EPT[A] Starbow - Page 108
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
On October 12 2012 04:20 Laertes wrote: Hey guys, I can post again! I loved the two matches, and about PvZ and TvZ, I don't feel it is imbalanced at all. Remember the metagame is not always imbalanced just because it seems so. I would advise for now that we do not worry about balance. In addition, I feel that we should not add the thor back into the game, too many cooks in the factory tech makes the mech soup taste horrible. Honestly, terran has the firebat if it wants aoe, I honestly think Tank/Firebat is going to be incredibly strong so look into that. In addition to Tank/Firebat, lets brainstorm a few strategies that can kill zerg as terran. What would a tank firebat build look like? I gotta go, I'll talk later. How that would play out would be very gas heavy (Medic, Firebat, Siege tank) It would instantly lose to mutalisk (Even though it is uncommon). You would also have to turtle up. So suddenly it goes from a possible push to something the zerg can just roll with somewhat decent macro. Good idea, the anti-ling based. But please try to think that fully through. December thank you so much for casting all those games, wow. TvP in Starbow is looking to be an AMAZINGLY fun match-up, and god damn do I love seeing all this Reaver/Prism play. A few thoughts though: - I haven't seen anyone using Nexus Recall. Has it just been forgotten? - High Templar don't seem to have that time warping field spell I thought Kabel was planning to give them. Perhaps we should think about at least giving them back Hallucination so they don't only have one spell? - No Arbiters. They were a staple unit in BW TvP, I'd like to see them experimented with at least. - Lastly, Auto-turret on the SciVessel... it's just godawful to watch, we should really brainstorm a replacement spell for that thing. - Nexus recall I believe that this isn't used as it's intended role for two reasons. One, in the time it takes for the recall to occur, the units will take crippling, if not killing, damage. This generally negates any damage done by early pressure. Secondly, look at where this could be used. PvZ by the time they would have a good number of units out, the pressure would be able to be negated. Doing a run-by would result in too much damage to the units, not enough damage to the enemy. PvT, PvP, The couple of seconds it takes to teleport will kill the unit by the time it's worth using. - High Templar Hallucination wouldn't be used, as it would take from valuable storms. If you can come up with a good replacement I am sure it would be used. - Arbiters That was just us screwing up. We should have used them. -Autoturret Same as with High Temps. | ||
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
Thanks for the really well thought-out post. If we look at the games casted above, there are so many more unexplored areas that can determine that match up. Medics with Shield can protect marines vs reaver shots. Wraiths can chase Warp Prism and snipe observers to prevent P from moving into mine fields. If bio + tanks becomes a way to go in TvP, getting the super-bunker-upgrade can strengthen contains a lot. Firebats are a lot stronger here than in BW. (100 HP instead of 50) and might be a good way to fight vs Zealots. EMP and Lockdown with Ghosts can determine a lot of combats. Protoss on the other hand can use Corsair and Void Ray as early anti-tank units. Dark Archon with Maelstrom can stop bio. Void Shell can be a way to attack into contains. Arbiters still have Vortex. It can be a key spell to disable a huge clump of tanks. Recall on Nexus can be used for ways to save Reavers that are out of position or panic dropped from Warp Prismes. Your idea's on TvP I somewhat agree with. If we look at the bolded part, this is the part I have a very big trouble with. It is not effective for a terran to just "get wraiths." To clarify, this is how the TvP metagame on NA is: Bio, blink stalkers will a little micro should rip this to shreds. I do not believe this is OP, because as stated in the original post, terran should be mech-based. BioMech, or Marine Medic Tank. This is a common - and good - strategy assuming no reavers. The problem is reavers blowing up huge chunks of marines. While possible to play, it requires huge amounts of APM from the terran, compared to not nearly as much from the protoss. The last possibility is mech. This is the one that I have the best success with so far. To get a starport before a third base ( which is what would be needed) would result in a smaller army. especially if going BioMech. The wraith would serve only one purpose, to kill the shuttle. Suddenly you have a useless starport and wraith after this. If they just decide to use the reaver with the push, the wraith cannot do anything because the stalkers will be able to kill the wraith. It is a very large investment for a possibility of killing a small investment made by the protoss (One reaver/warp prism when the robo is already needed). I would like to wait a while, and if the reaver is still in the same state we can discuss changes possibly. | ||
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bole
Serbia164 Posts
@This is too much like BW It is very much like BW. Maybe more than I intended it to be. My core thought is to make SC2 as I wish it was made: A "follow up" to Brood War rather than a stand-alone-game. Maybe I am a bit nostalgic, but I do think that many of the units/spells in BW are more interesting and better for creating a interestind dynamic in the game. Terran is the race that is most like BW right now Everything is good and balanced ..but i agree it's too much as BW especially terrans... i think you should add medevac instead of medic to make terrans more mobile it will bring that mechanics that terram be more mobile in game.. Medivac can work as toss you can use Nexuses recall ability and warp gates stalkers blink vs drops... as zerg u use scourge hydras for defense.. i think it will bring more dynamics and mobility in terran gameplay... can you try out to mix out some medivac insted of medic in gamplay kabel ? answer plz  | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
I do think we could do more to change Terran up from the BW version, but Medivacs are not the correct solution. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
On October 12 2012 09:24 bole wrote: Everything is good and balanced ..but i agree it's too much as BW especially terrans... i think you should add medevac instead of medic to make terrans more mobile it will bring that mechanics that terram be more mobile in game.. Medivac can work as toss you can use Nexuses recall ability and warp gates stalkers blink vs drops... as zerg u use scourge hydras for defense.. i think it will bring more dynamics and mobility in terran gameplay... can you try out to mix out some medivac insted of medic in gamplay kabel ? answer plz If you read the first post, he states that Terran is not supposed to be the mobile bio army it is in Starcraft 2. Medivac lets this to happen. Also, medivac would not be used as much, unless you removed medic. If you removed medic, then you couldn't use marines until late game when marines are countered by a large amount of things. It just wouldn't make sense. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
Also, warpgates give you INSTANT units. That means you can assess the situation and make whatever units fit the situation best immediately. You don't have to guess which units you WILL need, as you do when you build out of the gateway. Furthermore, warpgates are WAY better for defense, as you can warp in immediately, even if you were caught off guard. I love the idea of warpgates, so I don't think they should be nerfed to oblivion, but there needs to be a macro advantage to the Gateway, which currently there is not. Watching Starbow matches, no offense, but the protoss players aren't really thinking. It would be MUCH stronger to use warpgates instead of gateways and just add more warpgates to overcome the 10 second cooldown difference that only slightly affects macro. As soon as people realize it, they will only use warpgates in Starbow once they pass the midgame and armies start moving around the map. I think something like a 20-25 second cooldown difference would really make the Gateway the "Macro option" we want it to be. Warpgates would be something you want 3-5 of mid game, and like 8 of late game for quick defense, slight (but immediate) reenforcement, and harass with warp prisim. I think that's what was intended in the beginning, but less than 20+ seconds is not nearly long enough to mitigate the advantage of warping. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 12 2012 13:11 Beef Noodles wrote: You have a big problem there. First of all, this game is more of eb and flow in TvP, so as soon as the reinforcing isn't happening at your opponents base you're stuck floating resources.So, taking the conversation in a different direction... I still think the difference between gateway and warpgate cooldowns needs to be larger (20+ seconds). The current difference isn't really large enough to make gateways useful (warpgate cooldown is only 10 seconds longer right?). The travel time from units coming out of gateways in your main takes away about 7 seconds anyway... and that's just if you want them to go to your nat. If you need them somewhere else on the map, it takes MUCH longer. Also, warpgates give you INSTANT units. That means you can assess the situation and make whatever units fit the situation best immediately. You don't have to guess which units you WILL need, as you do when you build out of the gateway. Furthermore, warpgates are WAY better for defense, as you can warp in immediately, even if you were caught off guard. I love the idea of warpgates, so I don't think they should be nerfed to oblivion, but there needs to be a macro advantage to the Gateway, which currently there is not. Watching Starbow matches, no offense, but the protoss players aren't really thinking. It would be MUCH stronger to use warpgates instead of gateways and just add more warpgates to overcome the 10 second cooldown difference that only slightly affects macro. As soon as people realize it, they will only use warpgates in Starbow once they pass the midgame and armies start moving around the map. I think something like a 20-25 second cooldown difference would really make the Gateway the "Macro option" we want it to be. Warpgates would be something you want 3-5 of mid game, and like 8 of late game for quick defense, slight (but immediate) reenforcement, and harass with warp prisim. I think that's what was intended in the beginning, but less than 20+ seconds is not nearly long enough to mitigate the advantage of warping. More warp gates? So you are trying to lose your battles on purpose by investing in unnecessary production? A few zealots can really mean the difference. Here is how inefficient warps are, you can support 6 of them off one base without a problem. Another advantage is people don't have perfect macro cycles for warp ins. Yet another, as soon as your warp prism and proxy pylon are killed you have to immediately switch to gates or you are losing reinforcement time (you are already losing lots of production time unless you spent more money in production). There is already so much pressure to use gates that in actual games we only see them used in conjunction with proxy pylons, warp prisms, and snap defense. Its always amusing to see a base full of warps and floating 1.2k mins. They really don't need a nerf. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
Utilising both warpgates and gateways at different times of each game gives the better player a chance to pull ahead. If a person who is not macroing well is floating a lot of money, they can compensate for that by adding more warpgates, if that is how they want to approach the problem. In the games I have seen and played, we have basically just stuck with gateways throughout the whole match. Granted I am relatively new to Starbow, but once you get used to queuing units in gateways versus habits of warpin cycles, warpgate is not that missed. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
What level are you? | ||
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
 ........... i even thought i was better than him when i was 2-1 against his T but alas, his zerg is perfect | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On October 12 2012 14:00 purakushi wrote: Sorry, I'm not meaning queuing as in queuing 2+ units on a production facility, I'm just meaning how gateways/barracks work versus warpgates (instant). Anyway, diamond here, but I do not think league means too much. Not like we have any tiptop master/GM/professional players. Yes, I think we all are trying to make a fun, balanced, and competitive game. What level are you? Back when I actually played more than once every three months, I was mid Masters. But that would take me a couple weeks, maybe a month to get back to that level. Anyway, barely play cause of work. I'd say I'm probably diamond now | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
On October 12 2012 13:11 Beef Noodles wrote: So, taking the conversation in a different direction... I still think the difference between gateway and warpgate cooldowns needs to be larger (20+ seconds). The current difference isn't really large enough to make gateways useful (warpgate cooldown is only 10 seconds longer right?). The travel time from units coming out of gateways in your main takes away about 7 seconds anyway... and that's just if you want them to go to your nat. If you need them somewhere else on the map, it takes MUCH longer. Also, warpgates give you INSTANT units. That means you can assess the situation and make whatever units fit the situation best immediately. You don't have to guess which units you WILL need, as you do when you build out of the gateway. Furthermore, warpgates are WAY better for defense, as you can warp in immediately, even if you were caught off guard. I love the idea of warpgates, so I don't think they should be nerfed to oblivion, but there needs to be a macro advantage to the Gateway, which currently there is not. Watching Starbow matches, no offense, but the protoss players aren't really thinking. It would be MUCH stronger to use warpgates instead of gateways and just add more warpgates to overcome the 10 second cooldown difference that only slightly affects macro. As soon as people realize it, they will only use warpgates in Starbow once they pass the midgame and armies start moving around the map. I think something like a 20-25 second cooldown difference would really make the Gateway the "Macro option" we want it to be. Warpgates would be something you want 3-5 of mid game, and like 8 of late game for quick defense, slight (but immediate) reenforcement, and harass with warp prisim. I think that's what was intended in the beginning, but less than 20+ seconds is not nearly long enough to mitigate the advantage of warping. If something is done to increase the difference between gateway and warpgate, it shall be a straight buff to gateway. Currently, Starbow's gateways are really bad because they produce units at the same rate than SC2's gateway while gateway aren't the "standard" way to produce unit in SC2 (warpgate are). It mean that compared to SC2, all units have an additionals 5 seconds build time (when built in the "standard" way). By the way, warpgate aren't WAY better for defense. If you are caught of guard, you can have instant reinforcement with the recall ability of the Nexus. And warpgate doesn't give you instant units... they give you instant unit if they are not on cooldown (and they shall be if you are on top of your macro). | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I agree that Nexus recall takes too long to teleport units. They often die before they are returned to safety. I will look at this in the editor. I will have a new patch up soon, with mostly small changes. Regarding TvP: I usually try to avoid to speculate too much whether a certain build or unit composition is viable in a match-up or not. I leave that up to players to discover. I try to create a good foundation for the game, and I make adjustments when there seems to be no way (or a very narrow way) to counter a specific build or type of units. I´ve been certain many times that things have been badly balanced and impossible to overcome. "There is no way to handle that scenario. I must change the units!!!" Then players on EU find out creative ways to counter it and I have to eat my words. But I do not think that an early Starport must be a dead investment whos only purpose is to counter the Reaver. You can still use the Starport for a fast Dropship of Vessels with Nerve Jammer, which both can do devestating things to Protoss if used properly in the early midgame. (Defending vs 4 Vultures with spider mines inside the P base at the 7-8 minute mark is very painful for P .. T_T) But of course, if it turns out Terran have major problems to handle reavers, and nothing really works for them, things will be adjusted. So it´s good that you bring the discussion here so more players can shed light on the problem and share their experience @Medivacs instead of Dropships Medivac can work as toss you can use Nexuses recall ability and warp gates stalkers blink vs drops... as zerg u use scourge hydras for defense.. i think it will bring more dynamics and mobility in terran gameplay... can you try out to mix out some medivac insted of medic in gamplay kabel ? answer plz The Medivac is a fine unit. But the Dropship and the Medivac have a huge different impact on the gameplay. I want positsional play to matter and be important in Starbow. How does the Medivac contribute to that? Well, it does not. Medivac allows for mobility AND brute strength. It strengthens your army in a fight and if you encounter enemy defences, you can just fly your army past it. Wave goodbye to the well positioned lurkers on the ground. Fly past the mine field and the siege tanks below. Never mind the tricky Protoss player who has smartly blocked off a small ramp with 2 gateways and 2 cannons. It does not matter if Zerg casts Dark Swarm on a choke point to defend with a small army vs a larger Terran army. You can pick up your entire army and just give the finger to the terrain! Yihaaa! Don´t get me wrong now. Players shall obviously have ways to get around enemy defences. Imagine Starcraft without any way to drop units! But mobility shall be an option. Players can choose to spend precious resources on mobiliy, if they prefer that play style and want that advantage in the game. Terran can get 5-6 Dropships and fly around with his army. That is perfectly fine. But if he spends so much resources on it, his army will not be as strong. Medivac makes your army strong both in terms of mobility and in a fight. Its like a flying Medic... It makes your marines even more badass in a fight, and if that isn´t enough, just fly into the enemy base... O_o Obviously there are positive aspects of the Medivac too. But considering my current understanding the Medivac and Dropship has on the gameplay, I do prefer the old-school Dropship. Until someone proves me wrong or gives me good reasons. @Warp gates Hm. Right now I think the advantages and disadvantages with the different gates feels ok. It might not be perfect. Maybe Warp Gates always are better. I will give players more time to experiment with it before I change anything. @ZvP ZvP on EU seems to favor Z a lot, for various reasons. But I will explore it further before anything is changed. (Maybe its just Danko who is OP.. ) | ||
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