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[M] (4) Shurik'n - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
August 03 2011 22:46 GMT
#21
Better.
A whole freaking lot better.
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
TL+ Member
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-03 23:54:45
August 03 2011 23:54 GMT
#22
Most recent redesign is insanely good.
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
Phried
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada147 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-03 23:58:51
August 03 2011 23:58 GMT
#23
Very nice looking, but it looks pretty T imba (lot's of cliffs and chokes = tank rampage). Is that just me?
FlopTurnReaver
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Switzerland1980 Posts
August 04 2011 00:14 GMT
#24
Wow this map has come a long way. Looks so much better now.
Check out @MapOfTheMonth on Twitter and under http://bit.ly/motmorg
LunaSaint
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom620 Posts
August 04 2011 00:22 GMT
#25
Oh wow this is super tasty. I wholeheartedly approve.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
August 04 2011 00:43 GMT
#26
On August 04 2011 08:58 Phried wrote:
Very nice looking, but it looks pretty T imba (lot's of cliffs and chokes = tank rampage). Is that just me?


I guess an open, single-level, perfectly square field would be better.

Tank positioning is extremely situational, and is often very fragile. looking at chokes/cliffs/ramps and yelling "tanks are imba" is not at all different from looking at any piece of land and saying "burrowed banelings would be imba here."
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
Phried
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada147 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 00:59:41
August 04 2011 00:50 GMT
#27
On August 04 2011 09:43 Chargelot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2011 08:58 Phried wrote:
Very nice looking, but it looks pretty T imba (lot's of cliffs and chokes = tank rampage). Is that just me?


I guess an open, single-level, perfectly square field would be better.

Tank positioning is extremely situational, and is often very fragile. looking at chokes/cliffs/ramps and yelling "tanks are imba" is not at all different from looking at any piece of land and saying "burrowed banelings would be imba here."


If you say so. I just think Z players will have a tough time in the centre area. Also to mention it looks as though one can hit the mineral line from the third base with tanks which could be pretty bad.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
August 04 2011 01:07 GMT
#28
On August 04 2011 09:50 Phried wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2011 09:43 Chargelot wrote:
On August 04 2011 08:58 Phried wrote:
Very nice looking, but it looks pretty T imba (lot's of cliffs and chokes = tank rampage). Is that just me?


I guess an open, single-level, perfectly square field would be better.

Tank positioning is extremely situational, and is often very fragile. looking at chokes/cliffs/ramps and yelling "tanks are imba" is not at all different from looking at any piece of land and saying "burrowed banelings would be imba here."


If you say so. I just think Z players will have a tough time in the centre area. Also to mention it looks as though one can hit the mineral line from the third base with tanks which could be pretty bad.


(if you mean the center expansions) The thing is, that would be a fourth for most sane Zerg players. Typically, we'd be speaking about a base that wouldn't be up and operational until the midgame to endgame transition, when the Zerg player is going for mass Broodlords. It would balance out nicely.

(if you mean the distal thirds) I can see if Terran spawns one base clockwise of Zerg, he would be able to siege in his main and hit the third. This should be fixed by enforcing spawn locations. Sorry for missing this earlier.
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
Phried
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada147 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 01:12:43
August 04 2011 01:11 GMT
#29
On August 04 2011 10:07 Chargelot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2011 09:50 Phried wrote:
On August 04 2011 09:43 Chargelot wrote:
On August 04 2011 08:58 Phried wrote:
Very nice looking, but it looks pretty T imba (lot's of cliffs and chokes = tank rampage). Is that just me?


I guess an open, single-level, perfectly square field would be better.

Tank positioning is extremely situational, and is often very fragile. looking at chokes/cliffs/ramps and yelling "tanks are imba" is not at all different from looking at any piece of land and saying "burrowed banelings would be imba here."


If you say so. I just think Z players will have a tough time in the centre area. Also to mention it looks as though one can hit the mineral line from the third base with tanks which could be pretty bad.


(if you mean the center expansions) The thing is, that would be a fourth for most sane Zerg players. Typically, we'd be speaking about a base that wouldn't be up and operational until the midgame to endgame transition, when the Zerg player is going for mass Broodlords. It would balance out nicely.

(if you mean the distal thirds) I can see if Terran spawns one base clockwise of Zerg, he would be able to siege in his main and hit the third. This should be fixed by enforcing spawn locations. Sorry for missing this earlier.


Yeah I meant the thirds for the player counter clockwise. On the overview it looks like there are doodads there but when I looked at the analyzer it looks as though one could easily hit the mineral line. I'm not entirely sure.

Also, I'm not sure how I'd feel about the opposite, being able to kill your opponents third hatch/nexus/CC with tanks from your main.
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
August 04 2011 01:54 GMT
#30
Nice looking map dude, well done! :D
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 09:26:50
August 04 2011 09:23 GMT
#31
I like it aesthetically. Therea are many paths around this maps, which is nice, but my greatest concernas are

1) too little open space in most bases once you build anythign there. Try place CCs at the tright locations and look at the map again. It will be cramped, I fear.
2) The star being tank imba, beacuse of XNT and several chokes controlled.

You could create more open space by removing the fourth base mineral line for each player and make the edge bases a bit bigger. Make the star smaller and get the towers on lower ground so that they give vision from low groudn to high ground.
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 14:24:58
August 04 2011 14:23 GMT
#32
So the tank effects are quite "big" from the center. We are talking about a forth base, which by design should not be easily defensible, but it seems like map makers must appease the swarm, or their maps are considered pretty bad.

Using the version uploaded to NA, which has only two towers in the center of the map:

[image loading]
Line of tanks in the center

[image loading]
The effective range of all these tanks.

[image loading]
The amount of tanks which can hit gas. NOTE: VISION MUST BE GRANTED FOR TANKS TO HIT GAS

[image loading]
The number of tanks which can hit the CC NOTE: VISION MUST BE GRANTED FOR TANKS TO HIT CC


The other sides were pretty much the same story. The tanks on their own can't actually hit anything. In theory, a few corrupters could easily hold off the air units required to give vision to these tanks. It's important to remember this is a fourth base, and the position leaves the Terran player extremely open to Broodlords. Simply because of how cliffy this map is, a mutalisk composition would already be the weapon of choice for most ZvT games, so it's not unreasonable to say Broodlords (even a couple) will be around by the time Terran is sieging the fourth base.

The only thing I don't like is how Terran can siege up inside their own main, and deny the third of a counter-clockwise player.

[image loading]
[image loading]

I would recommend playing around with the third, see how you can change this,
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DashedHopes
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada414 Posts
August 04 2011 14:39 GMT
#33
LOL bro this looks so much like crevasse
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
August 04 2011 14:44 GMT
#34
On August 04 2011 23:39 DashedHopes wrote:
LOL bro this looks so much like crevasse


It really doesn't. Play a game on it, it feels really different.
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a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
August 04 2011 16:48 GMT
#35
On August 04 2011 23:23 Chargelot wrote:
The other sides were pretty much the same story. The tanks on their own can't actually hit anything. In theory, a few corrupters could easily hold off the air units required to give vision to these tanks. It's important to remember this is a fourth base, and the position leaves the Terran player extremely open to Broodlords. Simply because of how cliffy this map is, a mutalisk composition would already be the weapon of choice for most ZvT games, so it's not unreasonable to say Broodlords (even a couple) will be around by the time Terran is sieging the fourth base.

The only thing I don't like is how Terran can siege up inside their own main, and deny the third of a counter-clockwise player.


Hi, thanks for your insight. The other user is right in his Crevasse comparison, there is some influence. But my map differs in that its wildly easier to navigate around/circumvent the middle. The area-of-influence for these paths can be changed with further playtesting, of course.

Indeed, through the many games I've watched on Crevasse, it frustrated me to see only a few games with flanking on a map that looked prime for it. As a zerg player myself, all the way back from BW, I wanted to punish zerg players who ignored map control. My map has many veins of opportunity for flanking but refusing to spread creep and having vision will hurt you in the long run. Look no further for inspiration than recent DRG or seal games to appreciate the power of an extremely mobile zerg army.

As for the third, there's no reason you are forced to expand in that direction. Indeed, in the situation of players spawning next to each other (say the 10 and 2 oclock spawns), the two inbetween bases (player 1's third, player 2's fourth) become the most volatile. That's to say, I haven't seen to many issues with a player making the fourth his third in the games I've played so far.

[image loading]

Thanks again.
starleague forever
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 16:59:22
August 04 2011 16:58 GMT
#36
On August 05 2011 01:48 a176 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2011 23:23 Chargelot wrote:
The other sides were pretty much the same story. The tanks on their own can't actually hit anything. In theory, a few corrupters could easily hold off the air units required to give vision to these tanks. It's important to remember this is a fourth base, and the position leaves the Terran player extremely open to Broodlords. Simply because of how cliffy this map is, a mutalisk composition would already be the weapon of choice for most ZvT games, so it's not unreasonable to say Broodlords (even a couple) will be around by the time Terran is sieging the fourth base.

The only thing I don't like is how Terran can siege up inside their own main, and deny the third of a counter-clockwise player.


Hi, thanks for your insight. The other user is right in his Crevasse comparison, there is some influence. But my map differs in that its wildly easier to navigate around/circumvent the middle. The area-of-influence for these paths can be changed with further playtesting, of course.

Indeed, through the many games I've watched on Crevasse, it frustrated me to see only a few games with flanking on a map that looked prime for it. As a zerg player myself, all the way back from BW, I wanted to punish zerg players who ignored map control. My map has many veins of opportunity for flanking but refusing to spread creep and having vision will hurt you in the long run. Look no further for inspiration than recent DRG or seal games to appreciate the power of an extremely mobile zerg army.

As for the third, there's no reason you are forced to expand in that direction. Indeed, in the situation of players spawning next to each other (say the 10 and 2 oclock spawns), the two inbetween bases (player 1's third, player 2's fourth) become the most volatile. That's to say, I haven't seen to many issues with a player making the fourth his third in the games I've played so far.

[image loading]

Thanks again.


Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about expanding to the fourth as a third and using the other third as a fourth (from the Zerg perspective). Even if it looks like crevasse, which to me it just doesn't, it feels much different. In the way that you intended it to! I've played a few games on this map now, and I really like the feel of it.

This is a very well built, and natural looking map, that plays quite nicely. You'd have a really good shot at taking MotM 8 if you sign up for it.

Keep making maps please.
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-05 17:38:55
August 05 2011 17:35 GMT
#37
Small updates.

(from original post)

2 watchtowers (down from 4) / Vision of center area only
Modified cliffing by 3rd's mineral, and near the ramp of the nat
Modified spawn location
Slight main area increase
Altered center gap design for increased middle surface area
Minor camera boundary change.

Pictures:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]

Large
Large Angled


starleague forever
lefix
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1082 Posts
August 08 2011 15:14 GMT
#38
i really love this new layout. and i really mean it! this map has sure come a long way.
the expansion layout concept is absolutely great it makes me jealous.
but i think this map could still use a little more work. change some proportions here and there and move bases a little to create a better map flow.
and of course the aesthetics could be improved alot, imho. by that i don't mean that you need to put thousands of doodads in there. if you want to have a more clean look that is perfectly fine, but you could still use a little more texture variety and at least create some visual highlights here and there. and again, just like in so many maps i see, the map borders look a little bit boring and could use a little more attention imho. hope that helps
Map of the Month | The Planetary Workshop | SC2Melee.net
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
August 08 2011 16:02 GMT
#39
such a small natural choke ):
sparC
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany162 Posts
August 08 2011 16:07 GMT
#40
are close spawn positions possible?
i think it would dictate the game too much.
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