Introduction: If any of you remember my first map, Bel'Shir Walkway, you might recognize that the map and base layout are similar for Scars. I took into account the pros and cons from bel'shir walkway and I decided to expand on it and make it a little bigger. And so I created Scars. This is a overhaul, upgraded version of bel'shir walkway with a similar layout, but more bases and more open paths to go through.
Replay Pack: (from original layout, will get ones from scars of aiur soon)... mostly diamond and masters. I play a couple matches as well. + Show Spoiler +
Size: 136x136 playable Textures: Aiur Players: 2 Bases: 12 (2 gold) Rush Distance: 43 seconds from ramp to ramp
-There is one Xel'naga watch tower in the center, but there are paths to sneak around it. -There is also LOS in the 9 and 3 bases at the door to prevent easy, instant exposure.
All testing, tips, feedback, and criticisms are welcome!
Can you make analyzer pics ? (If you don't have the program go get it, it's very usefull to benchmark your maps)
I think gold expo would be better on lowground instead of highground, and maybe add an highground path on the coast beetween 9' and 7', and LoSB on the attack paths :
I have the analyzer program. I've spent all day trying to figure it out (I have read several ways of trying to do it) and i just can't figure it out. Mabye i'm just dumb lol.
I Like the LOS wall in the center area. I will definitely take that in consideration, seeing that the middle bases are too exposed as of right now.
I need to ask however, what is the purpose of the high ground idea?
Hmmm, interesting ideas, fenX... I'm not sure I see the purpose of them though.
What I do now notice is that there seems to be a lack of attack paths through the middle, and they are all very close. I think it would be better to have some paths a little further out from the middle, but this space is fairly occupied by expos.
I don't think the middle is too "cramped" like you mention Gfire. Each choke in and around the middle are wide and large enough for zerg surrounds, but are also liable for protoss and terran armies as well. I think it's a relatively good size overall.
I could however remove some of the trees along the strips in the center to open it up a little more.
I don't mean that they aren't wide enough, just they are are all concentrated near the center. That is, there isn't a great opportunity for counter attacks and center control might be too important.
Perhaps if you cleared some of the outside trees, you could add more trees or gaps between the paths and the center high ground, making them slightly farther apart.
I do think they are wide enough, they look about the size as the lanes on meta, that should be good.
I am wondering, how far does the watchtower reach and how far can tanks reach from the high ground in the center?
On May 18 2011 15:33 IronManSC wrote:I need to ask however, what is the purpose of the high ground idea?
I don't like expansion with only one entrance (except main ofc), it feels bad both to defend and to attack.
Let's say you are blue (terran) in that situation, your army control the center and you take the 9' expansion. Red (zerg) then send a small army to attack it, you send your army to defend but your workers have no way to escape and all die before your army get there, you successfuly defend your exp building at the cost of all your workers there but red can now go kill your third, leaving you no mining base up and forcing you to go all-in with your army. If you have that escape route I suggested you can at least save your workers.
Once again you are blue and you see red trying to secretly take the 9' expansion, you send your army to deny it, but it was a trap ! Red's army attack you from behind, your forces are trapped in that little pocket expansion and all die. If only they had an escape route some of them could have retreated to your base.
Not sure if that kind of scenarios are realistic, maybe not the best choices for expansions, but anyway it wouldn't hurt to have that option. As for why make it highground : you don't have much space to work there, it's already the border of the map, separating a path using different ground levels takes less spaces than separating with a hole between 2 path on the same level.
Well, you could also solve my problem by making the addition, a new path from the isolated expo to the expo by the main... Perhaps the whole 9' base could be put on the high ground and a ramp with rocks could be added.
In this case the 9' would more likely be taken by the north player (3' by the south).
I like it especially that it should be played different with different races. (zerg will be more likely to expand away, while T would expand to the middle. only thing Im concerned with is the gold base. it seems a little too easy to take imo (at least if you play vs zerg)
am i the only one who thinks the map is fine the way it is right now and doesn't need any changes? currently you pretty much need to control the xnt and have 2 scouting units at the side paths if you want to avoid an army sneaking into your half of the map unnoticed. i don't think you require more attack paths than that. i also don't have a problem with armies getting trapped at the side expansions. should have made sure you know you can win the battle before you attacked there, or know at least know where your opponent ist at
On May 18 2011 15:33 IronManSC wrote:I need to ask however, what is the purpose of the high ground idea?
I don't like expansion with only one entrance (except main ofc), it feels bad both to defend and to attack.
Let's say you are blue (terran) in that situation, your army control the center and you take the 9' expansion. Red (zerg) then send a small army to attack it, you send your army to defend but your workers have no way to escape and all die before your army get there, you successfuly defend your exp building at the cost of all your workers there but red can now go kill your third, leaving you no mining base up and forcing you to go all-in with your army. If you have that escape route I suggested you can at least save your workers.
Once again you are blue and you see red trying to secretly take the 9' expansion, you send your army to deny it, but it was a trap ! Red's army attack you from behind, your forces are trapped in that little pocket expansion and all die. If only they had an escape route some of them could have retreated to your base.
Not sure if that kind of scenarios are realistic, maybe not the best choices for expansions, but anyway it wouldn't hurt to have that option. As for why make it highground : you don't have much space to work there, it's already the border of the map, separating a path using different ground levels takes less spaces than separating with a hole between 2 path on the same level.
As terran you'll never expand that far away from your other bases because you're that immobile. So example one isn't legit. I also think that you won't get trapped at a sneaked expo there because you won't move in with you full army (send a small force and leave the rest outside awaiting the rescue force of your opponent - counter trap).
I agree on the LoSBs added close to the mid but currently i wouldn't add that passage you suggest. Imagine tanks up there will small forces engage your HY / bottom expo.
So i would say the map is fine and currently might only need small tweaks. GJ btw Ironman. Your best map so far
On May 18 2011 17:33 lefix wrote: am i the only one who thinks the map is fine the way it is right now and doesn't need any changes?
I think it's fine, I just threw some ideas, may be worth trying, may not.
On May 18 2011 17:55 dezi wrote: As terran you'll never expand that far away from your other bases because you're that immobile. So example one isn't legit.
If you siege your army at the center XNT (wich is good for terran) that expansion is the closest. Anyway the point is your workers have no way to escape when you expand there.
On May 18 2011 17:55 dezi wrote:I also think that you won't get trapped at a sneaked expo there because you won't move in with you full army (send a small force and leave the rest outside awaiting the rescue force of your opponent - counter trap).
Same problem then, the rescue force has no escape route if there's a counter trap, unless you have another force waiting for a counter-counter-trap.
Is the map on NA or on EU ? (tried to open it in the editor from EU but didn't find it, so I guess it's either locked or on other server)
The map is on NA (I don't know how to put it on EU unfortunately), unless I can trust a pro, popular map maker here to put it on EU or mabye another server as well.
It's also worth mentioning, that at the 9 and 3 o'clock bases, there is small high ground next to it. It is pathable for siege tanks, thors, colossi, or whatever else. Only siege tanks are able to hit a nexus/hatchery/CC from there. The rest can hit a few workers, a geyser, and mabye static defense.
@dezi: Thanks! I think it is my best map, compared to Bel'Shir Walkway and Bel'Shir Highlands, where I completely overdid it on the layout and textures (and not using bel'shir tile set for once lol). I decided to just make something more simple without thinking about it too much.
This map is similar to bel'shir walkway, but much bigger, and I think it's worth another try to submit it to the map competition in a month or so
I've had several tests done and a diamond random noted that for whatever race, the 3rd (whether in the corner or in the middle) is a bit too hard to take and is too risky. This may cause zerg to stay on 2-base for quite some time, and make terran a little immobile regardless of which one they take. Also the idea of replacing the LOSB at the 9 and 3 bases with destructible rocks.
In this variation it's easier to hold the third so long as you block the back hallway. I think it would work best with the gold set a level below, but playing with the surrounding terrain may make it work as a high-ground too.
The problem with a high-ground gold, though, is that terran can make more effective use of the high ground with siege tanks. Being so far from the base, however, if they try to take it too soon they can be punished.
Just a thought, hope it helps. Always remember to be thinking of where the player must position his army to defend the third. It most cases it shouldn't be a perfect defense, unless it's a macro map. Xel'Naga is a perfect example of how to balance. Attacks can through the back hallway or through the un-blocked ramp of the sunken third, but defense is also doable as well.
EDIT: one benifit to keeping the gold high-ground, is that a bold player can shoot down the back-hallway defenses from the safety of the high-ground if the defender does not secure the gold platform. It would add a small measure of volatility by creating a high-risk high-reward attack possibility.
One problem is that you are forced to secure the gold platform to prevent SCV kills from the highground. One option is to block the ramp on the enemy attack path to with destructible rocks, allowing players to take a swift third, but forcing them to hold map control to retain the third later on. Maybe that would work?
Hope the new design sparks some creativity, in either case. I like the map.
Definitely a wonderful consideration Foxy! I've been very skeptical of the those bases and have been trying to figure out a better solution. I will keep this in mind.
Hmmm... I still say you should move the more central third towards the natural somewhat (pushing the main back to make room, altering natural mineral placement to have good ramp-nat relationship and having the ramp move a bit,) and bridge it to the 3'/9' with rocks. And I think the 3'/9' should be on the high ground.
I really am not too bright on the idea of having a back-door into the 3/9 o'clock bases from the main. That spells disaster. If I did that, I would have to replace the LOS in those bases with destructible rocks to fortify it.
Looks very nice, and could work great in a tournament. Why don't I give you a PM and we can talk about it, I'm a CraftCup Admin and I think we would love to have more user created maps
One of the changes I am working on right now is reducing the size of the back-door to the natural. This isn't official, but it is an idea worth mentioning to the community.
It can be walled off with 1 rax, with destructible rocks as the other half of the wall, but can be destroyed by whoever to create a more open path.
On May 19 2011 14:32 IronManSC wrote: One of the changes I am working on right now is reducing the size of the back-door to the natural. This isn't official, but it is an idea worth mentioning to the community.
It can be walled off with 1 rax, with destructible rocks as the other half of the wall, but can be destroyed by whoever to create a more open path.
What do you guys think?
I would consider swapping the place of the opening (where the barracks now is) and the rocks. Therefore stationary defenses in the corner between the 2entrences don't protect the rocks. and maybe put them a little bit more towards the gold base, for the same reason.
at the moment it just feels like you can't use the backdoor at all if you have a low range army (zerg, zealot heavy Protoss) if a siegetank is somewhere behind it.
It's a good analysis. Before, the back-door choke was as large as the main entrance is, but I've had terrans complain to me that it's not even worth fast expanding because they have to build one too many bunkers.
It would be fine if the ramp was closer to the CC. You should put the gas by the main with the minerals in the back more like on Shattered. Then Terran can wall off to their CC just like on XNC.
On May 20 2011 01:54 Gfire wrote: It would be fine if the ramp was closer to the CC. You should put the gas by the main with the minerals in the back more like on Shattered. Then Terran can wall off to their CC just like on XNC.
Um... I agree that the side entrance should be smaller than the frontal choke. But the rocks might not be necessary if you adjust the natural so players can properly wall. The spot for the CC at the nat should be closer to the ramp.
1.1 is now available on battle.net! Just search for Scars, Version 1.1
1.1 Changes:
1) I revamped the bottom left and top right bases, as well as the back-door to the naturals. This is the new layout in 1.1:
-- The 3rd (or 4th) is slightly closer to the natural. -- The backdoor to the natural is blocked by rocks, allowing for multiple attack paths as well as an easier and safer path to the 3rd (or 4th). -- The gold ramp facing the 2 bases was taken out. This caused the gold base to be too safe and too easy to reinforce. Either way, if the gold is attacked, there is a possible escape route leading back to your bases.
2) LOS was added to the left and right of the center area to protect the center bases more:
1.1 Center:
--The LOS is just out of reach of the XWT vision, like so:
Other fixes:
• Pathing re-done to allow for drops to be made on the cliffs by the 9/3 o'clock bases, as well as the 7/2 o'clock bases.
• Lighting has been worked, and the map is now brighter when playing.
• Other lighting features were added to enhance visual effects.
• Foliage re-done
• Several more doodads were added
• Textures were polished in various places
Any other comments or feedback? Please let me know here or add me on SC2! IronMan.714
The gold only has 5 patches and one geyser, I think it's fine on the high ground.
I still don't understand the addition of the curtain... Doesn't this decrease the amount of safe movement outside of the Watchtower vision and thus make center control even more over-important? What was the concept being adding that?
With the removal of over half of the openness of the natural, perhaps you should widen the front choke leading into it.
The curtain is fine. I will leave that up to the testers.
I will think about widening the front choke, but not 100% positive.
I am also thinking about adding either a path blocked by rocks going between the trees (connecting the middle to the island) as a possible escape route, or adding some high ground connecting it near the corner base. I'm not sure what to do.
The ramp was taken out because it created a much easier path to reinforce the gold, thus making it safer to take, and giving a crutch to terran mobility. With the ramp removed, there are still 2 possible ways to attack it, and 2 possible ways to escape, both which lead back to your bases one way or another.
The tank range from the high ground gold expansion only reaches the vespene geyser.
I really like those destructible rocks there, Iron. It allows a Zerg to respond to an greedy expander, and yet isn't entirely safe to FE to.
I would suggest measuring the choke on The Shattered Temple and making the natural choke a little closer to that. I think the current choke is even tighter than the one on The Lost Temple, which was adjusted for being problematic.
I like the golds on the highground as it is now. I haven't played it, but "on paper" it looks the best to me.
Can a siege tank hit a CC, Nexus, or Hatch from the high ground at the third?
On May 21 2011 05:23 FoxyMayhem wrote: I really like those destructible rocks there, Iron. It allows a Zerg to respond to an greedy expander, and yet isn't entirely safe to FE to.
I would suggest measuring the choke on The Shattered Temple and making the natural choke a little closer to that. I think the current choke is even tighter than the one on The Lost Temple, which was adjusted for being problematic.
I like the golds on the highground as it is now. I haven't played it, but "on paper" it looks the best to me.
Can a siege tank hit a CC, Nexus, or Hatch from the high ground at the third?
Yes, I like those rocks there too
I have plans to widen the main choke a little more that leads into the natural. I'm also going to trim that little piece of high ground that extends inward toward it to prevent heavy static defenses.
The golds are being re-worked. They will still be there, but the ramps are just changing places to help terran late game mobility more. The bases will still be easy to take, but because it's still far away from most of the bases, it's still risky.
I've done lots of testing on siege, thor, and colossi range. A siege tank can only hit the vespene geyser from the gold high ground. At the 9 and 3 bases (if you notice the high ground there as well, which is pathable), the siege tank can hit some workers, a geyser, and a hatch/nexus/CC, but not a thor. I think it is only fair that terrans can gain a small advantage on such a late-game base.
It is pathable, but It will probably be taken out or remain there, considering the fact that because i'm repositioning the ramps at the gold, it will require me to position the corner bases a little more toward the natural while rotating the minerals outward from the cliffs, making it harder to siege it.... if that makes sense.
Once this map is entirely finished I am thinking about changing the name... Temple Basin sounded good
Okay, 1.2 patch is up and running on battle.net! Here are the 1.2 changes: 1) I revamped the corner bases yet again. This time, I think it will work more efficiently and may help terran late game mobility.
BEFORE:
AFTER:
--The main chokes into the naturals were widened a little. --The corners of the main bases went too far into the choke, and they've been trimmed off to prevent heavy static defense turtling; overprotecting the natural. --The gold ramps were re-positioned to be more friendly, but are still at risk. --The corner bases were, once again, moved a little closer to the natural, and are now much more out of reach of the high ground next to it. --In the center, the water was increased slightly to close up the extremely large gap of open ground.
2) The center LOS was re-worked again.
BEFORE:
AFTER:
--The chokes between the trees and center was slightly widened to allow for easier passage and concealment from XWT vision. This also reduces the distance to the island base slightly.
3) Foliage, textures, and pathing were fixed.
Special thanks to iGrok for most of the feedback concerning the 1.2 changes.
Search for 'Scars' (version 1.2) on battle.net to test play it. Comments? More feedback? Let me know!
i feel like the gold highground area could be shaped a little more aesthetically pleasing :D right now you can still see you have been removing ramps there
Considering the risk, do you think the gold needs rocks blocking it? (I think the platform is plenty ascetically pleasing, but that may just be me.)
One other thing, Iron: you're reply to Trufflez was defensive and didn't explain the reasoning behind a single geyser at all. Beside, I really don't think he was criticising you. All Blizzard maps have 2 gas, so it's a pretty natural question. Are you doing it just because other map makers are? If now, what is the strategy behind it?
1.4 is released, and it will probably be the final patch of this map. All screenshots in the OP are updated. I apologize if they don't resize anytime soon.
1.4 Fixes:
1) Concerning the natural bases, some land patches were connecting to the main, allowing reaper harassment to reign. These little patches of land have been removed to prevent reapers from causing too much damage too easily.
2) Concerning the center bases, reapers and colossi were taking advantage of the cliffs. Gaps were filled in around the center bases to reduce the amount of space colossi and reapers can travel up and down the cliffs.
3) The gold base was slightly widened behind the mineral line to allow for a any sort of defense. They also have been given one more geyser and one additional mineral node. The gold bases now have 6 mineral nodes and 2 vespene geysers.
4) Fog, rain, foliage, and pathing has been updated.
5) Aesthetics have been updated in numerous areas around the map.
To IronManSC and the constructive, helpful posters in this thread: I heartily approve!
This is a cool map and this thread is exactly what a good map thread should read like. I guess I just missed it whenever it bubbles up because I just went from start to finish.
Well, you being a map maker and judge yourself, is there anything you think I could work on? I told some people that today was the last publish (1.4) but i'm willing to do yet another if it means a more balanced map will come out of it. Right now it's 1.7 because I had to do some graphics updates that took several publishing attempts.
The 'how to' page for the analyzer is confusing to me. I can't figure it out. I've tried on 2 other maps and it's just not clicking for me. If you or another trusted map maker is willing, i will send you the file.
On May 26 2011 01:50 IronManSC wrote: The 'how to' page for the analyzer is confusing to me. I can't figure it out. I've tried on 2 other maps and it's just not clicking for me. If you or another trusted map maker is willing, i will send you the file.
This is my fault, I've been working on the next release for the analyzer for what seems like eons. One of the goals with the new release is that it will be configured to work "out of the box" with some simpler instructions. I'll try to make some more time for that... as always... :p
Also, on topic for Scars: I think I like the gold base standardized (until there is a very clear reason why not to do it) and what I want to see now is play data! That's something we don't have the luxury to do en masse for the Map of the Month, for instance. Get good players to play on your map and post the replays! The gold star version of this is if you watch the replays and give a brief summary of what strategies the players used and how it turned out. Even if a player loses or wins you can see whether a strategy seems to be working nicely or abusing the crap out of your map.
Alright, I went through some replays and I grabbed a handful of them. Most of them are diamond and master replays, and a couple of them I end up playing in. Lots of unique play styles in them! Enjoy!
On May 26 2011 03:04 IronManSC wrote: Alright, I went through some replays and I grabbed a handful of them. Most of them are diamond and master replays, and a couple of them I end up playing in. Lots of unique play styles in them! Enjoy!
Replays are right under the Introduction.
Excellent! You can use my public address: dimfish.motm@gmail.com and I'll analyze that pig, no problem.
This is a very cool map. I just have one issue with it. The area behind the main mineral line is VERY open air, making air harassment incredibly potent. When combined with a fairly long distance between main and nat, it becomes very difficult to hold air harassment and pressure. This might constitute imbalance.
I don't think that's a worry with a little simcity. There are a lot of successful pro maps that have a similar amount of space behind.
Just tossing this out there: with the new gold design, it seems to me like the dividing center LOS serve less of a purpose, and the map would benifit from them being removed.
I really like how it's working. Very nice, IronManSC!
Sorry about this, I ment to post my thoughts for you to think about a couple days ago but things got busy and I ended up forgetting about it til today when I was browsing TL again haha.
I think try putting some LOS blockers on 1 side of the rocks going to the third, not both sides but 1 or the other. If you put the LOS blockers on the side of the natural it makes it a little less safe since you'll have to either scout it constantly or build a building over by it to see if the rocks are getting attacked. If you put the LOS blockers on the other side by the 3rd it means it'll be tougher for the enemy because they'll have to get closer to the rocks to get vision and thus might allow you to see them easily.
High ground that is pathable outside the 3rds I think would be nice. It makes the 3rd closer to the gold a little riskier to take so it might force people to not expand that way. Also it allows some better harass options for terran & protoss but wouldn't be that broken considering by the time you get a 3rd base you should be able to handle it most likely.
The last idea I had was adding a higher ground between the 3&9 o clock bases which would really open up the map a little more. This is something I wasn't so sure about but I kind of dislike that you can't go around the edges of the map and you are pretty much forced thru the middle. I haven't looked at any of the replays yet but if you have a big army pushing thru the middle you most likely won't be able to hide the whole thing around LoS blockers and therefore if you are pushing and the enemy is holding the XWT they will know it's coming.
Picture 2: (more of a random idea to think about) + Show Spoiler +
What if, everything in circled in the green was high ground and the gold was on low ground? Suddenly the 3rd is a little easier to hold because it's up on the high ground, but then the gold is a little less safe due to the fact that it's on low ground. This is just something that popped into my head when I was thinking about it, not too sure how it'd play out like this though.
Anyway that's all I could think of for now. If I think of any other ideas I'll let you know.
Although, it would be nice to have some high-ground bases... since everything is on low ground. Might make things interesting but i'm not 100% sure. I'd like more opinions on it first.
But, for balance's sake, and for the sake of having a safe 3rd (mentioned by several people and testers), i'll copy the map and put two and two together and see what people like more.
haha, again it's your map and I'm just throwing out random ideas just so you think of all possibilities.
Worst case, you could quickly just change it without worrying about textures/doodads and just see how it looks/plays out against an AI or another player. For all I know having a giant loop of highground along the outside of the map could play out poorly due to tanks and collosus.
Well with proper proportions I can prevent base-sniping from the high ground ramps (except for the gold unfortunately), and with LOS doodads it can prevent instant exposure to siege units. I'm working on it right now. To be honest, it actually looks quite nice. Will post update tomorrow so people can compare the two.
I'd prefer you keep it all in this thread so you'll have the whole record of your versions and the community responses together. Seems like on TL "when in doubt, don't make a new thread" fits the guidelines.
Hmm... okay thanks guys. I'm working on the aesthetics. I think this revamped version is WAAAAY better, because it makes the 9 and 3 bases worth taking (and easier to take), as well as having multiple ways in and out of there. The golds are also on lower ground, but still are vulnerable. Oooooh I can't wait to re-post it!
I'm very much looking forward to the new version... It's sort of like what I suggested before, but I think it will be better. Can't wait to see it to see exactly how it turns out.
Glad it seems you like my ideas. :D Hopefully it turns out nicely and can't wait to see what you end up doing to it. Best case is it makes it a lot more enjoyable to play, worst case you just revert back to how you had it since it seemed to be just as good of a map that way.
Lol it won't be up till late tonight or tomorrow... I have to leave for work in 10 minutes. I'm using your idea #2 and to be honest, it has turned out to be sexier than I thought. There were 2 main complaints concerning bases that I got from players:
1) The gold shouldn't be on high ground.
and
2) The 9 and 3 bases only had 1 entrance, which was bad in their mind.
With your second Idea, both of these problems are fixed. The corner bases, as well as the 9 and 3 bases are on high ground, and the gold is on low ground. The 9 and 3 bases have two entrances now (it's also much easier to expand to from the center base). The gold has good positioning but is still vulnerable to the high ground behind it (but, all in all, think realistically... are all players really going to siege a gold expo from up there on a path that's in the corner of the map? probably not).
I have the other version of the original map saved as a different file, but to be honest I think this revamped version 2 will be much, much better.
Sidian, I like you because your idea rocks and it put my original version to shame (seriously), but I dislike you because it required me to do so much work xD
Version 2 is now posted on the front page of this thread! I have added a brand new poll as well, seeing what the community likes more; version 1 or version 2 (screenshots for both so you can compare). Enjoy! All aesthetics will be updated soon.
Razgem was the original name. I didn't want to re-publish as 'Scars 2.0' because the original map version is Scars 1.6, so it wouldn't make sense. It's like overwriting it then.
I plan to re-name it once it's entirely finished. I'm thinking about the architexture... I don't know how to block certain paths with rocks that can change the metagame. Any feedback is appreciated. So far it looks like version 2 is in favor of taking over.
Version 2 will probably be the one that takes it anyway because in version 1, all bases except the main and golds are on low ground, which makes it boring and bland. In Version 2, more bases are on higher ground all over, so it makes it more interesting for base setups. On top of all that, people disliked the golds on the high ground, and wanted bases with more than one entrance. Both of these were addressed, which makes version 2 (in my mind) ideal and more interesting overall. I can't wait to beta test it I also plan to do more aesthetic work to it in the near future.
Looking good IronMan, from first glance I like version 2 better. I think you should make the cliffs by the golds organic instead of manmade because I think the manmade cliffs over there look a little out of place. I won't be able to get on sc2 and play tonight but hopefully tomorrow I can hop on and mess around with it and see how I like it.
Also, of course if I think of anything else I'll be sure to let you know.
I disagree with changing the cliffs to manmade. To me it feels distinct and prominent, and a bit like the area's from which you extract terrazine gas in the campaign. Which is good, considering how important those came to feel, what with the Tal'Darim going all viscous on you.
Why do you feel you need to make something unpathable? (Using the pathing brush is a better way of making sure units don't get stuck. Combining the pathing brush and doodads look and perform the best, in case you didn't know, though I doubt you didn't.)
Okay, concerning the man-made walls at the gold expansions, I experimented with the walls and how they interconnect and whatnot, and came up with the following:
Does this fix seem more reasonable for the gold expansions?
I'm also fixing the corner base minerals, because they look really funky in revamped overview picture. And you can expect more doodads and aesthetics soon.
@Foxy: I feel I need to somehow give the meta-game a chance to change and adapt depending on key points on this map. Some maps, like GSL Crevasse, have rocks in various places. If you destroy those rocks, shorter rush distances are available, and more paths become useful. If you avoid the rocks, the rush distance and attack paths is long and limited. I feel that I need to somehow do something like that to this map, although i'm just not sure how or where or what to do.
Hm, an interesting thought. However, I'll meet your "other maps" and raise you one: Xel'Naga Caverns, the highest praised and most played map, does not have a shorter attack path opened by destroying rocks. I don't think every map needs a shorter path like that, and your map has plenty of dynamic features already.
As for the cliffs, I'm not trying to force my preference on you. I would like to know you're reasoning behind adjusting them to natural though, because I feel like it looses the distinction and significance I mentioned in my previous post (features that will help people remember your map after first glance).
EDIT: Oh, that's mist and not water around the map? More names! The Sacred Plateau, Temple Apex, Apex Shrine,
Foxy, if I remember in your last post, you said "I disagree with changing the cliffs to manmade" as if you were agreeing with Sidian, who said the upper cliffs around the gold should be made to organic. That is what I did. They felt out of place. In fact, it was hard to adjust to them because the trees in the screenshot had to cover up the 'end pieces' to those walls because I couldn't make it look good.
With the updated SS above, the gold expansion looks a little more distinct I think. It makes it feel like a built-platform (in a sense).
As for the mist question: Around the edges of the map is water. All the holes within the land mass is mist and fog. It didn't make enough sense why there would be random pockets of water all over the map (besides assuming the builders poured buckets of water in there). I just want to make it look unique and real. The pockets in the center, however, will continue to have water, as I think that it just works with the center platform look.
Right now i'm working on some more aesthetics to give it a more destructive, yet 'homey' feel to it.
I have one question for the community. If you notice at the corner bases, it's all rugged, burned up, and destroyed. Should I change the water to lava in those areas to make it look better? Or should I leave it as water with fog?
I don't know, I kinda liked the way the gold was before. But it did look weird how the other side of the "hallway" also went down but with organic cliffs. Perhaps if this other side was partially organic high-ground instead (unpathable with some forest on it.) I think that would give more of that feel of those altars in the campaign which someone mentioned before. That would probably make it look pretty good.
It would potentially change the gameplay, though, giving a spot for air units to be, but it's not near the mains or anything. I think by the time anything is going on in that part of the map there would be plenty of spotting available.
I can still add those man-made cliffs back in next to the gold again on the high ground, but adding them on the other side of the walkway would be very difficult because there is no way I can blend in the man-made walls with the organic ones on that side, making it look a little awkward. I may just leave it the way it is in the screenshot I provided. I'm working on more doodads, lighting, and other aesthetics right now.
I will be changing the name soon as well, thanks to Foxy for providing several good name ideas. I named it Scars because I just didn't know what else to call it.
Alright, OP updated. I've decided based on votes and majority of diamond/master players in-game that version 2 exceeds version 1, so it will be made official. It is also re-named to something more appropriate: Aiur Plateau
I would highly appreciate a moderator to change the thread name to Aiur Plateau instead of Scars.
I meant, partially high-ground, fully organic on the other side. (:
Edit: And as far as the water goes, it actually makes less sense for there to me gaps that are empty while the outside is water. The water levels would naturally be even, and the wholes would fill up with water from the earth and from rain.
I had the privilege of watching Spanishiwa volunteer to play one game on my map. He played as protoss against a platinum zerg (we thought he was masters...). He schooled the plat with pure blink stalkers. Amazing game! Wasn't epic, but nonetheless getting a high GM player, who's almost a semi-pro, to play a random melee map is the best thing a map maker could ask for :D He said he liked it!
What do you mean "on the other side of the walkway"? The side of the cliff facing off-map?
I've thought a while longer about why I'm so set on having the cliffs be manmade, and I hope you'll pander me for a moment.
"Marketing" This goes back to what I said about the manmade cliffs on the walkway around the gold being distinct. They are distinct for the following two reasons:
A place for the eye to go: When marketers design a poster they have a specific point which they always want your mind to go to. If a person is strolling by the poster and glance at it, and all they see is an overly-busy sheet of paper, their eye moves on. In other words, if they can't immediately process part of the image, or know what part of it all is significant, they don't spend the time to inspect. This is why marketers design their posters and covers to have a single point the eye is first drawn to. Let me give some examples:
With Mass Effect, the eye is drawn immediately to the orange highlights and light near his shoulder. We see the star, Commander Shepperd. Then our minds begin to process the rest of the image, being please with what we saw initially. In fact, because of the pronounced features of the orange, we begin to see the image relative to the orange: how the people are placed, where the lines of the image flow, all on a subconscious level.
The watchmen poster works with a bit of an inverse, but we still instantly know to look at the shadowed figure, thanks to the black-on-blue contrast, and to look at the yellow text.
By guiding the eye it helps the viewer digest the image.
But, you don't need to catch people at a glance, do you? People are going to be analyzing the map, not browsing it. Well, yes and no: some people will only take a moment to glance at it. For many of these people, helping them digest the image faster will mean the difference from remembering it and not.
Also, and much more important, is the second element I've already mentioned about guiding the eye: it gives us a way to analyze the image relative to the point the eye is guided to. We know where to look first, and how to build our understanding of the map off of that. When I first looked at the man-made cliff version of your map, this is exactly what happened: my eyes locked on to the gold minerals, and from there I digested the changed to the map It worked fabulously. This will allow some (not all, as we don't all think alike, but this is a pretty common trait) professions to size up the map and understand it all the faster.
And a new map that they understand easier is a new map they're more likely to play.
But why did the man-made cliffs work so well?
The Power of Color Contrast You'll notice in the Mass Effect poster that it's the contrast of orange on blue that draw the eye. The same worked due to the warm-toned, brighter yellow of the man made cliffs against the toned-down blues, greens, and browns of the map. The same color contrast can be seen in the watchmen poster, with black against a bright blue aura and low blue of the city, and the yellow text.
Another reason marketers use dramatic color contrast is because it elicits emotion. This emotion will deepen the viewers initial connection with the map, and, more than any other element, commit it to memory.
Now, while the platform may make a little more sense being the only part with man made cliffs, when I look at the images you posted I'm lost in a sea of those muted greens and browns. The map doesn't mean anything to me emotionally anymore; it does not elicit the emotional reaction.
One final thing: the gold base had a cove-like feel, almost like a harbor and shrine, when the cliffs were man made. The walkway was "tucked behind" the gold, and the gold was "tucked into the cliff". Now it seems like a platform hanging off the main path, with -- for some hard to discern reason -- a big path arching behind it. With the man-made cliff made it seem intention, a place created and special. Now it seems incidental, non-critical, non-special. I loved that it was a "special little place". Due to the way one perceives the map relative to these focal points, the very way I constructed the map in my mind is lost, and now my eyes wander the image trying to understand in. And I can, if I force, but it's not that natural and emotional reaction I had before.
In light of these things, I feel it is more than worth a somewhat unnatural-looking seam on the cliff. It is, of course, your map. I'm only hoping to help you succeed. In the end, you must make the call though.
I tend to agree. I do feel that how it looks in-game is more important than how it looks in an overview image, in addition to that.
Having the levels of terrain connect does make it easier to see that they are different heights.
Nice work going to all that effort, FoxyMayhem.
I'm getting tired of people naming their maps after the tileset they're on... Aiur Plateau is a fine, albeit standard, name. On the other hand, it doesn't really seem to be much of a plateau actually, and that's kinda taken by Shakuras Plateau already. I don't know if that's the best name. Beats "scars" though.
Foxy, I won't lie... you prove a good point. To be honest, I agree that when those in-ward cliffs were there (man-made ones), my eyes immediately fixed on the gold expansions in all the pictures. It made it look unique, like a dig-site, or mining-site. I will definitely add them in, because you are totally correct on that.
The name remains as Aiur Plateau for the moment. If I desperately need to, i'll change it for the last time.
*Super Grin* I'm glad you felt what I was trying to explain. It's funny how much my mind kept wandering back to the question throughout the day, until I was pretty much driven to make that post! >o<
Hm, Gfire has a point about how the name feels a little "standard", althought after thinking through all those different name options it seemed quite appropriate to me, since I'd forgotten what "standard" or "plain" would sound like. In any case, you might consider make a pole for your top 3 favorite names, that could help.
I'm so happy how awesome this map is becoming! W000!
I made a couple doodad/aesthetic changes to the gold expansions, and I'm trying to come up with a new, unique name, since Aiur Plateau has been seen as stupid and "dude, there's already a plateau." So... Names people! -_-
EDIT: Part of me does like the name Scars though... it was unique and instantly made me think of this map.
Wow, Hallowed Scars is eeeeexcellent. My favorites thus far:
O The Fallen Isle O The Veil O Hallowed Scars
"The Veil" goes nicely with the fog effect, something that could be played up if the name is chosen. One method would be lowering the water around the outside and making it very dark, and placing fog over it, perhaps giving it an infinite feel, or, if you can see the black water, a sense of other-worldlinessl. If "Hallowed Scars" is chosen, you may consider placing lava in the cracks around the gold, giving some meaning to phrase "Scars". Don't know how it would look, though. Even just red shining up through there would be pretty cool, perhaps.
The one reason I don't like Hallowed Scars is that it could be harder for people to remember. Hallowed is not a very common word, even if it is awesome in this situation.
1) Scars of Aiur 2) The Veil 3) Hollowed (taken from hollowed scars). This has a definition "having depression in its surface" 4) Scars (original name)
I don't like the words ending with ed without a noun afterwards. And "Scars" by itself is too short, so I went with "Scars of Aiur" which is good enough.
Played a game on the map today. Not enough to judge it any more by than what I've already seen by looking at the pictures, except that that third felt nice.
I like Scars of Aiur from the standpoint of lyricism, but semantically it's pretty boring, and it doesn't match the map especially. Good option nevertheless.
If you want an alternative to veil, try pall, as in Spirit Pall or Gemini Pall.
[edit] I like where Hollowed is going but I think it'd be stronger with a noun, preferably something more abstract than direct. For example, Hollowed Empire.
I just want to let everyone know that i'm getting a head start on my next map, which will have a cataclysmic feel to it. Here is a sneak preview screenshot of what you will see (i quickly threw it together to give you the idea. detail will come later). Please keep in mind that It's not official whether or not i'm going to do it or if it'll really work out. But this is just giving the hint that I have ideas in mind.
On June 02 2011 04:37 IronManSC wrote: I just want to let everyone know that i'm getting a head start on my next map, which will have a cataclysmic feel to it. Here is a sneak preview screenshot of what you will see (i quickly threw it together to give you the idea. detail will come later). Please keep in mind that It's not official whether or not i'm going to do it or if it'll really work out. But this is just giving the hint that I have ideas in mind.
This is a pretty slick map. I would say it's near perfect aside from one thing: The placement of the gold is a little too safe for my liking. Riskier gold expansions are more fun! So, I suggest bumping it closer to the center. Problem solved! You're welcome!
This map is really great. I like it very much. The bases flow in a direction that inches toward the center which is love. There is an alternate route to take as well, which I also love. There are enough options for a player to choose from without paralyzing them too many options. I think it will cater to any play style. Big fan here!
I appreciate the feedback but I am unable to perform more changes at this time, since this picture is old and i've updated it (also with the help of iGrok) by altering the aesthetics, doodads, and lighting.
Altering the terrain yet again would force me to go another week minimum of testing in-game, and I can't afford to do that since not a single player has complained about the gold and corner bases since version 1. I greatly appreciate the thought, and mabye in the future it can be considered if HotS changes how maps are designed. But for now, it remains the final version that will be released tomorrow.
It's 1.1 because apparently I had to do a hotfix on some of the rocks (hate why something is always wrong!). Aesthetics screenshots are all updated as well as the overviews. Replay packs and analyzer photos are not updated and personally I don't plan to any time soon. I think everyone has a good feel of the map to know what it's like without replays or analyzers.
Fixes:
1) Thanks to iGrok, he helped me with a few more doodads, aesthetics, and lighting to give the colors and terrain a rich feel to them.
2) Golds were re-done aesthetically.
3) Pathing re-done.
4) Foliage re-done.
5) New Name.
6) The ramps leading to the high-ground 3rd (or 4th) were widened, and were given a larger set of rocks. This allows players to reinforce (or retreat) more easily.
A big special thanks to Sidian, iGrok, Gfire, and FoxyMayhem who have given so much of their time and effort into shaping this map to what it is. Without these folks this map would not have made it this far, so I am deeply grateful for souls like these. You guys are the true map makers
Enjoy guys!
On June 02 2011 23:56 Gfire wrote: Bandwidth exceeded. /:
It's exceeded cuz my photobucket account has too many photos so I made a new one.
I really like it. It reminds me of Xel Naga Caverns, but with a more interesting twist. I am worried that it would be to easy to defend the third by placing 2-3 tanks on that ledge, making you immune to any attacks on any of your bases shy of a full on assault.
Amazing you only released this map 2 weeks ago and to see how far it has come. Also crazy to see this thread has 150 replies on it with people throwing out their suggestions. The map does look very well and I do like that you kept the manmade cliffs by the gold in because seeing them in game they do make it look much nicer. I think I was just basing my opinion on the overview which I didnt think they looked too good, but definitely in game they look much nicer. It's a bummer because I'll be busy this wknd so won't be able to play any sc2 so I can't screw around on this map, but come sunday I'll for sure give this map a try.
About helping, hey it's the least I can do, I'm glad you took some of my ideas and turned it into such a great map. Now since this one is complete, better start your next project and hey, I'll probably draw up some ideas for you in that one as well.
Good job, IronMan & Good luck with future projects!
the map textures still need to have more contrast. right now its hard to tell the main for the rest of the map, (besides the highground.) The easiest way to do that is to "outline" the map where certain areas have dark>light from the outside in. + Show Spoiler +
here, i chose dark textures on the outside followed by red to orange to yellow. dark > light. you can also do reverse or be original... but atm the map just feels patched.
always look to blizzards maps first if you want to learn. (they generally have the most polished textures.) and are easy to follow.
haha i have to disagree, blizzard texturing is 9 out of 10 times absolutely horrible. there are rare gems like district 10 but most maps look like the creator didn't give a fuck. combining styles that don't mix well, having sloppy transitions, etc.
I think it is very rare to find a user-made map that has as good of texturing as the Blizzard maps. They're professionals for a reason. I have to side with WniO on this one.
I am just not seeing how or why it's difficult for you to see the main bases. They're clear to see IMO, and from what you're asking me you're saying I should reverse the texturing on the main, making it dark to light going to the middle?
well, you have the main at a good start,, it looks like youve lighted up the edges which is perfectly fine. (lost temple has a light>dark) its just that i think the map has too many of the same textures on all cliff levels. for instance if we look at steppes of war... + Show Spoiler +
Each cliff level has 3 very distinct styles. Temple like elevated bases, dark middle bog area and the naturals/gold areas have a nice plains look. Its VERY easy to tell what is going on in this map. if you look at the natural/golds the textures go from light green to dark green to dirt and is all done with great care. imo you just need to make each cliff level or area pop out more. (though you did a great job with the arcs surrounding the golds with the brown texture wrapping around.)
well i could mess around with the mains and make them temple cliffs/textures, and leave everything else the way it is. That might make it look better. It would be really hard to re-texturize the corner bases and 9/3 o'clock bases, since they are on high ground but also have 2 distinct texture sets.
Okay, how's this? I changed the mains to temple cliffs/grounds, giving a distinct differerence between the mains, golds, and all the other textures and terrain.
Hey guys, been running numerous tests on this map for the last few days and so far everything has turned out wonderful! Lots of great games were being played, and a lot of 3-4 base playstyles as well. No real feedback has been given so it looks like them stands as is until some major feedback comes in. Hope you guys enjoy
Hey guys I had to update the overview and the before/after pictures because photobucket ran out of bandwidth on me, so I had to re-upload it for the sake of anyone else who happens to try and take a peak at it in the future but can't. I've decided to not re-take the expansion/aesthetic pics though... too much work.
On June 22 2011 03:35 IronManSC wrote: Hey guys I had to update the overview and the before/after pictures because photobucket ran out of bandwidth on me, so I had to re-upload it for the sake of anyone else who happens to try and take a peak at it in the future but can't. I've decided to not re-take the expansion/aesthetic pics though... too much work.
Hi everyone, I just want to let you all know I am working ok Scars of Aiur once again and am making some balance changes - and I hope that the map will be more fun to play on. I am going to fix the third and add some extra destructible rocks to make the center (or forward 3rds) less open that will help terran and protoss players in the early-mid game. I am also going to re-work the lighting since it is rather dark and dense, as well as re-texturing the main bases since they look very messy. I will post all changes and new screenshots when I am finished.
On November 13 2011 04:28 IronManSC wrote: Hi everyone, I just want to let you all know I am working ok Scars of Aiur once again and am making some balance changes - and I hope that the map will be more fun to play on. I am going to fix the third and add some extra destructible rocks to make the center (or forward 3rds) less open that will help terran and protoss players in the early-mid game. I am also going to re-work the lighting since it is rather dark and dense, as well as re-texturing the main bases since they look very messy. I will post all changes and new screenshots when I am finished.
Excited to hear this, mostly because this map is what inspired me to go into mapping and so I'm really looking forward to seeing what you'll do with the map.
From only the pictures, this looks like a really good map to me. I love the pathways that could lead to some creative play. I wish I could play right now (supposed to be writing a thesis... ugh...) to test this map out.
Great work, and I can't wait to see the modifications you make.
On November 17 2011 22:29 TehTemplar wrote: Reaper play looks incredibly weak on this map.
Yeah that's actually a good point. Reaperscouts seems rly shitty on this map cos only way you can go into the main is right next to the main ramp where the enemy has his units anyway and it also seems like you can't cliffjump from the backdoor of the nat so you have to go through the nat choke to scout an expo or something like that.
I wish you'd make cliffjumping from the backdoor into nat possible and also add an alternative reaper path into the main.
Being able to reaper scout is important, taking it away just makes gameplay more restricted and also random (lack of information)
On November 17 2011 22:29 TehTemplar wrote: Reaper play looks incredibly weak on this map.
Don't be surprised if reaper play becomes more viable in the updated version. I have to work with the thirds in the corners more, then I should be done with the revised, newly updated Scars of Aiur.
Finished:
• Polished the textures • Re-worked the middle expansions (pushed them back farther into the mains) • Enlarged the pillars near the golds to reduce openness • The golds themselves were changed to open, regular bases • Took out rain, wind, and thunder effects (can cause lag) • Reduced the choke sizes in all bases except mains (also to help reduce openness)
EPT![[image loading]](http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2733/scarsofaiur.jpg)
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