[A] Starbow - Page 110

On October 13 2012 22:39 Gendi2545 wrote:


I came across an interesting idea for a new terran unit a while ago, someone posted it on TL but I can't remember where.

The idea is to have an artillery unit similar to the siege tank, except it has slightly longer range, little/no splash and can only fire in a narrow arc, with slow turret movement. It was suggested as a way of breaking siege lines in TvT without using a boring unit like the warhound.

This unit would promote more positional play in TvT as players try to break siege lines with artillery while flanking with other units, I'm not sure it would have any utility in other matchups though. Maybe it would spice terran up a little.

On October 13 2012 22:48 Caas wrote:
well.. TvT for start is very positional indeed but you have to use science vessels and drops to break siege lines as it is now..
Nerve jammer can fuck you pretty good if you clumped your tanks..

but i wonder why the immortal is still around since its an almost unkillable anti mech unit..
makes mech very hard

On October 14 2012 04:12 ArkussSC2 wrote:
I suggested the icCup system a while ago would be sick to implement. Could do one like the Income Wars custom, they have a rank system that goes from bronze to grand master with the little league icon next to the persons name. It's based off win/loss and games played. Obviously the issue is a gold skill player can get GM just by playing a lot of games but we can force win %'s like 55% for masters close to 60% for GM or scale it lower if thats too high, something like that.

Also, before Kabel releases a HotS Starbow (still awhile a way I know) we should find a way to a friendly NA vs EU BO9 and stream it, post it on TL with times and such. Would be a fun event and it might help us gain some popularity. Get like 1-2 casters from each server. Just an idea

On October 14 2012 05:31 ArkussSC2 wrote:
Yeah I was thinking that for the top 5 and the top player would be the teams ace. Could have a round robins tourney on the server and the 5 people with the best score have a playoffs for the ace position. Would be a lot of fun. Could gain popularity just from streaming the server competition to see who's representing what server.

On October 14 2012 07:05 Kabel wrote:
Some kind of competition to show off the MOD would be a great idea! But again, there are too many issues I need to fix first: the tooltips are not showing up for all players, the map pool need better maps (I have a few one who will soon be uploaded) and the game is not balanced or completed enough yet. But within a few weeks time, I think this will have reached a point of decent perfection.



This post is based on my opinion regarding the feeling I get when I play Zerg in Starbow. It has nothing to do with balance. See this post as therapy where I break down and analyze what causes me to still dislike Zerg in Starbow.

First of all, when I play as Protoss or Terran I feel there is so much to do. Lot of options, decisions in combat and interesting units/spells to use. Overall, both races feel very good to play. And they even feel good to play against!
Sadly enough, I don´t have that feeling when I play as Zerg in Starbow... Or when I play against Zerg...

Starbow is heavily based on BW and almost tries to be a sequel to the game. That is no secret. I was a Zerg player for many years in BW. That was my main race and I always enjoyed it. But here in Starbow I just don´t enjoy playing Zerg. I almost even enjoy it more in SC2!

I look at some aspects of the current Zerg in order to understand whats going on. Is it the race that has problems or is it me?

Zerg Macro

- Zerg must have macro hatcheries in Starbow.
- Zerg has fewer larvas to work with, which causes more careful decisions on how to spend them.
- Since Zerg needs more hatcheries anyways, its common to see a Zerg take 4-6 expansions realtively fast with a low number of workers on each. (And more bases equals more places to attack and defend... and that equals more fun!)
- Creep spread is still an important thing to do to connect the bases.

This sounds quite a lot like BW Zerg. Why am I not happy?

Larvas spawn slower in Starbow compared to SC2 and BW. That is to balance the fact that a lower number of workers is needed per base and to not mess up the saturation time. If workers had "normal" build time, bases would saturate very fast in Starbow. And if Zerg had "normal" spawn rate on larvas, they would get a huge advantage in worker production compared to P and T.

But it also creates a feeling that Zerg develops slower than in BW and SC2, since you have to wait 3 seconds longer for each larva to spawn. That feeling of slower acceleration becomes even greater compared to SC2, since Inject here only gives 2 larva instead of 4. Again, the reason for this is balance and it corresponds quite well with the other races development. But P and T have not recieved a nerf in anything that accelerates them!

Another aspect of Zerg macro is the multiple selection of buildings. It was a unique Zerg thing in BW. When I had 4 hatcheries in one screen I could cntrl + click on a larva to select 12 larvas and build 12 hydras! Just like that! It felt very Zergy and no other race could mass produce units in the same way and in waves like that. It also provided another dimension to the Zerg defence. I had to make sure that all spawned Zerg units moved where they were needed. If the enemy was approaching one of my colonies, I had to send all my newly produced units there, which was hard since rally points were difficult to manage. This was an important skill that made good Zerg players able to defend their empires well, while bad Zerg players crumbled when attacked.

In Sc2 and in Starbow, if I see an enemy army moving towards one of my expansions, I can with one click set all my rally points there and use all my eggs to produce reinforcements that will auto-move to that location. I don´t have to do anything. I look at the enemy army, I determine how much units I need and I build it. My army of newly built Zerglings will auto-surrond and kill the enemy in most cases, without me having to do anything, as long as I get the right amount of units.



Zerg Combat

8 Zealots pushes out at the 7 minute mark? Ok, I use all eggs to create 30 Zerglings. If it is not enough, I make 30 more as soon as I can and it will be enough to kill the enemy with my superior A-move command. (It will still be harder for Protoss to rebuild 8 Zealots than it is for me to get 30 new Zerglings.)

14 Marines, 3 Firebats and 3 Medics pushes out vs me? Ok, I use all eggs to create 30 Zerglings. AND I morph 15 of them into banelings. A-move. BAM! His army is dead.

I know I make it sound easy. But these scenarios happens all the time when I observe games. Combat vs Zerg ends in seconds. Either the Zerg army dies fast or it kills the enemy fast. Compare it to a combat between Protoss and Terran. + Show Spoiler +

What do we have in Zerg combat that is interesting?

In BW, flanking was a key thing to do for Zerg. You were so highly rewarded for attacking from multiple angles at the same time, and it was a fun thing to do too! Maybe it turns out that flanking indeed can be important in Starbow, but right now I never feel that I must flank the enemy. If I just A-move, my Zerglings will behave like water and flood the enemy. I just feel that there often is a low reward for paying attention to a combat as Zerg, compared to the other races.

Critical things to do in combat as Zerg:

- Burrow lurkers
- Cast spells with Infestors
- Cast Dark Swarm
- Dodge enemy storms.
- Maybe split Scourges if the enemy has air units
- Maybe use mutalisks for hit-and-run attacks
- Sometimes drop Banelings on the enemy

The core units, Zerglings, Banelings and Hydras can just roam into the enemy and often from the same direction. The situation gets a little bit more interesting when Hydras are fighting Zealots. A Zerg player will indeed be rewarded for splitting his Hydras vs speed zealots, to minimize casualties. But against most other units, neither Zerglings or Hydras are highly rewarded by micro in a straight up fight.

Zerg also has the most unmicroable unit in the game: Zergling. It is so tiny, it moves so fast on creep and is so auto-smart that it is not humanly possible to react to it or target it. (Yes I know I am a rusty Diamond player and GSL players would just laugh their asses off at this statement. But I make this mod for human players, not for cyborgs >_< )

Bot honestly, when 50 tightly packed Zerglings attacks an army, what can a player do? Its a wave of death that either win or loses, no matter what a player does in those few seconds of combat. Yes, you can place spider mines, cast a nerve jammer, get firebats into position just before the Zergling wave surronds your army. Or you can storm it or blink away. But the battle itself have a low level of interaction. Even 10 Zealots vs 30 Zerglings is over so quickly. Maybe Zerg can back away with a few Zerglings to save them, or the Zealots can reposition themselves a little bit. But compare SC2 Zerglings with BW Zerglings on VODS or in a stream. You can actually react to BW Zerglings and controliing them actually matters in combat!

Anyways, many of these problems occur in SC2 too. But I feel that they are even worse in the Starbow context.



Zerg has no new toys

First of all, a lot of "fun" Zerg stuff has been nerfed in Starbow:

Larvas spawn slower.
Inject is weaker and must not be done.
Queen has a limit. (Which has both good and negative effects, in my opinion.)
No Roaches.
Fungal Growth do not deal damage, which takes away a key feature of the Infestor.
No Changeling or Contaminate.
Nydus was removed but it has recently been brought back...
Brood Lords spawned no Broodlings but they do again...

What have Zerg recieved that is fun to use?

- Scourges
- Lurkers
- Dark Swarm
- Almost all Zerg ground units can move slowly while burrowed.

Out of all this, Lurkers is most fun to use. Dark Swarm is messy and confusing. ("This works or not under it?")
Compare it to P and T who has gotten Spider mines, Wraiths, Irradiate, Reavers, Dark Archons, Arbiters, etc! They have even got more interactions with stuff they already had in the game: the decision between Warpgate/Gateway, Chrono boost cannons, Calldown SCV instead of Mule and so on..



Ok, so what can be done to make Zerg become fun?

Based on all this I have written above, (and I will ask you all to share your view on this matter) I have some thoughts on possible solutions. Lets start:


Flanking
If flaing mattered more for Zerg, it would add a unique racial feature that seperated Zerg from the other races. How can that be done?!

More dimensions in Zerg combat
If Zerg units would benefit more from being controlled, combats would feel less one-dimensional. How do we do that?

Overlord with creep spread must matter!

I have never understood why Blizzard added such a cool ability with only a limited purpose. I think there is room for more design in Overlords dropping creep. For the most part its a pointless ability right now. If the creep they dropped actually gave a bonus in combat, we would see scenarios were Zerg position their overlords smartly on the battlefield. If overlord creep spread made units under it regenerate life, gain armor or whatever, we would see the dynamics of Zerg retreating back to a overlord for support, just as Terran units backs to siege tanks for support, to gain a favorable position in combat

The Roach

The Roach in its current form solves nothing. But if it can become a unit with more depth then being the little brother of the hydralisk, it would be a benefit for the Zerg race.

Macro

Zerg macro do not feel unique or fun. We are adding BW macro to Zerg while still using SC2 mechanics. Its the same as macroing from mass gateways or mass barracks. Maybe the macro can be adjusted in some way to make Zerg macro feel more like... Zerg macro..

Queen must become a key unit for Zerg:
Its most important feature in Starbow is the ability to spread creep. Inject is ok, but not at all so important as in SC2. This causes the Queen to feel less useful now, while at the same time I have limited so players can only have a few, to make them feel more important! This does not make sense. If the Queen becomes important in some way than it currently is, it will be a swing for the Zerg race. Right now they are kinda redundant. They have less purpose here than in SC2.




Final question:

for those of you who actually read all text above, is it the Zerg race who has problem or is it me? O_o

On October 14 2012 11:59 Phoobie wrote:
I kinda agree with beef noodles, zerg needs a more dynamic mid game, and even late game, to make zerg more interesting.

you mention how engagements with zerg end so quickly one way or the other because the zerg swarm is sooo fast and efficient (which they should be!).

For now let's keep the Zergling and Hydraslisk as swarmy as they are but some things we may consider;

Increasing collision sizes: Increasing unit size and collision size increases the total surface area required to make the zerg army efficient to encourage flanks and encourage micro to get as many zerg units attacking as possible. not saying to make big lings and hydras, but a lil bigger may make a few hydra's and lings miss out of the action in an A-move situation.

Re-introduce the roach as a hatchery tech, 1 supply beefy, but short ranged, anti-light unit. Roaches in a fight tend to slow things down because their overall DPS is low and health is high, their short range also encourages some micro to make them more efficient. As the game progresses the roach should develop into a burrow based harassing unit. (I thought of a burrow charge ability (like the one for ultras in HOTS) that would allow a burrowed roach to charge to an area and pop from underground, able to jump cliffs! Great for flanks, ambushes and raiding enemy bases!)

Move the baneling to lair tech to make room for the roach, banelings give the tier 1 lings a real fast punch in the early game, pop go your zeolots and marines or my banelings and the fight is done. And while ling bling wars may be fun and high tension to watch I do not enjoy the game play were a single click can instantly decide the game (sc2 vortex hi!). It also follows the zerg's theme of constant evolution: speed at hatch, baneling at lair and adrenal gland at hive.

Give the Infestor, or a new unit with, abilities that have more impact on army engagements in the mid to late game so it creates that tug of war scenario of "gotta get this done but gotta dodge those storms/EMPs/Tanks at the same time"

I had just starting thinking of a new ability for the swarm guardian to replace frenzy, the theme of this unit seems to be army support by prevention, EX: Dark swarm prevents ranged damage, so I had thought of this:

Corrupted Mind (NNYF)
The Guardian sprays a neural toxin in target area that corrupts the mind, affected units deal 20% less damage and cannot activate abilities for X seconds.

I currently don't mind the zerg macro that much, but I haven't been playing this mode for that long either, I will play some more and think it over more to provide better feedback on the matter.

I don't think the problem is that the units are too fast, I think it's that the maps are too small and the bases are all too close together. We need maps like twice the size of the ones we currently have, with LONG travel distances between bases. This will stop players from expanding across the maps so fast and maxing out so quickly, and allow for more places to set up flanks and tactical maneuvers. It would also be the final nail in the coffin for deathball play. The idea that [more bases = more places to defend simultaneously = splitting forces] will only truly shine when those bases are far enough apart that you can't just move your army from your main to your fourth before raiding enemies can do significant damage.

I like the idea of Overlord creep drop having a measurable impact in engagements. Perhaps if, as well as a movement speed bonus, it also gave Zerg units a slight attack speed increase as well? This would have to be very carefully tuned to make it reasonable balance-wise but I think it's a good start. Other possibilities include creep draining HP from Mechanical units/structures in place of the death-and-decay spell that had been proposed. This would allow Overlords to slowly clear spider mines and force Siege Tanks out of position if they didn't have some anti-air backup. Have it not affect hovering units (Vultures, SCVs/Probes) or Protoss units/buildings with their shields intact. We could also restrict Zerg regeneration to ONLY taking place on creep but buff the regeneration rate.

I'm not opposed to Roaches making it back in the game but they absolutely need to be Lair tech and based around burrow-movement mechanics to stop them from overlapping with the Hydralisk again. I like the idea of cliff-jumping via some sort of burrow charge ability.

- Give Hydralisks a line AoE attack like Hellions/Lurkers that does reduced damage to each successive unit it hits . For example, 6(10)/4(6)/2(3) to the first three units in range. Flanking will make them more effective on the Zerg player's part, and splitting vs Hydras will reduce the potential damage on the opponent's. Also ties in with Mutalisk glave bounce, making Zerg ranged units have their own particular flavor. Might also fix Hydra's problem versus Mutas if they fire at a stack.

- Make Banelings slower, larger, more survivable (+ HP, Armor?) and possibly more expensive/powerful. This will make battles involving them last at least a little longer, encourage focus firing and micro on both ends.

- Make Zerglings weaker and more numerous. This will lengthen battles in which splash damage is not involved because the lings will kill things more slowly but take longer to die as there are more of them. Also with less damage per surface area you will get more out of your extra lings by sending them to attack other targets. Execution of this idea would probably be something like: Reduce HP from 35 to 25, reduce attack speed, increase lings per larvae from 2 to 3. It would also feel RIDICULOUSLY swarmy.