I think Infestors are one of the most interesting spell casters in the game and it would be a shame to scrap it) Nyduses were recently brought back into the game and requires creep now. They still work as SC2 worms rather than the BW version. I wanna see more gameplay with it before I do anything further. I don´t think another static bonus to creep is the way to go. It already provides movement speed. If it adds static regeneration, there is even less reason to micro units. They can just stand, fight and heal at the same time. If they instead heal faster when NOT in combat, there is more reason for Zerg to micro and rotate units in and out of combat. Which is good and exactly what I try to archieve for Zerg. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
Anyway, I like this idea the most: On October 15 2012 23:34 Kabel wrote: - And the most radical idea of them all: Change them at their nature... 50 HP, a bit lower speed and even maybe a bit lower attack speed. And a larger model, so not as many can flood the enemy.. Their new HP would allow them to live long enough to actually make them microable and controllable in combat. Lower speed would also make the enemy able to react to them. Maybe same speed as Vultures? If the new creep system is added, they would also have enough HP to actually benefit from being microed out of combat and back. (Obviously this would be a fundamental change in the current balance and it would alter the nature of Zerglings quite drastically.. So its not so realistic, even though I like that units live longer >.< ) I think the most important changes are: movement speed, HP, and size. Gameplay wise, I think playing as zerg and against it would benefit from a larger sized zergling. As balance is tested, the other 2 changes should probably be the areas to look at. I think even with a larger model, zerglings way too fast, so tweaks to movement speed and health could help balance everything. EDIT: lol, I didn't know TL kept track of birthdays >< | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Detection on Queen.. There are some advantages with it, but some great disadvantes to... Hmm.. The spells you propose for the Overseer might aswell be on the Swarm Guardian. To make Infestors into Defiliers would just be confusing. Instead I might aswell bring back the Defiler model and scrap the Infestor completely. (But I will most likely not do that, since I think Infestors are one of the most interesting spell casters in the game and it would be a shame to scrap it) Nyduses were recently brought back into the game and requires creep now. They still work as SC2 worms rather than the BW version. I wanna see more gameplay with it before I do anything further. I don´t think another static bonus to creep is the way to go. It already provides movement speed. If it adds static regeneration, there is even less reason to micro units. They can just stand, fight and heal at the same time. If they instead heal faster when NOT in combat, there is more reason for Zerg to micro and rotate units in and out of combat. Which is good and exactly what I try to archieve for Zerg. How these spells can be on swarm guardian? Swarm guardian is t3, he has power spells, like plague and dark swarm. Huge, AoE, powerful game changing spells. These are game changers, but perfect spells giving you adventage bit by bit to victory. Of course sometimes 3 infested terrans can win game, but you dont wanna compare it to dark swarm. Whats so good about infestors? I never really liked their model. Their spells are meh... Neural is barely used. Fungal has one huge flaw (denies micro). Only infested terrans are quite cool. I think there is no reason to not try that on overseer. Defiler was much more climatic if you ask me. Also, he was small. Fragile and slow. Could be easly sniped, but could as well hide between other units. Also, he could protect himself with dark swarm. These spells could be so strong only cause defilers were dying so easly everywhere. Zerg units are not blink stalkers. Short range, low hit points. That cant work. Bonus from creep should be small enough to barely affect fight but give them ability to strike back resonably quickly (without making transfuse useless). You can make that bonus work only out of battle but make it very small. Not 4 per second, but something like 0,5+0,5%/s. This way every unit will be healthy within 60-90sec. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
In BW +2 mech was THE most important upgrade in a TvT, as it made sieged tanks kill other tanks in one less hit regardless of the opposing tanks upgrade. +3 was used, but only helped when goliaths and vultures are considered. increasing hp by ever 10% across the board will mess up ALL the discrete upgrade interactions in the game, and directly lower the value of upgrades. Zergling health specifically is tuned to be 2-shot by +1 zealots and 1-shot by tanks. Here is how I see the "fix" to zerg: Creep gives 10% movement speed. Creep gives 10% attack speed (not needed - just a thought). Queens, Spines and Spores have a special ability that increases movement on creep. Creep give +200% regen when out of combat (only applies to units) Units get -50% of their current regen. Zerglings gain a 10-30% increase in size (look at other units as well). Zerglings have a delay of ~0.2 sec before their initial attack (look into this for zealots too). Speedling (and perhaps slowling) speed is decreased. Zergling damage is increased. Zergling attack speed is decreased. Crackling upgrade gets a small buff. Take a look at the impact on Hydra speed. Experiment with creep tumor build time, cooldown time and hp (without the speed bonus, creepspread have different purposes) | ||
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Canhanrah
35 Posts
On October 16 2012 04:18 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: Increasing unit hp would be a bad idea because of the way upgrades work. Everyone knows that Zealots with an upgrade advantage 2-shots Zerglings; this is one of the many (undiscovered for starbow) discrete upgrade benefits in the game. In BW +2 mech was THE most important upgrade in a TvT, as it made sieged tanks kill other tanks in one less hit regardless of the opposing tanks upgrade. +3 was used, but only helped when goliaths and vultures are considered. increasing hp by ever 10% across the board will mess up ALL the discrete upgrade interactions in the game, and directly lower the value of upgrades. Zergling health specifically is tuned to be 2-shot by +1 zealots and 1-shot by tanks. Here is how I see the "fix" to zerg: Creep gives 10% movement speed. Creep gives 10% attack speed (not needed - just a thought). Queens, Spines and Spores have a special ability that increases movement on creep. Creep give +200% regen when out of combat (only applies to units) Units get -50% of their current regen. Zerglings gain a 10-30% increase in size (look at other units as well). Zerglings have a delay of ~0.2 sec before their initial attack (look into this for zealots too). Speedling (and perhaps slowling) speed is decreased. Zergling damage is increased. Zergling attack speed is decreased. Crackling upgrade gets a small buff. Take a look at the impact on Hydra speed. Experiment with creep tumor build time, cooldown time and hp (without the speed bonus, creepspread have different purposes) Ok seriously we need to see EUs replays of vs Z...... | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Creep gives 10% attack speed (not needed - just a thought). -Disagree. No need imho. Queens, Spines and Spores have a special ability that increases movement on creep. -Sure, keep them as fast as now Creep give +200% regen when out of combat (only applies to units) -Dunno. Can be fine. Would prefer % of max hps so they can heal in resonable time. Units get -50% of their current regen. -Zerg regen is already quite low. Let it be like it is imho. Zerglings gain a 10-30% increase in size (look at other units as well). -Not needed if you want to increase their damage point imho. Zerglings have a delay of ~0.2 sec before their initial attack (look into this for zealots too). -Something like that. Speedling (and perhaps slowling) speed is decreased. -Slowling speed cant be decreased. With delay on atack he will be already much weaker. I would even say slowling speed increased so they can surround (especially with creep bonus nerf). Speedling speed can be decreased, so flanking is bit harder. Overal: slowling 3.0, speedling 4,25-4,4 depending on bonus from creep. Zergling damage is increased. -No chance. Completly disagree. This will screw all relations their atack/opponents damage. Fast upgrades for armor and maybe upgrade for planetary can be really effective vs lings. Zergling attack speed is decreased. -Completly disagree. They are supposed to deal INSANE dps, but when they can atack. If they can atack constantly they will be very effective, not when they can stab and chase imho. Imho delay on damage point + faster atack speed + bit lower move speed. Crackling upgrade gets a small buff. -Dunno. Its 0,11 right now. It should be about 25% if you ask me (22% now). | ||
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nilsheam
United States28 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
You messed with the delicate terran/protoss worker creation rate / larva spawn rate / terran protoss unit building rate balance; that is why you are having balance problems. By increasing worker creating time from 17 seconds to 22 seconds you created a sort of illusion of excess minerals. The illusion of excess minerals isn't from the mineral rate per worker being high (thus an illusion), it comes from a much lower % of your income being spent on workers in normal upkeep compared to both SC2 and BW. This reduced worker creation rate makes it much easier to keep up with workers in terms of both APM and resources; too much easier. Even though the cost:benefit of workers is reduced, the increased time it takes to make them makes each one more valuable which makes it a bad idea to cut them, and the excess of minerals makes it unnecessary to cut them anyway. And the 9 mineral patches means you've got a ways to catch up. In other words, the tactic of cutting workers to make a stronger attack or expand earlier is not nearly as potent in this system. To get more to the point, macro management is not nearly as interesting in this system, and you don't have impressive feats of fighting the UI (hard mechanics like in BW) to fall back on. To get even more to the point, the skill cap is lowered dramatically. I will admit your system does fine as far as putting emphasis on fighting unit interactions, but 'breadth of gameplay' has a lot more to do with economy management. BTW the less than 2 workers per mineral cap is extremely limiting on these T's and P's that get stuck on 2 bases against a zerg player. The T's and P's in these situations should be able to continue making as many as 25 mineral workers on each of their 2 bases before they don't get any more benefit without expanding... but they are limited to just 18 workers per base (36) while A zerg with 3 bases can take those same 36 workers and get even more benefit from them.. on top of being able to make as many as 54 mineral workers. 3 full workers per mineral field is too much, but there needs to be a buffer zone so when you contain someone their actions aren't ridiculously predictable. And finally the increased worker speed really makes scouting a LOT easier... which lowers the skill cap not only by virtue of easier scouting but also because less (riskier) builds are as viable. - Workers cost/income: Yes, its different than in BW and SC2. So your builds will be different than in any of these games (even tho some will be similar). Dont know whats wrong with that point. - Jump from 17 to 22 seconds is not so huge. I admit that bad players will probably miss less workers. But well... its not like producing workers is hard overall. Cutting workers is less "viable" here. I agree. But this mod is already forcing much more expanding oriented game. Delaying expansion is already punishing. Its your "cutting workers" here. And you can still do this if you are not planing to expand anyway. - Macro management not as interesting? So mule is interesting? You can as well just drop free resources from sky. SCV drop is briliant compared to that. Maybe larvae inject is better? Its terrible when whole skill required to play one race is concentrated in ability to press couple of buttons in good order. I think managing and defending many bases having versalite multipurpose abilities is much cooler than beeing forced to use abilities brainlessly with mechanical precision. - Thats why toss and terran will have to take 3rd and 4th at some point. Its not yet balanced but im sure Kabel will do everything to give adequate tools to each race to play on equal terms. - I disagree completly. With so many viable options scouting has to be possible. And you still have to keep eye on your worker. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
You messed with the delicate terran/protoss worker creation rate / larva spawn rate / terran protoss unit building rate balance; that is why you are having balance problems. What kind of balance problems are you referring to? Cause there are obviously balance problems in a lot of areas within the game. Be more precise with your feedback please. By increasing worker creating time from 17 seconds to 22 seconds you created the illusion of excess minerals when in reality your collection rate per worker is actually particularly low (lower than even I recommend). The illusion of excess minerals comes from a much lower % of your income being spent on workers in normal upkeep compared to both SC2 and BW. The illusion of excess minerals? Either players have excess minerals or they dont. -_- Explain what you mean. This reduced worker creation rate makes it much easier to keep up with workers in terms of both APM and resources; too much easier. Even though the cost:benefit of workers is reduced, the increased time it takes to make them makes each one more valuable which makes it a bad idea to cut them, and the excess of minerals makes it unnecessary to cut them anyway. And the 9 mineral patches means you've got a ways to catch up. In other words, the tactic of cutting workers to make a stronger attack or expand earlier is not nearly as potent in this system. I do agree that the tactic of cutting workers is not as important/good in this system. (Even though I see players do it and they seem to still benefit from it) To get more to the point, macro management is not nearly as interesting in this system, and you don't have impressive feats of fighting the UI (hard mechanics like in BW) to fall back on. To get even more to the point, the skill cap is lowered dramatically. I will admit your system does fine as far as putting emphasis on fighting unit interactions, but 'breadth of gameplay' has a lot more to do with economy management. You seem to live by the delusion that hard mechanics makes a game good. But thats another discussion. Besides the lesser importance of cutting workers, what other factors do you mean makes macro management less interesting in Starbow? BTW the less than 2 workers per mineral cap is extremely limiting on these T's and P's that get stuck on 2 bases against a zerg player. The T's and P's in these situations should be able to continue making as many as 25 mineral workers on each of their 2 bases before they don't get any more benefit without expanding... but they are limited to just 18 workers per base (36) while A zerg with 3 bases can take those same 36 workers and get even more benefit from them.. on top of being able to make as many as 54 mineral workers. 3 full workers per mineral field is too much, but there needs to be a buffer zone so when you contain someone their actions aren't ridiculously predictable. I hope you consider that mineral patches only have 1000 minerals right now instead of 1500? Thus this contributes to bases being dryed out quicker. Also note that the Zerg race is very unfinished and under development and has recieved least balance in terms of numbers/stats/Build time/ to match the other races. And finally the increased worker speed really makes scouting a LOT easier... which lowers the skill cap not only by virtue of easier scouting but also because less (riskier) builds are as viable. You realize that worker speed was increased from 2.81 to 2.95? And you say that makes scouting a LOT easier? I changed it since Zerg could deny the scouting Probe in every single game with the 4 first Zerglings, since they are faster than workers. There was no way for P to get any info at all, especially not when the Probe got on creep. In BW there was no creep bonus to make Queens and Zerglings able to stop the Probe even easier. When the Probe and Zerglings have the same speed (before Zerglings speed upgrade), a skilled Protoss player can in fact get the information he needs, and a skilled Zerg player gotta use good micro to stop the probe. Whats the problem with that? --- How many games have you played this MOD versus human opponents? Or observed games? Have you looked in detail at the numbers I use? Do you even know why I use BT 22 on workers? I am not saying you are wrong with your feedback. I consider what you say. But its like you visit this thread once in a while and drop random comments advocating the FRB system and your Breadth of gameplay - article, without explaining your thoughts further in the current Starbow context.. -_- | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Forgot to reply. How these spells can be on swarm guardian? Swarm guardian is t3, he has power spells, like plague and dark swarm. Huge, AoE, powerful game changing spells. These are game changers, but perfect spells giving you adventage bit by bit to victory. Of course sometimes 3 infested terrans can win game, but you dont wanna compare it to dark swarm. I meant that the spells you propose for the Overseer could as well be on the Swarm Guardian/Viper. If it is moved to tier 2 and has the other spells removed. Since you want the Infestor to be the new Defilier, Dark Swarm etc should be on it instead. Or you have any specific reason that the Oversseer in particular should have those spells? Whats so good about infestors? I never really liked their model. Their spells are meh... Neural is barely used. Fungal has one huge flaw (denies micro). Only infested terrans are quite cool. I think there is no reason to not try that on overseer. Defiler was much more climatic if you ask me. Also, he was small. Fragile and slow. Could be easly sniped, but could as well hide between other units. Also, he could protect himself with dark swarm. These spells could be so strong only cause defilers were dying so easly everywhere. The concept of the Infestor is very good. It can be used in many ways: for harassment, to disable enemy key units, as support caster in combat. Unfortunatly, the balance on its spells in SC2 might not be optimal: Neural parasite is very risky, Fungal Growth broken. But all three spells on the Infestor offers great versatility. They just need to be adjusted to work better. And so far I have failed with improving the Zerg casters: / I don´t want to give Infested Terran to a flying unit since that would overlap with Brood Lords. The Brood Lord spawns ground units from the air. No reason to make another caster do it in a similar way. | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
by the Capn himself ZvT: 10 Hatch 10 Overlord Extractor Trick 13/14 Hatch or Pool (Hatch preferred, but you can secure a build advantage by going pool before 3rd hatch if you know your opponent won't CC first) Reactive play transitioning into Lurker/Ling with low Hydra count. Speed before Lair, time Hydra Den to finish with Lair if you're going for a timing push. ZvP Exact same thing, though I 3 Hatch Before Pool every time. Reacting to one base play: Scout! If you have no information beyond lack of nexus, 4 spines (2 at natural, 2 at 3rd) and massing Zerglings after ~20 drones is safe play while you get Queens. If you face air play, a hydra den and spores is a good response -- push with the hydra/ling force you've got and spore up. Do damage and either win or secure more expansions. Against cannon rushes, you auto-win by making hatcheries outside the contain. There is no excuse for losing your natural to cannons, though. I found I could reliably crush 5 gates, 4gate +1, voidray + gateway builds, and anything that comes delayed off of nexus first (not my fast PvZ pressure builds) with ease, putting me far ahead of my opponent unless I made tactical errors like running all my stuff in on move command or not making enough hatcheries. If I'm not heavily fucked with (and I don't respond optimally) I win every single ZvP and ZvT that I play without much effort, and ZvZ is all about establishing the same types of mineral and larva advantages. EDIT: I posted this because I want to make sure we're "playing the same game" so to speak. I can't imagine anyone having issues with playing Zerg on either server and winning unless they're making big mistakes or playing in a way that doesn't work towards Zerg's strengths. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
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