On October 11 2012 09:37 bole wrote: Look kabel m8 ... there is a problem... you have SC2 and BW protoss and zerg and Bw terran...
terran have problem vs zealots immortals and phoenix (crosair) as i can see from this few games..
there is no proper conter to them atm... i see maby goliath to be good vs crosair ? or immortals with his atc dont activate immortal shilds... for zealots you need to bring hellions (blue flame atc) + spider mines (hellion to have both)
i like to see unite to conter zealots good and immortals simply Spells cant fix gameplay it will brake it if you dont have proper unite conter...
its not good and cost efective to went from factory to baracs to be able to conter immortals made marines or corsair... that is problem in gameplay that i see... i think factory unites need to have that ability...without marines...(marines die fast combined with mech simply you dont have resorces to spend on mass medics to support then,,,
thx for reading hope i help you to see where is the problem...
What server are you on? That could be a lot of the problems. Most of the problems your listing are just countered by the good ole' strategy of just making basic mech units and killing them.
Haha thx m8 for advice... i am not playing atm.. i stady economics 2 exam and i am done. . finished.. i will play this game when i come at my hometown ... I am so excited about it simply like SC3 come out.. when i find out about this game..
this game is like SC2 should look when it come out..2010.. i just watch games for now and i noticing some thing.. zealots in every game is hard for terran to handle ...also immortals ...so i think buff some terran staf but not braking gampelay vs zerg...
also i dont see nothig new about terran except PF ...and that is it.. nerve gamer its great but not that much..new..
I think medivac are good for gamplay or repers combined with mech for harasment ( MID late Game) Something new for terran its BW terran we need to be creative.. . thx for reading...
December thank you so much for casting all those games, wow. TvP in Starbow is looking to be an AMAZINGLY fun match-up, and god damn do I love seeing all this Reaver/Prism play.
A few thoughts though: - I haven't seen anyone using Nexus Recall. Has it just been forgotten? - High Templar don't seem to have that time warping field spell I thought Kabel was planning to give them. Perhaps we should think about at least giving them back Hallucination so they don't only have one spell? - No Arbiters. They were a staple unit in BW TvP, I'd like to see them experimented with at least. - Lastly, Auto-turret on the SciVessel... it's just godawful to watch, we should really brainstorm a replacement spell for that thing.
On October 11 2012 13:45 SmileZerg wrote: December thank you so much for casting all those games, wow. TvP in Starbow is looking to be an AMAZINGLY fun match-up, and god damn do I love seeing all this Reaver/Prism play.
A few thoughts though: - I haven't seen anyone using Nexus Recall. Has it just been forgotten? - High Templar don't seem to have that time warping field spell I thought Kabel was planning to give them. Perhaps we should think about at least giving them back Hallucination so they don't only have one spell? - No Arbiters. They were a staple unit in BW TvP, I'd like to see them experimented with at least. - Lastly, Auto-turret on the SciVessel... it's just godawful to watch, we should really brainstorm a replacement spell for that thing.
Agreed. I really miss Arbiters recalling around the map. I also sighed when I saw auto turret. It is such a bad spell and not starcraft-y (for lack of a better word). Sci Vessel doesn't have to have irradiate, but it should have a spell that fits better into the idea of starcraft.
On October 11 2012 13:45 SmileZerg wrote: December thank you so much for casting all those games, wow. TvP in Starbow is looking to be an AMAZINGLY fun match-up, and god damn do I love seeing all this Reaver/Prism play.
A few thoughts though: - I haven't seen anyone using Nexus Recall. Has it just been forgotten? - High Templar don't seem to have that time warping field spell I thought Kabel was planning to give them. Perhaps we should think about at least giving them back Hallucination so they don't only have one spell? - No Arbiters. They were a staple unit in BW TvP, I'd like to see them experimented with at least. - Lastly, Auto-turret on the SciVessel... it's just godawful to watch, we should really brainstorm a replacement spell for that thing.
i used nexus recall till the hydra buff. templar do have that spell but it doesnt really seem worth using personally i think gaurdian shield would be better or something similar. arbiters have had all their good spells removed. i also think auto turret is bad.
On October 11 2012 09:59 decemberscalm wrote: Three matches between Freeze and Horus, I did another cast that's still uploading (fun base race between me and Freeze when he was still getting familiar with the match up).
Enjoy!
Thanks for casting these. Game 3 was definitely the best.
Would be awesome if you guys would organize a KOTH Starbow tournament one of these days. Set aside a night to have people battle for a few hours, see who comes out on top.
That would help show off the mod bigtime. The more I watch these games, the more it is obvious how much more strategic and interesting these matches have the potential to be.
No offense to Blizzard - but this mod shows where they pretty much dropped the ball with SC2. In a lot of areas. its just plain better competitively
On October 11 2012 13:32 NeoGeoOdin wrote: sorry for my noob question
I see that you make changes every bit, so i wonder, how much is that diferent, the OP to the current stage?
A fair amount has changed since the OP was made. Most of the information in the pictures and videos there are not up to date. I think there is some effort to compile a list of features in Starbow, though. I suggest you just play and find out yourself If you have any particular questions, I am sure many of us would be happy to answer. I am new myself, and I have found the community to be quite helpful.
On October 11 2012 13:45 SmileZerg wrote: December thank you so much for casting all those games, wow. TvP in Starbow is looking to be an AMAZINGLY fun match-up, and god damn do I love seeing all this Reaver/Prism play.
A few thoughts though: - I haven't seen anyone using Nexus Recall. Has it just been forgotten? - High Templar don't seem to have that time warping field spell I thought Kabel was planning to give them. Perhaps we should think about at least giving them back Hallucination so they don't only have one spell? - No Arbiters. They were a staple unit in BW TvP, I'd like to see them experimented with at least. - Lastly, Auto-turret on the SciVessel... it's just godawful to watch, we should really brainstorm a replacement spell for that thing.
i used nexus recall till the hydra buff. templar do have that spell but it doesnt really seem worth using personally i think gaurdian shield would be better or something similar. arbiters have had all their good spells removed. i also think auto turret is bad.
Arbiters as such shouldn't be ported over, especially considering stasis in PvT would make breaking tank lines/nests so much easier, although it'd be nice to see it as a cloaking/recalling unit - recall per se could be devastating when used properly, so it would require a lot of attention, but as this sort of an air field supporter complementing Science Vessel I'd love to see it implemented back. Immortals seem strong as hell, but I haven't played enough games against zealot/mortal yet to judge. If anything, if they happen to be too powerful, reducing range to pre-buff vanilla state could force a few stalkers into the mix to snipe Nerve Jammers.
About guardian shields for Templars and Auto-Turrets, I find both of those ideas atrocious, as both are 'click, sit back and relax' kind of spells and those are surely not in the spirit of Starcraft. Cheap hallucinations or ones that deal like 10% damage once you unlock the tech and some sort of ally supporting spell for SciVe, as an alternative to the jammer, would fit much better I feel.
On October 11 2012 09:59 decemberscalm wrote: Three matches between Freeze and Horus, I did another cast that's still uploading (fun base race between me and Freeze when he was still getting familiar with the match up).
Thanks for casting these. Game 3 was definitely the best.
Would be awesome if you guys would organize a KOTH Starbow tournament one of these days. Set aside a night to have people battle for a few hours, see who comes out on top.
That would help show off the mod bigtime. The more I watch these games, the more it is obvious how much more strategic and interesting these matches have the potential to be.
No offense to Blizzard - but this mod shows where they pretty much dropped the ball with SC2. In a lot of areas. its just plain better competitively
Great work guys keep it up
I do believe Kabel wants to withhold all tournaments' ideas until the mod is balanced/developed in terms of strategy enough for people not to feel at a disadvantage from the very start in some matchups, although some nightly tourneys would be lovely.
Also, my personal request to people - don't make a huge deal out of the mod yet. Promotion is fine, but from my experience, an overhype is quite common amongst gamers and I'd rather see the playerbase growing slowly, but steadily, instead of it booming and dying rapidly. I'm probably hysterical about it, but I've been enjoying playing the mod greatly lately and would love to see it become popular when it's done.
TvP was fine a couple updates back when arbiter had that big aoe thing, i still think protoss was at a disadvantage. People in this thread seriously seem to overestimate how good immortals actually are in starbow, their pretty damn expensive with a big shield nerf compared to the damage buff on siege tanks.
On October 11 2012 01:27 ArkussSC2 wrote: Fighting Spirit is a great map for this, just needs more time to adapt. It's a lot like Antiga Shipyard in the sense that after your fast 3 bases, where you decide to take your 4th determines how the late game will go. Not every map should have your 2-5 bases laid out in order , should require some thought on some maps and fighting spirit provides that. Only thing I don't like is that it's not forced cross spawns. All maps should be forced cross, just my opinion though.
The difference is that with Antiga, the third is very easily defended by anything. A mech player, or a turtling player of any kind is able to secure it without needed a huge supply advantage. For Fighting Spirit, the third is very distant, and the ramp tiny. This promotes counter attacks and leaves the meching player without any option but to go for a 2 base all-in. This is especially pointed out by the silly 1000 mineral fields. ( I will go into detail below). So all in all, it would lead to a very all-innish map, and not played on nearly as much as Sacred Sands.
About 1000 mineral fields, and to an extent, 3000 gas geysers. As stated by Kabel in the first post on the front page, he feels that Terran should be one of those very "my territory" races. This leads to mobility decreased, and the power of siege tanks increasing. He is basically saying that mech and to an extent, biomech, is the ideal situation for Terran. I have no problem with this.
What 1000 mineral fields, and 3000 gas geysers as saying is; you have to expand. You have to or you will die. This means you have to be mobile. You have to be able to defend those bases. Zerg is able to do this, they have movement boosting creep spread, the have some of the fastest units in the game, and their entire army is based off mobility.
With the introduction of the non-splash planetary (Or the planetary that actually can't defend against anything past 1 zergling or a zealot) and making Terran unable to play mech, and unable to play bio. Terran just gets to do a ton of damage off two bases. They better hope that had practically won from there because past that they will be at a disadvantage.
If you do not agree with me, and are able to get on NA. I would prefer to discuss it over there as I don't frequent the forums here.
Interesting point. I do understand why Kabel reduced the amount of minerals per patch compared to BW or SC2 but I agree with you that it hurts Terran (in both matchup) and Protoss (in PvZ) more than Zerg. Expanding all over the map is one of the main characteristic of Zerg and having less minerals per patch doesn't really hurt their economy. But Terran and Protoss cannot take an early third vs Zerg because they really need some some high tech units to defend against Zerg's aggression. By the time they have enough units to take and defend a third, their main is almost mined out. It means that Terran and Protoss have to quickly expand to keep their "2 bases economy" instead of quickly expand to match the "3 or 4 bases economy" of Zerg...
Von we do koth quite often when we have a lot of people online. Not necessarily a tournament per say but we do have koth for fun usually for an hour or longer depending how many people are on and stay on.
@freeze As it stands fighting spirit may not be the best map now for the reasons you said but I think there's a lot more changes to be made and we will see an increase in the minerals as suggested. after that's done this map will be another great map to the pool. I watch a lot of broodwar streams , some players as high as b- and a-. what terrains do on this map is leave a few tanks sieged at expansions at the third and fourth as well as a turret and some mines to help defend. terran needs to be the aggressor on this map and when their aggression fails that's when panic mode kicks in and the expansions are at risk, same would go for starbow. fighting spirit has some wild bw matches and star bow can have the same
I have been a bit inactive at the forums lately. Too much stuff going on in school and at work : /
But I will try to answear some of your concerns/questions/thoughts. Lets start with the smaller ones first:
@The new casts
Great as always december!
@The front page
The front page looks like a mess. I will clear that up. But since the Zerg race is not "completed" yet, I will not update the opening post until I am satisfied with what I can write there. @PvT
If we look at the games casted above, there are so many more unexplored areas that can determine that match up. Medics with Shield can protect marines vs reaver shots. Wraiths can chase Warp Prism and snipe observers to prevent P from moving into mine fields. If bio + tanks becomes a way to go in TvP, getting the super-bunker-upgrade can strengthen contains a lot. Firebats are a lot stronger here than in BW. (100 HP instead of 50) and might be a good way to fight vs Zealots. EMP and Lockdown with Ghosts can determine a lot of combats.
Protoss on the other hand can use Corsair and Void Ray as early anti-tank units. Dark Archon with Maelstrom can stop bio. Void Shell can be a way to attack into contains. Arbiters still have Vortex. It can be a key spell to disable a huge clump of tanks. Recall on Nexus can be used for ways to save Reavers that are out of position or panic dropped from Warp Prismes.
TvP seems to be the funniest and most interesting match up so far!
@ Tournaments
I think its good that the scene is slowly growing since there are so much more work to do with the MOD. If this became "big" and gained a lot of attention, people would probably get tired soon because of all unfinished areas and balance. Later on, once this gets better, tournaments might be hosted and more "advertising" can be done : )
@Mineral patches having only 1000 resources instead of 1500
The economy has been a disputed subject during the course of development. I try to create a game where players need more bases. They can not sit comfortably on 3 bases and max out. There are two basic ways of doing so:
1) Bases generates less maximum income. 2) Bases dry out quicker.
If you look at BW streams or VODs, P and T rarely use more bases than 2 or 3 at a time and then macros hard from it. They might not reach 200/200 as fast, but that is partly because there are no MULES, no Chrono Boost or Inject larva in BW to further speed up macro. So I would argue that we see the same economic tendencies in both BW and SC2, just that SC2 is more extreme.
Must that be bad? No. But I think it would be even better for the gameplay if bases and territory mattered even more. If we want an economy to require many bases, each base must have a low maximum income. And that is frustrating since it slows up the early game and the pace of development. Earlier I´ve had that 5-6 bases in Starbow gives as much income as 3 bases in SC2. Players just had to expand expand expand in every game cause they had resources for nothing else. And that was not fun. (It was like this for ca 6-8 weeks ago.)
Instead, by making bases last shorter, that sets a pressure on players. Out to secure the map! The winter is coming, you need shelter from the storm! Starvation is a good spark in any fight. So far I think this have lead to more expansions being grabbed and we see a fight over resources. Not necessarily are more bases used at the same time. But it does not really matter since it still forces an area control for players. They can not sit back on 3-4 bases and win the game from that position. The first PvT in the series casted above shows an example of that. Only 25-30 minutes in the game are huge areas of the map being taken that would not have mattered otherwise. (The game now forces them to expand more, since they run dry on resources at their early expansions)
But obviously this might not be a perfect solution or perfect values. I am aware that this might favor Zerg heavily, since they expand a lot anyways. P and T now need to expand a lot too. But if P and T are at a disadvantage, I can either: 1) Increase the amount of minerals per mineral patch 2) Give tools to T and P so they can defend better, hence they can expand safer. 3) Use maps in the map pool that makes it easier to defend expansions.
@This is too much like BW
It is very much like BW. Maybe more than I intended it to be. My core thought is to make SC2 as I wish it was made: A "follow up" to Brood War rather than a stand-alone-game. Maybe I am a bit nostalgic, but I do think that many of the units/spells in BW are more interesting and better for creating a interestind dynamic in the game. Terran is the race that is most like BW right now.
Lets look at some possibilities: Banshee - Wraith Banshees have an edge in TvT since they are a stronger air-to-ground unit. But Wraiths adds more flexibility, is faster, allows for more micro (hit-and-run) and can be used for both harassment, anti-air and anti-ground. (Even though its rather weak at the last) And it is an important unit for chasing Warp Prisms with Reavers inside and Swarm Guardians, compared to the slow Vikings.
Thor - Goliath Despite how hated the Thor is, I think the unit has potential. It has an unique body (no unit is so large), anti-air splash from ground, slow and super tanky. And it looks cool when loaded in a dropship. Goliath on the other hand was added mainly because of the Carrier - Goliath interaction/dance. Since I made Carriers more microable, Thors could not really fight them so well. And Goliaths are more microable than Thors are. And I think it is important that units can become much better with proper micro. Which is not really the case with Thors and Colossus in Sc2 : /
Hellion - Vulture Well.. Its quite obvious isn´t it?
If you liked the cast, major props to Freeze and Horus for displaying such a good show. That is what happens when we have two players of such high caliber play matches. Unless either of them decide to cheese (which is reeeeallly weak in starbow from what I can tell) games usually last on an average of 20-30 minutes.
Tournament isn't really the best idea right now, we haven't even figured out ZvP and ZvT. The games where T and P manage to kill Z is where they have pressure the entire game long, 2 rax fe and 2 gate fe at the start seems almost required to stop Z from having a superior position by the time the FE even finishes. We've been throwing one or two fire bats in with the small pushes because Z can both go heavy eco and shove out masses of lings at the same time.
I don't think its unbeatable or necessarily op, but at its current stage it certainly doesn't feel like a fair match up.
It is very much like BW. Maybe more than I intended it to be. My core thought is to make SC2 as I wish it was made: A "follow up" to Brood War rather than a stand-alone-game. Maybe I am a bit nostalgic, but I do think that many of the units/spells in BW are more interesting and better for creating a interestind dynamic in the game. Terran is the race that is most like BW right now.
Everything is good and balanced ..but i agree it's too much as BW especially terrans...
i think you should add medevac instead of medic to make terrans more mobile it will bring that mechanics that terram be more mobile in game..
Medivac can work as toss you can use Nexuses recall ability and warp gatesstalkers blink vs drops... as zerg u use scourgehydras for defense.. i think it will bring more dynamics and mobility in terran gameplay...
Thor - Goliath Despite how hated the Thor is, I think the unit has potential. It has an unique body (no unit is so large), anti-air splash from ground, slow and super tanky. And it looks cool when loaded in a dropship. Goliath on the other hand was added mainly because of the Carrier - Goliath interaction/dance. Since I made Carriers more microable, Thors could not really fight them so well. And Goliaths are more microable than Thors are. And I think it is important that units can become much better with proper micro. Which is not really the case with Thors and Colossus in Sc2 : /
dont bring thor make goliath as little thor ( to have splash air dps) ... and give vikings(can lend and can be use for harasment mid game as mech army ) role of goliath ... that will change gameplay two or just try out..
try out i think it will be great Thx for reading ..
I can understand the mineral issue after playing more and more. I think if were going to have a game focused on expanding for income and macro, we need larger maps with way more bases. Maps like oakshire and breaking point are too small for a mass expand style of play.
Thor can be added to the mod if its supply cost is greatly increased, that way there's no turtle Thor max alll in push.Thor is extrmeley Tammy and stops mass ling bling from zerg if that zerg is just an a mover. Forces more handling micro from zerg if he doesn't wanna waste 20 blings on 1 unit
Hours and freeze are argueably na's top two players, they never fail to deliver
On October 12 2012 00:20 ArkussSC2 wrote: Thor can be added to the mod if its supply cost is greatly increased, that way there's no turtle Thor max alll in push.Thor is extrmeley Tammy and stops mass ling bling from zerg if that zerg is just an a mover. Forces more handling micro from zerg if he doesn't wanna waste 20 blings on 1 unit
Just an idea - you could make them hard to acquire and make 250mm Strike Cannons an AoE, denying areas in combat even further.
EPT
i will play this game when i come at my hometown ... I am so excited about it simply like SC3 come out.. when i find out about this game.. 
